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US student loans grotesquely high

And afaik there is no income limit for direct student loans themselves and you have to fill out FAFSA for them.
Since the student loan terms ABSOLUTELY SUCK (as shown in this thread) it is better, when you make enough money to be ineligible for government loans, to get an unsecured loan. At least then when you make extra payments they reduce the principle.

Moreover,
I understand. My point was that the $27k figure wasn't a cutoff for Pell Grants, but only the level at which expected family contribution is no longer $0.

When the expected family contribution is higher than the cost of the tuition, it all becomes a moot point and you are not eligible for any of the offerings.
 
The advice given to parents of prospective college students is to NOT shortchange their own retirement savings in order to pay for their kids’ college. College students can take out loans to fund their education. There are no loans to fund retirement—pretty much word for word advice I’ve read many times in pieces written by financial advisors.
But there are also 529 plans that can help save for your kids' college education in a similar way to an IRA. Of course, parents should not neglect their own futures to say fund their kids' private college adventures (assuming their kids are not the few who can negotiate a discount), but that is different than contributing a reasonable amount.
Yes, there are 529 plans. But one has to be in a position to contribute or to have family that can contribute sufficiently for such a plan to be very helpful. FWIW I'm not at all concerned about people not being able to fund their kids' private college costs. I'm talking about people not being able to fund their kids' state school costs. Local state university now is $20K+/year, taking into account only tuition, room and board, fees and books---no extras. That's a lot for a family to come up with.
This is definitely true. But poorer students are also much less likely to apply in the first place. FWIW, my kid felt very much like they were poor among that student body and ekected not to return to that school after the first year.
Yeah. It must suck being surrounded by fellow freshmen driving Beamers and Mercs ...
Not sure most of the kids had cars on campus, tbh. Also, tbh, my kid isn't the kind of kid to notice or care about fancy cars or designer...shoes/bags/whatever. It was more a sense of entitlement rather than possessions that bugged them.
 
Republicans are readying lawsuits to block Biden’s student debt plan - The Washington Post - "GOP attorneys general, top lawmakers and conservative groups are discussing legal options, alleging the White House’s move to cancel student debt is illegal"
Republican state attorneys general and other leading conservatives are exploring a slew of potential lawsuits targeting President Biden’s plan to cancel some student debt — challenges that could limit or invalidate the policy before it takes full effect.

In recent days, a number of GOP attorneys general from states including Arizona, Missouri and Texas have met privately to discuss a strategy that could see multiple cases filed in different courts around the country, according to a person familiar with their thinking who like others spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the confidential talks.

“We’re going through that analysis right now, not only in Arizona but other states,” Attorney General Mark Brnovich said later Thursday. “You have a dangerous precedent. Any time any president thinks they can unilaterally dismiss debt or transfer wealth from one group to another group, it’s a huge power grab. The ends can’t justify the means.”
Manufactured outrage.
Other influential conservatives — including Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) and allies of the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank — are mulling their own options as they ratchet up criticism of Biden’s debt-relief plan, two additional people familiar with the matter said. And a conservative advocacy group founded by a major Trump donor said it would file a lawsuit against the policy.

“The conservative public interest law firms in our network are exploring filing lawsuits against this. They are doing background legal research, trying to find out who might be the most suitable clients for them,” John Malcolm, director of the Meese Center at the Heritage Foundation, said in an interview. “They have to find a client with the standing and the gumption to take on a lawsuit. There are several groups in our network who are exploring that right now.”
 
yes. 30 would be better. back when the human life span was like 40 years, 15 years old was "Adult"... now that has doubled, the age "adulthood" begins can also be doubled.. .so, yeah, 30 seems right.
Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old?
I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old
 
yes. 30 would be better. back when the human life span was like 40 years, 15 years old was "Adult"... now that has doubled, the age "adulthood" begins can also be doubled.. .so, yeah, 30 seems right.
Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old?
I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old
There was an equation I saw once that worked like this. It's "is too old for you?"

rather, I think that you should see something like "x+x^(some_small_fraction*x)/some_number"

Adjust it so that the result is a value which will grow large as the number becomes greater than 16, but not so large as to make 20 appropriate for 17, or >21 appropriate for <18.

Y=x+F(x)
F(x)= a curve that meets the requirements.
 
yes. 30 would be better. back when the human life span was like 40 years, 15 years old was "Adult"... now that has doubled, the age "adulthood" begins can also be doubled.. .so, yeah, 30 seems right.
Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old?
I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old
There was an equation I saw once that worked like this. It's "is too old for you?"

rather, I think that you should see something like "x+x^(some_small_fraction*x)/some_number"

Adjust it so that the result is a value which will grow large as the number becomes greater than 16, but not so large as to make 20 appropriate for 17, or >21 appropriate for <18.

Y=x+F(x)
F(x)= a curve that meets the requirements.
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
 
yes. 30 would be better. back when the human life span was like 40 years, 15 years old was "Adult"... now that has doubled, the age "adulthood" begins can also be doubled.. .so, yeah, 30 seems right.
Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old?
I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old
There was an equation I saw once that worked like this. It's "is too old for you?"

rather, I think that you should see something like "x+x^(some_small_fraction*x)/some_number"

Adjust it so that the result is a value which will grow large as the number becomes greater than 16, but not so large as to make 20 appropriate for 17, or >21 appropriate for <18.

