Was Jesus a jerk?

[Unknown Soldier]

Jesus is often seen as a great moral teacher. Even people who aren't Christians see him that way. Thomas Jefferson, for example, was a deist but compiled a list of the moral teachings of Jesus. Jefferson didn't buy the miracles attributed to Jesus but thought that Jesus's morality was "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man." If I could ask Jefferson a question regarding his opinion here it would be: What drugs are you on, and would you please share some with me?

Well, no, I want no part of drugs that would cause a great thinker like Jefferson to laud the hate-filled rants of a violent and dangerous madman. That's what Jesus was. It's no exaggeration. According to his story, Jesus was a drunkard. He was obsessed with the idea of burning people if they disobeyed him. He threatened anybody who disagreed with him with destruction in hell. He knowingly led people into life-threatening situations for no good reasons. He was an egomaniac.

But what of those nice little love teachings that Jesus preached? Well, just ask yourself how loved you've ever felt by Christians. I don't feel much love at all from Christianity but often feel threatened by it. As Bible scholar Hector Avalos has said, the love we read about in the Gospel is not the palsy-walsy love we think of today. Gospel love is more like the love between a slave and his master. It's a love that's conditioned on obedience: Obey the master, and he will be good to you. Disobey the master, and he will do horrible things to you!

So yes, Jesus was a jerk. That's an understatement. I can think of stronger words, but I don't use foul language in public.

 

[steve_bank]

That is definitely one way to interpret the gospel Jesus.
.
A dleluded asshole who thought he was god. He went around being a pain in the ass calling eveybody hypocrites, not exactlty profound revelation or 'breaking news'.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

That is definitely one way to interpret the gospel Jesus.
.
A dleluded asshole who thought he was god. He went around being a pain in the ass calling eveybody hypocrites, not exactlty profound revelation or 'breaking news'.

And for a guy calling everybody hypocrites, Jesus sure made billions of them himself--vastly more than the Pharisees ever could have dreamed of making. He preached that hellfire awaits for anybody calling somebody a fool, yet he did so himself. Talk about hypocrites. If he was right about hellfire, then he might be there himself.

 

[Learner]

Do you both know the verse that says, " first take the beam out of your own eye then you can remove the speck from the other person's eye?

What you're trying to portray here, unfortunately is erroneous.

Jesus was 'not' a fool, and so therefore, logically by the meaning of the word...
... hypocrisy does not apply!

 

[steve_bank]

AsI have said in the past out in the word I generally respect personal beliefs, even when I don't get it back from self righteous bible quoting Christians. My personal ethics is one of tolerance. Black, white, brown, Asian, gay, straight, man, woman, atheist, theist, Big Footers, Flat Earthers .... you get the idea? I call it the Golden Rule, treat others as you be treated. It predates Jesus.

Jesus claims to be the son of a god, or people believe so based on the NT.

Jesus goes to a party and changes water to wine, how ridiculous is that as a display for the son of the one and only all powerful god? That is more inline with a Greek or Roman demigod prankster.

It really is hard to take it all seriously Learner.

As to motes in ones eye, us dastardly atheists don't claim any absolute moral superiority or righteousness.

If yiu take the gospels to be about one single individual, which I do not, I see a bipolar Jesus. He goes from abysmal lows to soaring ecstasy. Violent berserker in the temple to the pacific Sermon On The Mount.

He goes fasting in the desert and sees the devil temping him. Anybody fasting for 40 days in a desert would end up hallucinating. The kind of things ascetics do to induce visions.

The gospel Jesus is an irreconcilable contradiction.

 

[DBT]

A man of his time, place and religion playing a role that he felt was his Destiny?

 

[TomC]

A man of his time, place and religion playing a role that he felt was his Destiny?

Or, to quibble a bit, a man of his time, place, and religion who was fit into the role of Greek style epic hero by later people with agendas.

I believe Jesus existed. And, as an unorthodox conservative Jewish terrorist was probably a jerk by modern standards. But I'm also confident that He'd have been horrified by the heretical version of His Message that became Christianity. It's utterly pagan and oppressive, everything He fought against. But from Paul to the Council of Nicea, it was Greco Romans that turned Jesus into Christ.

