• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Video: the incoherence of omnipotence

 
 
 
Underseer

Underseer

Contributor
Joined
May 29, 2003
Messages
11,413
Location
Chicago suburbs
Basic Beliefs
atheism, resistentialism


Theist: God exists and is omnipotent.
Atheist: What do you mean by omnipotent?
(Hilarity ensues)

AntiCitizenX explores the different definitions of omnipotence used by religious philosophers.

Definition 1: logically incoherent, and would make the existence of God impossible
Definition 2: logically incoherent, and would make the existence of God impossible
Definition 3: An omnipotent God under this definition can possibly exist, but by this definition, every single thing that exists is omnipotent, including rocks. Rocks are omnipotent according to this definition.

What's really funny is that these are all their definitions.
 
Well there must certainly be some misunderstanding between what the theist understands of omnipotent and what some non-theists are proposing theists are saying.

It does seem as Mr.X suggests (sort of); to do with the language, in a manner of speaking,but thats all as your example above: Rocks are omnipotent by the 3rd definiton (but are not intelligent-creator-entities).
 
Last edited:
So, what's your understanding of omnipotence?
Does your definition of 'omnipotent' include intelligence?
Does it require being a creator?

Self-Mutation used to get himself wrapped around the axle with omnipotence. Not because he could not explain what he meant, but because he kept changing the definition to explain why God couldn't do certain things one might expect an omnibenevolent being to do...

Like stop plagues, gunmen, holocausts... Self's definition had to explain why God could NOT stop mass slaughter, but usurped a tow-truck driver's free will so that Self wouldn't have to walk home through a dangerous neighborhood one night when his car broke down...
 
The "limited omnipotence" definition suggested towards the end of the video makes coherent sense but it does so at the expense of omniscience, which is why I don't think traditional proponents of a tri-omni god would accept it.
 
Keith&Co. said:
So, what's your understanding of omnipotence?
Does your definition of 'omnipotent' include intelligence?
Does it require being a creator?

Self-Mutation used to get himself wrapped around the axle with omnipotence. Not because he could not explain what he meant, but because he kept changing the definition to explain why God couldn't do certain things one might expect an omnibenevolent being to do...

Like stop plagues, gunmen, holocausts... Self's definition had to explain why God could NOT stop mass slaughter, but usurped a tow-truck driver's free will so that Self wouldn't have to walk home through a dangerous neighborhood one night when his car broke down...
Click to expand...

The #3 definition was "does not violate its own nature," which as Christian apologist Alvin Plantinga pointed out in the 1960s, would mean that everything that exists is omnipotent.
 
So we don't have to watch an annoying video, why don't you post the fucking definitions?
 
Omni
Potent

This is so easy to understand.
What part of 'omni' needs explaining? It literally means ALL
There is no wiggle room. No exceptions.
 
I loved the married bachelor conundrum.
SCOTUS can change the definition of marriage in the blink of an eye.
Can Jesus have two dads? No. That would be a (skeptics annotated) error in the bible.
But the LGBTQI lobby says that having two dads is quite possible.
 
Can an omnipotent Being 'flaggle a snuffin'?
Yep. He can create a snuffin and then flaggle it perfectly.

...and He could do it faster than a non-omnipotent being.
(Just sayin')
 
  • Like
Reactions: WAB
Lion IRC said:
Omni
Potent

This is so easy to understand.
What part of 'omni' needs explaining? It literally means ALL
There is no wiggle room. No exceptions.
Click to expand...

Isn't it just an assertion, taken on faith? "God can do anything." So how does one test this claim?

Same thing with omniscience. How do we verify that God truly knows everything? For that matter, how does God know that he knows everything?
 
James Brown said:
Isn't it just an assertion, taken on faith? "God can do anything." So how does one test this claim?
Click to expand...
Through fulfilled prophecy, for one. "Babylon will never be rebuilt or reinhabited", though people have tried.

Same thing with omniscience. How do we verify that God truly knows everything? For that matter, how does God know that he knows everything?
Click to expand...
Well, knowing the future (see above) is a good start.

And I went to my favorite systematic theology book and found this definition: "Omnipotence - God is able to do all his holy will" (Grudem, Systematic Theology, p. 216).

Regards,
Lee
 
Atheos said:
Can he create 100% free moral agents who could sin but never do?
Click to expand...

Sure. Why not?
And since He would know they will remain sinless He may decide that was a pointless exercise.
And wouldnt that simply invite satan to dare God that He create more people like Job instead?
 
James Brown said:
Lion IRC said:
Omni
Potent

This is so easy to understand.
What part of 'omni' needs explaining? It literally means ALL
There is no wiggle room. No exceptions.
Click to expand...

Isn't it just an assertion, taken on faith? "God can do anything." So how does one test this claim?
Click to expand...

Why does omnipotence have to be tested?
We know the definition. A being is either omnipotent or not.
And if the omnipotent Being can do an infinite number of things, are you going to test Him on every one of those things?

James Brown said:
...Same thing with omniscience. How do we verify that God truly knows everything? For that matter, how does God know that he knows everything?
Click to expand...

Omniscience is a subset of omnipotence.
"To know" is just another verb on the list of things an omnipotent Being can do.
 
ruby sparks said:
Which does not include being able to ignore dares from Satan, apparently. :D
Click to expand...
Do you mean with Job? It was God who issued the challenge there...

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” (Job 1:8–11)

Regards,
Lee
 
Lion IRC said:
Omni
Potent

This is so easy to understand.
What part of 'omni' needs explaining? It literally means ALL
There is no wiggle room. No exceptions.
Click to expand...

Well, that depends. There are two main definitions of omnipotence which people use. The first is that it means he can do anything which is logically possible and the second is that he can do anything whether or not it's logically possible.

The confusion between the two is where you get into conundrums like the "Can God create a rock too big for him to lift?" question. With the second definition, he most certainly can and then he can lift it anyways and if logic doesn't like that, then tough shit for logic. It can bend over and take it because logic is God's bitch. With the first definition, God can create the largest rock it's possible to create and can lift as much as it's possible to lift, so the answer would depend on which of those values is higher.

They are very different entities, depending on how a given person wants to define it.
 
For the sake of the life of my son, I sincerely hope that I am never blameless and upright in the eyes of God.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom