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We are overloading the planet: Now What?

the cause of famine isn't population; It's war.
And wars are often fought over resources like, oil, land, water, food. Oil and water seem like the next shortages.

Population growth is steadily slowing, and is projected to stop in the nect two or three decades.
I hope you are right, but I won't live to see it. And I'm not convinced
 
and how do we explain that 212 nuclear plants have been closed, and that few are being built?
The same way we explain that 2,400 coal plants haven't been closed, and that more are being built.

By your impeccable logic, this should be proof positive that coal power is harmless and desirable.










Or, just possibly, humanity doesn't always act in its own long term best interests.
 
As I explain at https://mindsetfree.blog/we-are-overloading-the-planet-now-what/, reduced births also mean less children per working age person. Christopher Tucker has shown that at 1.3 births per woman, the ratio of supported people (elderly plus children) to working age people stays about the same as it is today.

So maybe you didn't need to roll your eyes?
And a child needs as much care as the elderly?!?!
That depends. The first five years of a child's life, he needs a lot of care. And if you are going to raise a child and pay his way through college, that is a lot of money. Many of the elderly can still take care of themselves--or even be the president of the United States.

Imagine if the world needed to reduce to a sustainable population of say 1 billion in 150 years. Would you tell us we could not possibly do a controlled descent by lowering the birth rate voluntarily? Would you tell us that the only humanitarian option would be to keep pumping out babies until the population suddenly crashes from 12 billion to 1 billion due to mass starvation in a few decades? Can you honestly not even visualize an alternative?
What you fail to understand is that reducing the population to 1 billion will not save us.
 
Uh, no, the entire nuclear reactor becomes unusable after 60 years. (World Nuclear Industry Status Report 2023. ) 212 reactors have already been decommissioned. I don't think that a single one of these intends to use the existing infrastructure to support a new reactor. It is all scrap at that point. The intention is to level the building and clear the land to be used for a new purpose. But the process is very slow, taking decades. Some power plants may be left as permanent junk. A few are scheduled to keep the existing buildings for the next client, but I don't think any is keeping any of the powerplant equipment. ( World Nuclear Industry Status Report 2023.)
Just because political realities have kept them from simply being reactor vessel replacements doesn't mean it's not possible.

Besides, things being replaced now are from the early days of reactors, a modern design would be far better. That doesn't mean that replacement of the whole system always needs to happen.
And every country on Earth is making the same mistake? All are leveling their old nuclear reactors completely down to the ground over a course of decades, other than a few that are planning to salvage the building shells and nothing else.

And if you came along and said, "Why don't you just pop a hole in the roof, pull out the old reactor, and put in a new one?" they would all slap their foreheads and ask why they didn't think of that? Is that the basic gist of this?
There comes a point where the new designs are sufficiently better than the old that replacement is the right course of action. The reactors being replaced are an early generation.
 
Imagine if the world needed to reduce to a sustainable population of say 1 billion in 150 years. Would you tell us we could not possibly do a controlled descent by lowering the birth rate voluntarily? Would you tell us that the only humanitarian option would be to keep pumping out babies until the population suddenly crashes from 12 billion to 1 billion due to mass starvation in a few decades? Can you honestly not even visualize an alternative?
What you fail to understand is that reducing the population to 1 billion will not save us.
I don't think you addressed the question.

I think you agree with me that, eventually, when the accessible non-renewable resource extraction is very low, population will probably need to be below 2 billion.

OK, so if the population is 10-12 billion and needs to drop below 2 billion, I see two options: 1) Voluntarily reduce births or 2) allow starvation, deprivation, and resource wars to reduce the population. When we come to that choice, which would you prefer? Its not a hard question. Please answer.

Yes, I know you think that will be a long time from now, perhaps many millions of years. But regardless of the time frame, someday it will likely be a choice that needs to be made. Which would you choose? If faced with the choice, would you ignore the question?

Personally, I think we may be limited by resources to less than 2 billion people 200 years from now. If that is the case, then the time to talk about humane voluntary population reduction is now.

Regarding the assertion that reducing the population to 1 billion will not save us, yes, I understand that. There are two reasons why I think we should consider more aggressively asking for voluntary population reduction. First, it will reduce our footprint on the planet, and thus will delay the day of reckoning, perhaps even adding thousands of years. Second, when the time comes that the population does need to be at a sustainable level--without much non-renewable resource extraction--it will be much easier to keep under the limit.

I show the following graph on my post. The blue line is representative of the curve we need to keep below. The gray line is the population projection by the United Nations (which some people here seem to treat as the absolute, infallible inspired Word of God regarding future population level ;) )

safe zone Screenshot 2023-12-18 185306.jpg
Blue curve is representative only, numbers could vary widely. Population data from United Nations, 2022, Department of Economic and Social Affairs, Population Division (2022). World Population Prospects 2022, Online Edition. -- Graph Source: https://mindsetfree.blog/we-are-overloading-the-planet-now-what/
 
Oh, my!

You managed to find anti-nuclear propaganda on the Internet!

That must have taken almost zero effort.
I would hardly regard that as propaganda. It is a 549 page report by a team of researchers who include 2562 footnotes documenting their sources.

Can you please give us a reliable source that you prefer that gives us a better evaluation of the world nuclear industry status?

Because right now all we have from you is a bunch of statements by a person that uses an alias on the Internet and tells us modern reactors do not need emergency cooling water, for instance.
 
when the accessible non-renewable resource extraction is very low
What is this even supposed to mean?

There's a lot of assumption built into this phrase, much of it highly dubious, which you seem to accept as unneeding or unworthy of discussion.

OK, so if the population is 10-12 billion and needs to drop below 2 billion
It doesn't.

Why would it? How would that help anything?

Yes, I know you think that will be a long time from now, perhaps many millions of years.
The likely human population in "many millions of years" is zero. Few species survive that long, and there seems little reason to assume humanity to be one of the exceptions.
when the time comes that the population does need to be at a sustainable level--without much non-renewable resource extraction--it will be much easier to keep under the limit.
I don't think you have any grasp at all on either the massive size of the lithosphere, or the fact that the Earth is effectively a closed system. We literally cannot run out of anything*, as long as we have access to energy.








* Except Helium.
 
There comes a point where the new designs are sufficiently better than the old that replacement is the right course of action. The reactors being replaced are an early generation.
Yes, new designs could last longer.

The main problem we have is that most of the existing reactors are of older design. Thus, there are many current reactors that will have reached the end of their economical life sometime in the next 10 years. The World Nuclear Industry Status Report 2023 (p 74) projects that the number of reactors closing this decade will exceed the number of reactors that are currently in construction by 30. In other words, it is likely we will reduce from the current 407 reactors to 377 in the next 6 years.

And that is a big problem if we are saying Nuclear Power is our Lord and Savior. It's dying. Will it resurrect?
 
It is a 549 page report by a team of researchers who include 2562 footnotes documenting their sources
Counting footnotes, or pages, tells us exactly fuck-all about the quality of a paper.
And you consider your 0 page report with 0 footnotes by 0 researchers to be superior?
 
Because right now all we have from you is a bunch of statements by a person that uses an alias on the Internet
That's also all we have from you.

So...
and tells us modern reactors do not need emergency cooling water, for instance.
Have you refuted or rebutted this?

And were it to be false (it's not - reactor designs exist that don't require cooling water at all), would that render my positions less reliable than yours? Or reverse your burden of proof with regards to the claims you make in your OP?
 
Blue curve is representative only, numbers could vary widely.
No shit. The numbers are completely ficticious.
The line has a meaning. I define that in my post:

What population will the future world hold? In 1900, before oil and gas were widely used, the world population was 1.6 billion. One could make the case that we could not reasonably sustain human existence far above that level without the benefits of oil and gas. Are we limited to 2 billion people in the long term instead of the current 8 billion? Christopher Tucker suggests we should limit population to 3 billion (Götmark, 2020; Tucker, 2019). Aisha and Partha Dasgupta say the population should be between 0.5 and 5 billion (Cafaro, 2021; Dasgupta, 2017). An argument based on Ecological Footprint by Martin Desvaux says we need to get down below 3 billion people. (Desvaux, 2007). A number of people have estimates under 4 billion (Samways, 2022; Crist, 2022). Others, such as the Earth4All People and Planet Report (Callegari, 2023) say we could reach 14 billion with redistribution of wealth and huge technology improvements. Estimates vary widely (Dérer, 2018 ; Pengra, 2012).

All of this depends on our lifestyle and technology we come to use. With reduced affluence and better use of technology, we could have more people on this planet. Paul Ehrlich famously proposed a formula for our impact on the planet: I=PAT. This equation says that our impact is equal to the population times the level of affluence times a factor based on the technology in use (Desvaux, 2007; Ward, 2016). This gives us three levers that we could use to limit our impact: population, affluence, and technology. We will look at each of these in the sections below. If the total impact caused by this combination of population, affluence and technology-in-use is such that serious overshoot continues, then we risk a ghastly future (Bradshaw, 2021).

For now, I will show a simple curve that summarizes where the capacity limits of global population might be if technology improvements or affluence reduction levers did not save us. The curve is illustrative of Earth’s instantaneous carrying capacity as it could vary in time. We don’t know where the actual limits are.

The curve begins at some level above our current population, beyond which we cannot exceed without risk of imminent collapse. As time goes on the planet will degrade further due to overshoot, and that will lower the instantaneous carrying capacity. This also could trigger a collapse. I show this as a downturn in the blue carrying capacity line. This could possibly happen by the end of this century based on estimates listed earlier. Of course, better use of technology or lowering the average affluence could move this curve higher or shift it right. We will explore those options later.

The second downturn in the graph below represents a further decrease due to depletion of fossil fuels and mineral deposits. At that point we may find the instantaneous carrying capacity of the Earth drops still further. I show this possibly occurring by 2250, when even Mohr’s best-case estimate for future fossil fuels shows most fossil fuels will have been used up (Mohr, 2015). As we will see later, the available alternative energy sources might not rescue us from an energy crash at that point. Of course, we might find that substitutes really do work out for us and move that blue line upward and to the right. But for now, consider there is some limit to the carrying capacity of the Earth in the future, and that this will be decreasing with time as the planet is trashed and resources are consumed.

Wherever the blue curve lies, if our population curve exceeds the limit, we risk nature itself forcing our population to drop below the line.
 
Because right now all we have from you is a bunch of statements by a person that uses an alias on the Internet
That's also all we have from you.

So...

No, sir. I have repeatedly given links documenting my claims. You do not need to take my word for it. You can look at my sources.

You however, are a person who posts anonymously on the Internet and gives no source to document most of your claims.
 
You can look at my sources.
Oh, I have.

Paul Ehrlich famously proposed a formula for our impact on the planet: I=PAT.

Paul Ehrlich is also famous for his predictions:

In 1968, he predicted that 65 million Americans would starve to death in the 1980s.

In 1970, he predicted a North American population of 22.6 million. (The actual figure was about 280 million for the USA alone).

In 1980, as it became increasingly clear that he had been completely wrong a decade before, he doubled down. He made a bet with Julian Simon (an economist), that the increasing scarcity of resources would lead to massive increases in their prices. His failure is well documented; Here's the wikipedia summary of it:
Simon challenged Ehrlich to choose any raw material he wanted and a date more than a year away, and he would wager on the inflation-adjusted prices decreasing as opposed to increasing. Ehrlich chose copper, chromium, nickel, tin, and tungsten. The bet was formalized on September 29, 1980, with September 29, 1990, as the payoff date. Ehrlich lost the bet, as all five commodities that were bet on declined in price from 1980 through 1990.

...

As a result, in October 1990, Paul Ehrlich mailed Julian Simon a check for $576.07 to settle the wager in Simon's favor.

Being wrong is not magically turned into being right by quoting (or citing) a bunch of other people who were also wrong.

"I believe this, and I must be right because lots of other people, many of them highly regarded and respected, also believe this" isn't science; It's religion.

"I believe this, and I might be right because observing reality doesn't find any contradictions between my beliefs and those observations" is science.

Your (and Ehrlich's) beliefs have repeatedly and consistently been demonstrated to be directly contradicted by observed reality. Both of you have reacted by doubling down on your belief, when the scientific response would be to revise or discard those beliefs.

Posting a gish gallop doesn't defend your incorrect positions as well as you seem to imagine; Doing so by proxy just highlights the fact that you cannot defend any one specific and testable claim.

Your entire thesis lacks a clear, falsifiable, testable foundation that is the minimum prerequisite for it to be science. It's at best 'sciency sounding'.

"Scientific work has citations, therefore my provision of citations makes me right" works as well as a Radar aerial made from palm fronds.
 
Personally, I think we may be limited by resources to less than 2 billion people 200 years from now. If that is the case, then the time to talk about humane voluntary population reduction is now.
People are already engaging in voluntary population reduction and have been doing so for decades. We've already reached "peak child", which means that the world's population will peak this century, in line with the UN projection.

 
Personally, I think we may be limited by resources to less than 2 billion people 200 years from now. If that is the case, then the time to talk about humane voluntary population reduction is now.
People are already engaging in voluntary population reduction and have been doing so for decades. We've already reached "peak child", which means that the world's population will peak this century, in line with the UN projection.

Regarding the fact that population is leveling off, welcome to the thread! We have discussed this many times. See, for instance, this post--
https://iidb.org/threads/we-are-overloading-the-planet-now-what.27921/page-14#post-1154396 -- where I show the UN population projection.

Are you going to use me for a reference? ;)

Now do you care to address the point that you responded to?
 
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