What are we gonna do about white people and all their guns?

[Rhea]

All the mental health screenings and background checks won't make a lick of difference so long as there remains a vast, black market for buying guns in this country. If sociopathic revolutionary wants a gun, then sociopathic revolutionary will find a gun.

It remains an unanswered question in these debates:

If the number of legal guns out there decreases, AND the sale of guns are tracked and audited from manufacture through wholesale to retail and thence to private sales, AND the act of carrying an illegal gun results in destruction of the gun and stiff penalties

then where are on earth are you proposing that these illegal guns come from!?

The number of illegal guns out there is directly a result of lack of oversight on the gun inventory.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Make people liable for the criminal use of their guns. If you keep track of who bought what gun, then if a gun is used in a crime, there's a potential civil case against the registered owner. If they'd reported it stolen then they're off the hook, as well as if they can reasonably verify that they didn't know it was stolen because it was locked up. That way, criminals grabbing the odd gun from someone doesn't put them at much civil risk but if someone reports fifty guns stolen from him over the course of a couple of months, then you know that they're being sold under the table and not being stolen.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Why not give these people more guns?

 

[Underseer]

Why not give these people more guns?

Everything can be improved with greater gun availability, just look at the great success we had in our inner city schools! Why shouldn't we want to reproduce the same thing for suburban schools? Obviously, the gun-grabbers don't want suburban teens to enjoy the same safety and freedom that inner city kids get, because they're prejudiced against white people. [/conservolibertarian]

 

[Celldweller]

**Removed, incorrect article linked***

 

[Underseer]

All the mental health screenings and background checks won't make a lick of difference so long as there remains a vast, black market for buying guns in this country. If sociopathic revolutionary wants a gun, then sociopathic revolutionary will find a gun.

It remains an unanswered question in these debates:

If the number of legal guns out there decreases, AND the sale of guns are tracked and audited from manufacture through wholesale to retail and thence to private sales, AND the act of carrying an illegal gun results in destruction of the gun and stiff penalties

then where are on earth are you proposing that these illegal guns come from!?

The number of illegal guns out there is directly a result of lack of oversight on the gun inventory.

Suppose we'd have to start with our borders to the south:

http://www.inlandnewstoday.com/story.php?s=28068

200,000+ smuggled in annually from Mexico..

Those guns were most likely manufactured in the US, so how does this answer the question?

 

[Sabine Grant]

Sabine, you forget a couple of very important point.

What is legal is whatever the government says is legal. HIPAA was written by the government, HIPAA can be rewritten by the government. If a measure like this were to pass, mandating a mental health examination for anyone wanting to purchase a gun, I can assure you that the writers of the bill would carve out a special exemption from HIPAA and any other laws that might interfere.

Also, the New Mexico example shows how absurdly easy it is to get a warrant for the police to do whatever the hell they want, without regard for sense, reason, morality, or ethics.

HIPAA won't matter at all, because it is a law and laws can be changed. The moment the prospective gun buyer walks in for his gun buying mental health evaluation, his doctor-patient confidentiality would be the big exception to HIPAA. The law is what the lawmakers say the law is. That's why you shouldn't count on them to protect you from them.

You speak as if such reforms of HIPAA, patient's Bill of Rights and confidentiality between patient/health care providers would be supported by your legislative body and further passed without any fuss and further declared Constitutional by State Supreme Courts of Justice and the higher hierarchy of SCOTUS? Why is it that as a non American citizen I seem to be more aware of the content of the Bill of Rights especially Privacy Rights than some US citizens are?

 

[Sabine Grant]

All the mental health screenings and background checks won't make a lick of difference so long as there remains a vast, black market for buying guns in this country. If sociopathic revolutionary wants a gun, then sociopathic revolutionary will find a gun.

It remains an unanswered question in these debates:

If the number of legal guns out there decreases, AND the sale of guns are tracked and audited from manufacture through wholesale to retail and thence to private sales, AND the act of carrying an illegal gun results in destruction of the gun and stiff penalties

then where are on earth are you proposing that these illegal guns come from!?

The number of illegal guns out there is directly a result of lack of oversight on the gun inventory.

Suppose we'd have to start with our borders to the south:

http://www.inlandnewstoday.com/story.php?s=28068

200,000+ smuggled in annually from Mexico..

Those guns were most likely manufactured in the US, so how does this answer the question?

I do not have time now but I will try to find the stats showing that the majority of mass shooters obtained their guns legally.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Meaning that licensed physicians would know better than just engage in an invasive procedure of any type because a cop asks for it to be done on a person suspected of "having drugs".

I guess you missed the news about doctors forcibly doing invasive procedures against suspected drug mules despite not having valid warrants. As a bonus they bill the suspects for the examine unless they sign a consent form after the fact.

Link, please. Further the reason I am asking for a link is because I want to read a content which will support the specifics of this claim :

because we have medical doctors performing 12 hours of colonoscopies and forced enemas because a cop think that maybe possibly the guy being medically raped might have drugs

 

[Celldweller]

Sabine, Underseer- bad link posted on my part and good points raised on yours.

 

[Nexus]

Link, please. Further the reason I am asking for a link is because I want to read a content which will support the specifics of this claim :

because we have medical doctors performing 12 hours of colonoscopies and forced enemas because a cop think that maybe possibly the guy being medically raped might have drugs

Here is the first time I heard about it. There was a thread on the old board I'm surprised you missed it. At the time there were other articles highlighting the prevalence of this. While he did win a settlement of course no body was punished. Unless police murder someone in a flagrant and wanton manner and there is uncontrovertible proof of their guilt and sufficient public outcry only then they may lose their job and recieve a slap on the wrist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Remember that the burglars in the neighborhood were black. It's not that Trayvon was black, it's that he was the same race as the bad guys that had been spotted.

That supports what I wrote, because the Martin was black - the same race as the alleged burglars. You seem to omit the cacophony of character assassination of Martin based on purple "drank", his hoodie and drug use, and Zimmerman's own words. Hard to imagine his race was not driving some of that bs (if not all of it). It is unbelievable that anyone would even attempt to argue that Martin's race was not a factor.

You're focusing on race when that's not the right factor.

The important factor was that he looked like the bad guys.

And his drug use is most definitely relevant--most burglary is to get money for drugs.

zimmerman could see martin's drug use?

Zimmerman saw behavior that didn't feel right.

Based on what has come out since it certainly looks to me like he was right.

- - - Updated - - -

All the mental health screenings and background checks won't make a lick of difference so long as there remains a vast, black market for buying guns in this country. If sociopathic revolutionary wants a gun, then sociopathic revolutionary will find a gun.

It remains an unanswered question in these debates:

If the number of legal guns out there decreases, AND the sale of guns are tracked and audited from manufacture through wholesale to retail and thence to private sales, AND the act of carrying an illegal gun results in destruction of the gun and stiff penalties

then where are on earth are you proposing that these illegal guns come from!?

The number of illegal guns out there is directly a result of lack of oversight on the gun inventory.

The same place they come from now--burglaries.

- - - Updated - - -

Make people liable for the criminal use of their guns. If you keep track of who bought what gun, then if a gun is used in a crime, there's a potential civil case against the registered owner. If they'd reported it stolen then they're off the hook, as well as if they can reasonably verify that they didn't know it was stolen because it was locked up. That way, criminals grabbing the odd gun from someone doesn't put them at much civil risk but if someone reports fifty guns stolen from him over the course of a couple of months, then you know that they're being sold under the table and not being stolen.

The cops are after you because your car was stolen to be used as a getaway vehicle. You didn't report it because it was sitting in the parking lot while you were traveling.


Furthermore, this involves a registration scheme, something the gun owners are quite rightly afraid of.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Those guns were most likely manufactured in the US, so how does this answer the question?

I do not have time now but I will try to find the stats showing that the majority of mass shooters obtained their guns legally.

They probably did. Focusing on mass shooters is the wrong thing, though--the number who die to such crazies is actually quite low. You're more likely to be killed by lightning than by a mass shooter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Meaning that licensed physicians would know better than just engage in an invasive procedure of any type because a cop asks for it to be done on a person suspected of "having drugs".

I guess you missed the news about doctors forcibly doing invasive procedures against suspected drug mules despite not having valid warrants. As a bonus they bill the suspects for the examine unless they sign a consent form after the fact.

Link, please. Further the reason I am asking for a link is because I want to read a content which will support the specifics of this claim :

because we have medical doctors performing 12 hours of colonoscopies and forced enemas because a cop think that maybe possibly the guy being medically raped might have drugs

I don't know about the 12 hour bit but there have been cases in the news with enemas and even colonoscopies hunting for drugs--and lawsuits when the "patient" got billed for them.

 

[Mageth]

Those guns were most likely manufactured in the US, so how does this answer the question?

I do not have time now but I will try to find the stats showing that the majority of mass shooters obtained their guns legally.

They probably did. Focusing on mass shooters is the wrong thing, though--the number who die to such crazies is actually quite low. You're more likely to be killed by lightning than by a mass shooter.

Oh, that makes it all right, then. [facepalm]

In the U.S., about 54 people are killed each year on average by lightning.

151 mass shootings victims, 2012

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Sabine, you forget a couple of very important point.

What is legal is whatever the government says is legal. HIPAA was written by the government, HIPAA can be rewritten by the government. If a measure like this were to pass, mandating a mental health examination for anyone wanting to purchase a gun, I can assure you that the writers of the bill would carve out a special exemption from HIPAA and any other laws that might interfere.

