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US student loans grotesquely high

I agree that "out of program" classes in almost all programs are either being pushed out or trimmed out. Where I teach, the "gen ed" or "distributional' requirements for all programs has more "humanities" than science requirements. Having said that, I do know that most of the science programs direct their majors to take specific "gen ed" classes which suggests there is less generality going on, especially if the courses are designed with their majors in mind. I do know that engineering degrees are typically more rigidly defined, especially for gen. ed (ours has an exception so that they take fewer gen. ed. classes).

I suspect from experience and observation (which is anecdotal and skewed) but engineering students tend to be much more narrowly focused in the general outlook than humanities students.
 
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
This is true, in my experience. And they are required to take higher level humanities courses than humanities majors are require to take of tech courses.

One might ask, does an extra level of calculus make you as much more “rounded” as an extra level of History, Language, Art, Music or Literature? Calculus, maybe no - but biology, electronics or physics, perhaps yes.
 
In order to figure out the relative requirements, I knew I had to choose a school that was neither small nor Ivy League. Basically I had to try to pick a typical school, of which there is no such thing. So having recently left California I chose UCLA.

From the catalog

Writing I

Writing II

Quantitative Reasoning Requirement
One of the following:
• Biostatistics 100A, 100B
• Life Sciences 20, 30A, 30B, 40
• Mathematics 3A, 31A, 31AL
• Philosophy 31
• Political Science 6, 6R
• Program in Computing 10A, 10B, 10C
• Public Affairs 60
• Statistics 10, 12, 13

Foreign Language Requirement

Arts and Humanities
Three 5-unit courses, one from each subgroup:
• Literary and Cultural Analysis
• Philosophical and Linguistic Analysis
• Visual and Performance Arts Analysis and Practice

Society and Culture
Three 5-unit courses, one from each subgroup and a third
course from either subgroup:
• Historical Analysis
• Social Analysis

Scientific Inquiry
Four courses, two from each subgroup. One 5-unit course
from either subgroup must include laboratory credit. Other
courses in the subgroups may be 4 units:
• Life Sciences
• Physical Sciences

Final analysis
4 science (4 or 5 units each, minimum 18 units)
1 quantitative reasoning (can be stem, or philosophy, or poly sci)
2 writing
1 foreign language
3 arts (5 units each, minimum 15 units)
3 society and culture (5 units each, minimum 15 units)
 
Certainly the expectations for scientific knowledge of the general public are pathetically low.

Look at any TV quiz show; Contestants are expected to be challenged to hold incredibly detailed knowledge of Sports and Popular Music, sophomoric knowledge of History and Geography, and kindergarten knowledge of Science.
 
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
This is true, in my experience. And they are required to take higher level humanities courses than humanities majors are require to take of tech courses.

One might ask, does an extra level of calculus make you as much more “rounded” as an extra level of History, Language, Art, Music or Literature? Calculus, maybe no - but biology, electronics or physics, perhaps yes.
More rounded compared to what? It’s not clear from what you wrote.

My observation is that many scientists and mathematicians and engineers would benefit from more understanding of human behavior, and gain more empathy from reading more literature. Many with degrees in humanities would really benefit from stronger grounding in mathematics and at least basic human biology. I’ve been stunned at how little some Ph.D.s do not understand about how their bodies function—which is important to understand and participate in making good decisions about your medical care just as it is important fir artists and musicians and writers to understand math and finance sufficiently to understand and participate in a meaningful way I making those decisions for themselves.

Surely we all see the harm in legislators making policy abd laws about healthcare when they are extremely ignorant of basic facts about…let’s just go with human reproduction and pregnancy and childbirth and birth control.
 
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
Which doesn't change the fact that any reasonable rule must be bidirectional.
So, if I was going to just use x=y, the curve says "exactly your age"

If I use x=y*2, the curve says If they are double, they are too old.

So for 21 and 45, I would look at 45 first: 25 is less than 90.

Then for 21 I would look at 45: 45 is not less than 42. Get out of here you weird perv.

If you want to give wiggle room, the answer is to add that as a constant: mx+CONSTANT+curve.
You're still not rebutting the "standard" formula--I've always heard it as for not being a perv, not as ideal. And I think you're misunderstanding "linear"--while it's a straight line it's at a different slope than age, as they get older the permitted gap widens.
 
I do not agree with this “curve” extending past 25. Or even 21, really, for the younger partner.

There are many strong loving relationships out there between partners who are 20 years apart. I am personally familiar with several. Outlawing their relationship would not be good for society.
I do think it's a reasonable general rule, but it shouldn't be an absolute. If you're trying to date that far below your age I think there's a problem--but relationships sometimes form from proximity. We broke that rule--but neither of us even considered the other as a possible partner but proximity turned into our hearts having their own opinion of the situation. Also, our personalities are a lot closer in age than our biology.
 
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
Which doesn't change the fact that any reasonable rule must be bidirectional.
So, if I was going to just use x=y, the curve says "exactly your age"

If I use x=y*2, the curve says If they are double, they are too old.

So for 21 and 45, I would look at 45 first: 25 is less than 90.

Then for 21 I would look at 45: 45 is not less than 42. Get out of here you weird perv.

If you want to give wiggle room, the answer is to add that as a constant: mx+CONSTANT+curve.
You're still not rebutting the "standard" formula--I've always heard it as for not being a perv, not as ideal. And I think you're misunderstanding "linear"--while it's a straight line it's at a different slope than age, as they get older the permitted gap widens.
As Rhea points out, it needs to trumpet, not widen linearly, such that the range at 25 becomes fairly large. 25 and 40 isn't really creepy, but there can be really fucked up financial arrangements going on in situations where 18-20 year olds fall in with 30-40 year olds (especially LGBT youth) and flush 3-10 years of their life away like that, supporting someone who doesn't work, makes all the decisions, and who leveraged the relationship to get financial concessions.

I don't think I am misunderstanding what a linear relationship means in a function though, especially this one.

I would argue that even past 25, there needs to be functions of limitation on things like prenuptial agreements and financial parity on the basis of distant ages: younger parties need some manner of real legal (financial, not special criminal) leverage in the relationship, because they lack the experience that generates the foresight to see why some types of relationship decisions are otherwise self-destructive.

The trumpet could widen faster, at an earlier point, assuming the population at large has actually been through comprehensive life education on informed consent, financial security and parity, safe words, and the dangers of power dynamics in a relationship, and the population is adequately filtered against behaviors that violate consent.

We aren't at that society yet, and the GQP is actively fighting it as they are fighting all education.

So the best I think we can do is specify some curve over which a sexual relationship with a younger party implies some level of fiduciary trust that does not bind the younger party to the older, because the fact is, younger parties are often preyed upon in this way.

For fuck sakes I just had a conversation with my best goddamn friend about someone this is being done to right now, and my friend's attempt to extract them from the toxic place through an offer of a place free of... That...

There's just no legal structure protecting folks who essentially lose their family because they aren't MAN+WIFE compatible and their parents are shitty.

But that has little to do with student loans, other than the fact that seeking education for such persons is essentially also signing up for student loans, for such persons.
 
I dunno. My husband and I are less than a year apart in age and we’ve been married for 2/3 of our lives, together a couple more years.

I don’t have a lot of data points since I married young but at one point I dated a guy who probably was that magic/perfect ratio age difference—and basically he liked younger women because of his own insecurities and control issues.

My mom always said marry them young and raise them up right…
 
Lawsuit Seeks to Block Biden’s Student Debt Cancellation Plan - The New York Times - "A lawyer at a conservative legal group said in a complaint that he would personally be financially harmed by the government’s approach." - the compaint itself
Libertarian group sues to block student debt cancellation | AP News
A libertarian group in California filed a legal challenge to President Joe Biden’s plan for student debt cancellation on Tuesday, calling it an illegal overreach that would increase state tax burdens for some Americans who get their debt forgiven.