I expect He's turning in His grave.
Tom

 

[Learner]

Jesus is often seen as a great moral teacher. Even people who aren't Christians see him that way.

That's something to keep note... as you mention, 'even people who weren't Christians saw him that way'.

Thomas Jefferson, for example, was a deist but compiled a list of the moral teachings of Jesus. Jefferson didn't buy the miracles attributed to Jesus but thought that Jesus's morality was "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man." If I could ask Jefferson a question regarding his opinion here it would be: What drugs are you on, and would you please share some with me?

Jesus is a conflict with most beliefs & ideologies that are non-Christian, and so here, for a deist with his/her own particular belief, - depicting an 'alternative' image of Jesus to the biblical convention, would naturally be required - an 'alignment' or possession of the universal morals /Golden Rule, matching the ideology of the deists belief.

Well, no, I want no part of drugs that would cause a great thinker like Jefferson to laud the hate-filled rants of a violent and dangerous madman. That's what Jesus was. It's no exaggeration. According to his story, Jesus was a drunkard.

Like the previous above... According to the deist this Jesus description is an opposition to the deists belief.

He was obsessed with the idea of burning people if they disobeyed him. He threatened anybody who disagreed with him with destruction in hell.

The obsession just as you are describing that way... is coming from those, who seem to disagree with Jesus who's the overall message, is to Love God AND Love your neighbour as yourself etc.& etc.

He knowingly led people into life-threatening situations for no good reasons. He was an egomaniac.

Humility was his game. Teaching that was the aim. So unlike the egomaniac you are claiming. He appeared 'not' like Kings with material wealth or riches, having many women at his will... nor was He like the Greek or Roman demi-god depictions, carved out physical athletic torsos and beauty. Jesus was non of those.

But what of those nice little love teachings that Jesus preached? Well, just ask yourself how loved you've ever felt by Christians. don't feel much love at all from Christianity but often feel threatened by it.

I can agree - there will be people who will feel Jesus is a threat.

As Bible scholar Hector Avalos has said, the love we read about in the Gospel is not the palsy-walsy love we think of today. Gospel love is more like the love between a slave and his master. It's a [.....].

Well I won't agree with this scholars pov, but Jesus never even owned a slave, yet He was called King. He washed the feet of his followers. This is a different Jesus to Hector's Jesus.

Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

 

[steve_bank]

A man of his time, place and religion playing a role that he felt was his Destiny?

Take away the supernatural nonsense a character like Jesus was not unique in the times.

Men who thought they have or had a destiny...Hitler, Caesar, Npaolean and today Putin.

 

[steve_bank]

Jesus is a conflict with most beliefs & ideologies that are non-Christian, and so here, for a deist with his/her own particular belief, - depicting an 'alternative' image of Jesus to the biblical convention, would naturally be required - an 'alignment' or possession of the universal morals /Golden Rule, matching the ideology of the deists belief.

The Christians playing the victim. They are against us because they hate Jesus.

It is not Jesus and what people think are his teachings, it is what Christians think and do to others based on what they read in a scant set of gospels. Christians historically had wars over dgfences.

If you want a gadfly pain in the ass moralist you can go back to Socrates. He went around poing a stick in the eye of important people. He was so good at influencing people with his logical skills he was declared an enemy of the state. Corrupting the morals of the youth.

He too was executed.

People hate god and Jesus is an old convenient Christian meme.

What are the teachings of Jesus? Other than the Golden Rule?

 

[bilby]

I expect He's turning in His grave.

He shouldn't be, he's famously not meant to be there.

 

[Learner]

AsI have said in the past out in the word I generally respect personal beliefs, even when I don't get it back from self righteous bible quoting Christians. My personal ethics is one of tolerance. Black, white, brown, Asian, gay, straight, man, woman, atheist, theist, Big Footers, Flat Earthers .... you get the idea?

From the many posts I've read of yours in the past' - I had already summed up the idea, for quite a while now.

I call it the Golden Rule, treat others as you be treated. It predates Jesus.