Also, the New Mexico example shows how absurdly easy it is to get a warrant for the police to do whatever the hell they want, without regard for sense, reason, morality, or ethics.

HIPAA won't matter at all, because it is a law and laws can be changed. The moment the prospective gun buyer walks in for his gun buying mental health evaluation, his doctor-patient confidentiality would be the big exception to HIPAA. The law is what the lawmakers say the law is. That's why you shouldn't count on them to protect you from them.

You speak as if such reforms of HIPAA, patient's Bill of Rights and confidentiality between patient/health care providers would be supported by your legislative body and further passed without any fuss and further declared Constitutional by State Supreme Courts of Justice and the higher hierarchy of SCOTUS? Why is it that as a non American citizen I seem to be more aware of the content of the Bill of Rights especially Privacy Rights than some US citizens are?

Good question. I'm aware of those rights, but I'm pretty sure my legislators aren't. If it is in the name of safety, or if it to fight terrorism, or if it is for the children, then all of those rights I'm aware of are something our legislators would gladly squash.

So yes, an exception can be carved out of HIPAA for the sake of whatever the excuse of the day is. Look at all the other violations of our rights that the legislators have passed and the courts have upheld. Yes, if this exception is put inside a bill called "Gun Safety" instead of a bill called "Repeal HIPAA" it could pass.

Meaning that licensed physicians would know better than just engage in an invasive procedure of any type because a cop asks for it to be done on a person suspected of "having drugs".

I guess you missed the news about doctors forcibly doing invasive procedures against suspected drug mules despite not having valid warrants. As a bonus they bill the suspects for the examine unless they sign a consent form after the fact.

Link, please. Further the reason I am asking for a link is because I want to read a content which will support the specifics of this claim :

because we have medical doctors performing 12 hours of colonoscopies and forced enemas because a cop think that maybe possibly the guy being medically raped might have drugs

The New Mexico example. The link was in my post. 14 hours of invasive medical procedures to find drugs.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Remember that the burglars in the neighborhood were black. It's not that Trayvon was black, it's that he was the same race as the bad guys that had been spotted.

That supports what I wrote, because the Martin was black - the same race as the alleged burglars. You seem to omit the cacophony of character assassination of Martin based on purple "drank", his hoodie and drug use, and Zimmerman's own words. Hard to imagine his race was not driving some of that bs (if not all of it). It is unbelievable that anyone would even attempt to argue that Martin's race was not a factor.

You're focusing on race when that's not the right factor.

The important factor was that he looked like the bad guys.

And his drug use is most definitely relevant--most burglary is to get money for drugs.

zimmerman could see martin's drug use?

Zimmerman saw behavior that didn't feel right.

Based on what has come out since it certainly looks to me like he was right.

"behavior that didn't feel right??????"

Are you fucking kidding me?

Your behavior on these boards doesn't "feel" right To me. Does that mean I now know you are on drugs? No. No it does not. And I would be a damn fool to use my "feeling" to then pursue you with a gun.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Those guns were most likely manufactured in the US, so how does this answer the question?

I do not have time now but I will try to find the stats showing that the majority of mass shooters obtained their guns legally.

They probably did. Focusing on mass shooters is the wrong thing, though--the number who die to such crazies is actually quite low. You're more likely to be killed by lightning than by a mass shooter.

Oh, that makes it all right, then. [facepalm]

In the U.S., about 54 people are killed each year on average by lightning.

151 mass shootings victims, 2012

Learn the difference.

You are comparing dead to dead or injured.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Link, please. Further the reason I am asking for a link is because I want to read a content which will support the specifics of this claim :

because we have medical doctors performing 12 hours of colonoscopies and forced enemas because a cop think that maybe possibly the guy being medically raped might have drugs

Here is the first time I heard about it. There was a thread on the old board I'm surprised you missed it. At the time there were other articles highlighting the prevalence of this. While he did win a settlement of course no body was punished. Unless police murder someone in a flagrant and wanton manner and there is uncontrovertible proof of their guilt and sufficient public outcry only then they may lose their job and recieve a slap on the wrist.

Thank you. It is just terrible! Invalid warrant and resulting unethical behavior on the part of health care professionals.Any word as to whether the 2 physicians were reported to the State Medical Board and any penalties?

 

[Sabine Grant]

Actually, Loren, in your country I am more likely to be shot and killed as the result of a road rage incident than I would be in my country. Actually, Loren, in your country I am more likely to become the dead victim of any firearm carrying individual with anger management issues than I would be in my country. Actually, Loren, in your country I find myself being careful about who I will confront when I witness them mistreating someone than I would in my country. Actually, Loren, in your country as a parent of 3 children attending school and then physically present on College Campuses, I have feared more for their safety than I would in my country.