The lawsuit, believed to be the first targeting Biden’s plan, was filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation, a Sacramento legal advocacy group. It was filed in federal court in Indiana, one of several states that plan to tax any student debt canceled by Biden’s plan.

“Congress did not authorize the executive branch to unilaterally cancel student debt,” said Caleb Kruckenberg, an attorney at the Pacific Legal Foundation. He said it’s illegal for the executive branch to create the policy “by press release, and without statutory authority.”

Republican-led States Sue to Block Biden’s Student Loan Debt Relief - The New York Times - "The lawsuit accuses President Biden of overstepping his authority in directing the government to cancel as much as $20,000 in student loan debt for millions of people." - Rutledge Announces Suit Against Biden for Unlawfully Cancelling Debt – Arkansas Attorney General
GOP states sue Biden administration over student loan plan | AP News
Six Republican-led states are suing the Biden administration in an effort to halt its plan to forgive student loan debt for tens of millions of Americans, accusing it of overstepping its executive powers.

...
In the lawsuit, being filed Thursday in a federal court in Missouri, the Republican states argue that Biden’s cancellation plan is “not remotely tailored to address the effects of the pandemic on federal student loan borrowers,” as required by the 2003 federal law that the administration is using as legal justification. They point out that Biden, in an interview with CBS’ “60 Minutes” this month, declared the Covid-19 pandemic over, yet is still using the ongoing health emergency to justify the wide-scale debt relief.

“It’s patently unfair to saddle hard-working Americans with the loan debt of those who chose to go to college,” Arkansas Attorney General Leslie Rutledge, who is leading the group, said in an interview.

She added: “The Department of Education is required, under the law, to collect the balance due on loans. And President Biden does not have the authority to override that.”

The states of Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska and South Carolina joined Arkansas in filing the lawsuit.
However, the Biden Admin is confident that student-loan forgiveness will survive court challenges.
“Republican officials from these six states are standing with special interests, and fighting to stop relief for borrowers buried under mountains of debt,” White House spokesman Abdullah Hasan said Thursday. “The president and his administration are lawfully giving working and middle class families breathing room as they recover from the pandemic and prepare to resume loan payments in January. ”
 
I am not suggesting an Autistic, hard-and-fast rule. I was responding to a specific question from Derec regarding what a jurry might consider in a statutory rape case.... not what "mandatory" lines should be drawn for minimum sentences or prosecution.
No, you are suggesting something even worse. You are suggesting that a jurry[sic] should be able to arbitrarily decide that somebody's adult partner is too young for them and convict them of crime on that basis.

For example, today, in most states, there is no law that says you may not leave your children unattended unless they are a specific age. The laws are that the parents make responsible decisions that are based on the maturity level of their children at the time. This is not laid out with any formula, but there are guidelines and guardrails, such as what I was implying for the topic of statutory rape that Derec asked me about.
But you would extend the power of state to meddle even when both sex partners are adults, not children or even older minors.

This is the exchange:
Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old?
I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old
Emphasis added.
 
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
Quantifiably untrue.
From my experience, Jason is absolutely correct. It is also backed up when you look at required classes for engineering or science BS vs. say English BA programs at universities.
Can you provide some "quantifiable" evidence that what he said is untrue?
 
Whether or not X majors take more Y classes (you fill in for X and Y) than Y majors take X classes is not a very good indicator of relative well-roundedness.
What do you think would make a good indicator of "relative well-roundedness"? Other than your or Toni's subjective impressions?

So I don't think it matters much. I suspect that general education or distributional requirements are viewed as being more skewed towards "humanities" than science which suggests Jason's claim is probably true.
It is true from everything I have seen.
 
I'm sure they are viewed that way, but I've served on both curriculum and transfer equivalency boards pretty recently and can guarantee you that the out-of-discipline classes students are obliged to take are being trimmed to an absolute minimum acorss the board at most schools, with enormous pressure to explain how this or that requirement directly leads to a job.
I do not know what college or university you work at, but that does not contradict the point that there are in general more humanities classes required from an engineering or science major than science requirements for a humanities (say English) major.