Yes, you'll find that in the OT.

Jesus claims to be the son of a god, or people believe so based on the NT.

Well spotted.

Jesus goes to a party and changes water to wine, how ridiculous is that as a display for the son of the one and only all powerful god?

It was a wedding, and Jesus only eased his mother's anguished concern for a very special occasion and important guests.

That is more inline with a Greek or Roman demigod prankster.

It really is hard to take it all seriously Learner.

"It is hard to take it all", well I could agree to that - since Jesus is opposite to those egoistic demi-gods.

As to motes in ones eye, us dastardly atheists don't claim any absolute moral superiority or righteousness.

That would be sort of contradicting - if an atheist says Jesus wasn't moral, then His followers would logically be likewise.

Besides. People can claim to have better morals, depending on the comparison of two individuals. Stating the obvious: one man takes pleasure in causing harm to others, while the other man is absolutely appalled.

If yiu take the gospels to be about one single individual, which I do not, I see a bipolar Jesus. He goes from abysmal lows to soaring ecstasy. Violent berserker in the temple to the pacific Sermon On The Mount.

Yeah, it's the way you tell 'em. Just another unrecognisable
Jesus.

He goes fasting in the desert and sees the devil temping him. Anybody fasting for 40 days in a desert would end up hallucinating. The kind of things ascetics do to induce visions.

Yes that could be the very scenario, for any Tom, Dick and Hairy, that's without having the likes of Jesus in the scenario, which would then be a different story.

The gospel Jesus is an irreconcilable contradiction.

Or a confliction to the opposers.

 

[steve_bank]

Motes in ones eyes?

Christians and other religious are singularly unable to be self critical.

It persists today.C Christianity attmpts to supress the rights of er free Anerican citizens because they think it is what god wants. Christianity has a a history of violence, slaughter, and abuse going back to its origins. It persists today.

The Golden Rule in different forms exist in all cultures.

I expect you get jazzed as you respond to the challenges we present you with. You get exciotedm maybe a liittle adrenaline. You feel good and rightous quoting scripture. Your faith is reinforced in the face of attack by the godless?.

Am I right?

The religious experience.

 

[Swammerdami]

Jesus is often seen as a great moral teacher. Even people who aren't Christians see him that way. Thomas Jefferson, for example, was a deist but compiled a list of the moral teachings of Jesus. Jefferson didn't buy the miracles attributed to Jesus but thought that Jesus's morality was the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man." If I could ask Jefferson a question regarding his opinion here it would be: What drugs are you on, and would you please share some with me?

Well, no, I want no part of drugs that would cause a great thinker like Jefferson to laud the hate-filled rants of a violent and dangerous madman. That's what Jesus was. It's no exaggeration. According to his story, Jesus was a drunkard. He was obsessed with the idea of burning people if they disobeyed him. He threatened anybody who disagreed with him with destruction in hell. He knowingly led people into life-threatening situations for no good reasons. He was an egomaniac.

So yes, Jesus was a jerk. That's an understatement. I can think of stronger words, but I don't use foul language in public.

I guess an advantage of not believing in any historic Jesus at all is that one can make up whatever fantasy gets one's rocks off, pretend that is the REAL Jesus, and then argue against!

For the record, all the mentions of "Hell" in the Gospel of Mark come at the end of Chapter 9:

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Many atheists like to ridicule theists with their hero worship and laughable beliefs. Based on what I've seen from some of the most adamant atheists right here on this message board, I'd like to offer a bit of advice from the Gospels:

Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

 

[southernhybrid]

There probably was some guy named Jesus who had a lot of influence back in the day, but since the NT was written decades after the death of the guy named Jesus, we really know very little about him or his character. To me, he sounds like a socialist when he tells people to give up their wealth and help the poor etc. But, seriously guys, these are all myths, some good, some horrific. We have no idea how many of these myths were close to what the character of Jesus promoted. So, some Christians cherry pick the worst parts of the Bible while others pick the sweet cherries. I know both kinds. Some are wonderful people, who do good works and others are haters who would love to make our country into a Christian theocracy.