Y=x+F(x)
F(x)= a curve that meets the requirements.
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
 
yes. 30 would be better. back when the human life span was like 40 years, 15 years old was "Adult"... now that has doubled, the age "adulthood" begins can also be doubled.. .so, yeah, 30 seems right.
Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old?
I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old
There was an equation I saw once that worked like this. It's "is too old for you?"

rather, I think that you should see something like "x+x^(some_small_fraction*x)/some_number"

Adjust it so that the result is a value which will grow large as the number becomes greater than 16, but not so large as to make 20 appropriate for 17, or >21 appropriate for <18.

Y=x+F(x)
F(x)= a curve that meets the requirements.
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
 
There was an equation I saw once that worked like this. It's "is too old for you?"
The point is that these types of suggestions should not have legal force. An adult at least should not be deemed to young to consent to sex with somebody deemed too old for them by the intrusive nanny state, which seems what Gun Nut is suggesting.
 
I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old
I completely disagree. If somebody is above the age of consent (ideally 16, but at most 18) a person should be able to consent no matter how much older the other person is. What you are proposing, that there should always be some sort of limit on ability to consent, is inappropriate intrusion by an oppressive government. I mean, do you really want the government to be able to prosecute 50 year olds for consensual sex with 20 year old adults?
 
There was an equation I saw once that worked like this. It's "is too old for you?"
The point is that these types of suggestions should not have legal force. An adult at least should not be deemed to young to consent to sex with somebody deemed too old for them by the intrusive nanny state, which seems what Gun Nut is suggesting.
I am not suggesting an Autistic, hard-and-fast rule. I was responding to a specific question from Derec regarding what a jurry might consider in a statutory rape case.... not what "mandatory" lines should be drawn for minimum sentences or prosecution.
For example, today, in most states, there is no law that says you may not leave your children unattended unless they are a specific age. The laws are that the parents make responsible decisions that are based on the maturity level of their children at the time. This is not laid out with any formula, but there are guidelines and guardrails, such as what I was implying for the topic of statutory rape that Derec asked me about.
 
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
 
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
 
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
Which doesn't change the fact that any reasonable rule must be bidirectional.
 
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
Which doesn't change the fact that any reasonable rule must be bidirectional.
So, if I was going to just use x=y, the curve says "exactly your age"

If I use x=y*2, the curve says If they are double, they are too old.

So for 21 and 45, I would look at 45 first: 25 is less than 90.

Then for 21 I would look at 45: 45 is not less than 42. Get out of here you weird perv.

If you want to give wiggle room, the answer is to add that as a constant: mx+CONSTANT+curve.
 
I do not agree with this “curve” extending past 25. Or even 21, really, for the younger partner.

There are many strong loving relationships out there between partners who are 20 years apart. I am personally familiar with several. Outlawing their relationship would not be good for society.
 
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
 
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
Quantifiably untrue.
 
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
Quantifiably untrue.

Whether or not X majors take more Y classes (you fill in for X and Y) than Y majors take X classes is not a very good indicator of relative well-roundedness. So I don't think it matters much. I suspect that general education or distributional requirements are viewed as being more skewed towards "humanities" than science which suggests Jason's claim is probably true.
 
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
Quantifiably untrue.

Whether or not X majors take more Y classes (you fill in for X and Y) than Y majors take X classes is not a very good indicator of relative well-roundedness. So I don't think it matters much. I suspect that general education or distributional requirements are viewed as being more skewed towards "humanities" than science which suggests Jason's claim is probably true.
I'm sure they are viewed that way, but I've served on both curriculum and transfer equivalency boards pretty recently and can guarantee you that the out-of-discipline classes students are obliged to take are being trimmed to an absolute minimum acorss the board at most schools, with enormous pressure to explain how this or that requirement directly leads to a job. This approach does not generally favor the humanities, which are poorly understood by the general public. Take a student who is currently enrolled at a community college in California but knows their end goal is a STEM program at one of the campuses of the University of California. The only humanities courses they'll ever be required to take on the way to their degree are 2 english composition courses, if you even count those as humanities, and one course specifically in a humanities discipline (which could easily be something on the more STEM side of the social sciences as well). The rest are waived or otherwise evitable for STEM-bound students, as long as that's their plan from the start, because they are exempted from a full five courses of the usual GE pattern. Whereas, a student in one of the humanities disciplines has to follow the full transfer pattern, no exceptions, meaning however many classes necessary to get them to transfer level mathematics and 2 courses in the physical or biological sciences. It's also much more likely that their degree program will require further science education - for instance, an anthropology, sociology, or psychology degree at my institution require quite a few science courses. But it's rare for the reverse to be true, that a STEM field other than medicine will require non-STEM classes beyond what the general education pattern obliges.

I do agree that "number of classes taken" is not a very rigorous measure of roundedness, though. The poverty of science education at the primary and secondary levels should be considered, for instance. The M in STEM is pounded to death before college begins, but S is increasingly neglected and T and E all but moribund.
 
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