This approach does not generally favor the humanities, which are poorly understood by the general public. Take a student who is currently enrolled at a community college in California but knows their end goal is a STEM program at one of the campuses of the University of California. The only humanities courses they'll ever be required to take on the way to their degree are 2 english composition courses, if you even count those as humanities, and one course specifically in a humanities discipline (which could easily be something on the more STEM side of the social sciences as well).
Why would you not want to count "English composition" as humanities? And why look at community colleges and not real universities? Generally STEM majors have to take more than this. I looked up EE/CompE engineering BS requirements at my alma mater. In addition to 6 credits of English Comp, students also have to take 6 credit hours of humanities electives, 3 hours of economics, and 3 hours or history or government. In addition, there are 6 credits of social sciences required (which are not humanities but work toward well-roundedness of curriculum). That is a minimum of 24 credit hours (out of 132 required for the degree) in humanities and social sciences, and there is possibility of taking more under "approved electives".

How much math or science is your typical English or History BA required to take?

It's also much more likely that their degree program will require further science education - for instance, an anthropology, sociology, or psychology degree at my institution require quite a few science courses.
None of these are humanities majors though. We are talking about things like English.
And why focus on transfer requirements. Just look at degree requirements.

But it's rare for the reverse to be true, that a STEM field other than medicine will require non-STEM classes beyond what the general education pattern obliges.
[citation needed] that it is rare, esp. relative to requiring math and science classes for humanities majors.

I do agree that "number of classes taken" is not a very rigorous measure of roundedness, though.
What would you use?
The poverty of science education at the primary and secondary levels should be considered, for instance.
Which explains the lack of roundedness for most humanities majors.
The M in STEM is pounded to death before college begins, but S is increasingly neglected and T and E all but moribund.
I think the T and E depend largely on the school school in question.
In any case, you have to walk before you can run, and M and S provide the basis for especially the E portion of STEM. T can be introduced in elementary school easily though, but you need competent teachers and funding for the "toys" used in instruction.
 
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I suspect from experience and observation (which is anecdotal and skewed) but engineering students tend to be much more narrowly focused in the general outlook than humanities students.
I agree that this view is anecdotal and skewed.
 
I'm sure they are viewed that way, but I've served on both curriculum and transfer equivalency boards pretty recently and can guarantee you that the out-of-discipline classes students are obliged to take are being trimmed to an absolute minimum acorss the board at most schools, with enormous pressure to explain how this or that requirement directly leads to a job.
I do not know what college or university you work at, but that does not contradict the point that there are in general more humanities classes required from an engineering or science major than science requirements for a humanities (say English) major.

This approach does not generally favor the humanities, which are poorly understood by the general public. Take a student who is currently enrolled at a community college in California but knows their end goal is a STEM program at one of the campuses of the University of California. The only humanities courses they'll ever be required to take on the way to their degree are 2 english composition courses, if you even count those as humanities, and one course specifically in a humanities discipline (which could easily be something on the more STEM side of the social sciences as well).
Why would you not want to count "English composition" as humanities? And why look at community colleges and not real universities? Generally STEM majors have to take more than this. I looked up EE/CompE engineering BS requirements at my alma mater. In addition to 6 credits of English Comp, students also have to take 6 credit hours of humanities electives, 3 hours of economics, and 3 hours or history or government. In addition, there are 6 credits of social sciences required (which are not humanities but work toward well-roundedness of curriculum). That is a minimum of 24 credit hours (out of 132 required for the degree) in humanities and social sciences, and there is possibility of taking more under "approved electives".

How much math or science is your typical English or History BA required to take?

It's also much more likely that their degree program will require further science education - for instance, an anthropology, sociology, or psychology degree at my institution require quite a few science courses.
None of these are humanities majors though. We are talking about things like English.
And why focus on transfer requirements. Just look at degree requirements.