And, speaking of Jefferson, the guy was a slave owner. Sure, he did some good things, and was probably an atheist, but I certainly wouldn't praise any of the racist founders of the US as morally superior, regardless of their beliefs concerning religious mythology.

Just be as kind as possible and treat others like you'd like to be treated. That's not just a Christian thing. It's part of all or most religious and positive secular philosophies. I wish there was more of it in our society these days, instead of the hate and division we see everyday.

And, Learner, I like two NT verses. "Judge not that ye be not judged" ( KJV ) and "The truth shall set you free". Leaving Christianity and realizing we are alone in the universe without any gods set me free from the crazy conservative Christianity of my youth.

Still, if a person needs a nice version of Christianity to help them be a better person, so bet it. I'm sure not going to judge them for that. Just don't take all that Biblical mythology too literally.

 

[James Brown]

Considered in themselves, the moral precepts of Jesus are sometimes interesting, sometimes poetic, sometimes benevolent, sometimes confusing, sometimes pernicious, and sometimes devastatingly harmful psychologically. None, however, are especially profound. If not for their tremendous historical impact, most would deserve little more than a philosopher’s passing glance.

In assessing the ethical significance of Jesus, it is illuminating to contrast him with the ancient Greek philosophers who preceded him by hundreds of years. The differences are so striking that few scholars care to place Jesus on the same level as such intellectual giants as Plato and Aristotle. Whether one agrees with these philosophers or not, they at least argue for their claims; Jesus, on the other hand, issues proclamations backed by the threat of force.

It is not my purpose here to “refute” the moral precepts of Jesus by demonstrating them to be ethically unsound. Since Jesus does not argue for his doctrines, they are, philosophically, nothing more than arbitrary assertions. And one cannot argue with an arbitrary proposition; one either accepts it on faith or ignores it.

--George H. Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are we talking about the same person? The guy that radically changed religion as we know it... but somehow only has a few things actually attributed to him, which ultimately simplified to "be nicer to each other"?

It is incredible how much one alleged person could accomplish... by doing so little and having even less attributed them. The guy, born of a virgin... who had nothing else to say about their life until his touring years in the last year or so of his alleged life.

Matt 3 - And Jesus was baptized and God was like "Dude, that my boy!"
Matt 4 - And Satan said, make a miracle happen... and Jesus said "No can haz mirclez!"
Matt 9, 14, 15 - Jesus performs miracles
Matt 16 - Satan says, but you said "No can haz mirclez!" Jesus ghosts him.

 

[No Robots]

The Greeks folded like a cheap suit in front of Jesus and Judaism. The Germanic and Slavic peoples followed, and now it is the turn of the entire world. All will bow to the Nazarene.

 

[Learner]

A man of his time, place and religion playing a role that he felt was his Destiny?

Or, to quibble a bit, a man of his time, place, and religion who was fit into the role of Greek style epic hero by later people with agendas.

Theists say the same thing. Like when trying to 'make out' that Jesus is modelled, on demigods from other various beliefs. Like Horus, which is an interesting one too, related to Dec 25th.

Anyway, the Greek style epic hero, is quite a universal style in concept - all demigods in beliefs worldwide, being part human and part creator... will always be defaulted the individual being unique with special abilities, different from ordinary men.

I believe Jesus existed. And, as an unorthodox conservative Jewish terrorist was probably a jerk by modern standards. But I'm also confident that He'd have been horrified by the heretical version of His Message that became Christianity.

Then as a Jewish terrorist, would he be horrified that the message for terrorism has become moderate and tame?

It's utterly pagan and oppressive, everything He fought against. But from Paul to the Council of Nicea, it was Greco Romans that turned Jesus into Christ.

Yes a genius approach - turn Jesus into Christ, although forgetting this will go against their own Roman gods. They certainly forgot the logic -sense, that by coming up with this master plan, they've also made Jesus a King above Caesar, which we know the term often attributed to Jesus...King of Kings .

I expect He's turning in His grave.
Tom

Now now Tom, you know Christianity still exists, because there was no body found in the tomb.

 

[DBT]

How do we know what really happened?