But it's rare for the reverse to be true, that a STEM field other than medicine will require non-STEM classes beyond what the general education pattern obliges.
[citation needed] that it is rare, esp. relative to requiring math and science classes for humanities majors.

I do agree that "number of classes taken" is not a very rigorous measure of roundedness, though.
What would you use?
The poverty of science education at the primary and secondary levels should be considered, for instance.
Which explains the lack of roundedness for most humanities majors.
The M in STEM is pounded to death before college begins, but S is increasingly neglected and T and E all but moribund.
I think the T and E depend largely on the school school in question.
In any case, you have to walk before you can run, and M and S provide the basis for especially the E portion of STEM. T can be introduced in elementary school easily though, but you need competent teachers and funding for the "toys" used in instruction.
Your antipathy toward English classes is odd, but does not come as a surprise.
 
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
This is true, in my experience. And they are required to take higher level humanities courses than humanities majors are require to take of tech courses.

One might ask, does an extra level of calculus make you as much more “rounded” as an extra level of History, Language, Art, Music or Literature? Calculus, maybe no - but biology, electronics or physics, perhaps yes.
More rounded compared to what? It’s not clear from what you wrote.

My observation is that many scientists and mathematicians and engineers would benefit from more understanding of human behavior, and gain more empathy from reading more literature. Many with degrees in humanities would really benefit from stronger grounding in mathematics and at least basic human biology. I’ve been stunned at how little some Ph.D.s do not understand about how their bodies function—which is important to understand and participate in making good decisions about your medical care just as it is important fir artists and musicians and writers to understand math and finance sufficiently to understand and participate in a meaningful way I making those decisions for themselves.

Surely we all see the harm in legislators making policy abd laws about healthcare when they are extremely ignorant of basic facts about…let’s just go with human reproduction and pregnancy and childbirth and birth control.
My Dad had. PhD in Ichthyology. He was the science department head at a community college where he taught marine science, general biology, and anatomy and physiology. He still managed to be baffled by the practical application of his knowledge to personal nutrition and exercise.

Meanwhile I only have a M.S. in marine science and consider myself a relative moron. But since I am a “scientist” for a DNR I have to engage with the public a lot. We spend a lot of time and energy studying “human dimensions” which includes decision theory and such plus lots of surveys and public meetings. I am perpetually astounded that I have to adjust my message so much to try to convey super basic concepts; that people think I am “smart” on the topics when I am presenting to them the “layman’s” version of my own grossly inadequate knowledge. Of course then there are the anti-government types that think all scientists are detached egghead libtard morons that have only book lernin and are out to subjugate the masses by someone them from living off the land or having any fun.
 
I am not suggesting an Autistic, hard-and-fast rule. I was responding to a specific question from Derec regarding what a jurry might consider in a statutory rape case.... not what "mandatory" lines should be drawn for minimum sentences or prosecution.
No, you are suggesting something even worse. You are suggesting that a jurry[sic] should be able to arbitrarily decide that somebody's adult partner is too young for them and convict them of crime on that basis.

For example, today, in most states, there is no law that says you may not leave your children unattended unless they are a specific age. The laws are that the parents make responsible decisions that are based on the maturity level of their children at the time. This is not laid out with any formula, but there are guidelines and guardrails, such as what I was implying for the topic of statutory rape that Derec asked me about.
But you would extend the power of state to meddle even when both sex partners are adults, not children or even older minors.

This is the exchange:
Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old?
I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old
Emphasis added.
I feel like the crux of your response is around your categorization of it being "Arbitrary". Nothing about what I said is "Arbritrary" in any way... It was explicit.. it was dependant... it was contextual... not a thing "Arbritrary" about it... Something like the speed limit on a highway is pretty much "Arbitrary"... as it is based on something that only very loosely applies to every single car on the road. What I said is nothing like that.. it would be more like an individual speed limit on the highway, based on the type of car and demonstrated skill of the driver.. maybe also the weather... A Jury considers multiple things about the "partnership" (individual age, age difference, maturity, context), and only one thing about a speeding ticket... your speed.
My thing was not arbitrary at all.
 
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