What are your opinions about undocumented immigrants?

[Patooka]

Yeah, US immigration is a shit show. I know, I have been through it.

And in the current climate, you'd have been told to fuck off back where you came from. Strange that you advocate such a policy.

 

[Jarhyn]

I can only imagine that attacking them as criminals and making them fear for their lives from transfer to a slave/death camp to the point of feeling the need to be armed and organized can only have the effect of growing actual threats from what would have been nothing.

 

[Axulus]

More Evidence that Immigrants - Including Illegal Ones - Have Much Lower Crime Rates than Natives

Our consistent finding is that legal immigrants have the lowest incarceration rates, followed by illegal immigrants, and that native-born Americans have the highest. Illegal immigrants are half as likely to be incarcerated as native-born Americans, and legal immigrants are 74 percent less likely to be incarcerated….

these figures don't fully control for the fact that illegal migrants are younger and have a higher percentage of males than native-born citizens (young people and men have much higher crime rates than older people and women). Moreover, some crime committed by illegal migrants is a consequence of their illegal status: difficulty finding legal employment likely incentivizes some to participate in illegal markets, where there is more violence than in the legal sector.

In sum, immigration - including the illegal kind - is actually reducing our crime rate, not raising it. There is no immigrant-driven crime wave. Much the contrary.

A common response to such data is to say that any immigrant-driven crime is intolerable, especially if committed illegal migrants. Even one additional murder or rape is one too many!

But this logic implies that any significant population increase is bad. After all, any large group of people inevitably includes at least a few violent criminals. That suggests increases in the birth rate (a high priority for many right-wing pro-natalists) are bad. After all, some of these children will grow up to be criminals! It also indicates the US was wrong to accept the ancestors of most native-born Americans. Some of them were criminals, too!

Claims that crimes committed by illegal migrants are in a different moral universe from those committed by other people are flawed for the same reasons that "I'm for legal immigration" arguments are generally defective. See my discussion of that fallacy here. A murder or rape committed by an illegal migrant is no worse (and no better) than one committed by anyone else.

Even if our goal is to reduce the absolute amount of crime rather than crime rate, immigration restrictions are the wrong approach to achieving that objective. Resources devoted to deporting people with a low crime rate can be more profitably devoted to targeting actual criminals, thereby by deterring and otherwise preventing many more crimes.

More Evidence that Immigrants - Including Illegal Ones - Have Much Lower Crime Rates than Natives

Claims that illegal immigration is causing a crime wave are ubiquitous on the political right, and likely helped Trump win the 2024 election. But social

reason.com

 

[Axulus]

I've seen the Trump regime and people online make the gross and outrageous claim that Biden let in 20 million illegal aliens during is term. This is obvious bullshit so I decided to try my best to determine the true amount. This was surprisingly difficult given the prominence this issue plays in our politics. Some of it was estimated and outdated and scattered around in various reports from different government departments. For those interested, here is what I found, and a link to the spreadsheet for more details on the source and methodology.

TL DR: number of undocumented living in US increased by net of 4 million during Biden. This number also includes people who are legally allowed to be here temporarily due to either pending asylum claim, TPS, or humanitarian parole. We know who those people are, they are in the system and US has conducted some background checks.

8.6 million net undocumented came to US (after subtracting those expelled and deported), but around 4.6 million left voluntarily. Of those 8.6 million, about 2.5 million slipped through either undetected or overstayed their visa.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

America simply doesn't want to accept immigration. The nation has hated immigration for a couple centuries, which is also about as long as the nation has been dependent on immigrant labor. Of course, 60 to 200 years ago, immigrating wasn't as hard as it is now. The nation was expanding, not as populated.

Today, the US uses an incredible amount of immigrant labor (legal and illegal) to provide a broad swath of services (agricultural to construction to maintenance) in our country. It'd be nicer if we accepted this as a fact rather than deny it. The right-wing war on immigration has gone as well as the war on drugs, for the same reason, demand. We need to accept this and develop a system that is consistent with our nation's economic needs and with a bit of humanity.

We also need to stop demonizing illegal immigrants en masse as mongrels. People that need to demonize their enemies can't have particularly sound arguments against them.

 

[Axulus]

My immigration reform plan:

Hire about 4,000 immigration judges, they do 4 cases per day, 1 hours 30 minutes per case, 250 days a year, for 4,000,000 total per year. Any particularly complex cases could be done during the last case of the day which could have a longer time block available, if needed. You pay them $100,000 each annually, for a total cost of $400,000,000/year. You charge each individual seeking asylum or any other legal avenue to stay in the USA a $500 application fee. They show up at a processing center at the border, of which there would be several. For 4,000,000 in a year, this is $2 billion in revenue. So there would be $1.6 billion left over after paying the judges. This could be used to pay for people to assist them with the application and assist during the court hearing, government officials to review the claims and create a report of findings for the judge to consider (whether there is sufficient evidence to support any factual claims made in the asylum application, run backround checks and criminal records checks, review documentation like birth certificate and ID to make sure it is legit). You could have their claim processed in a week since there wouldn't be a backlog. The US could work with Mexico to house these individuals in Mexico during their one week wait time for their claim to be processed. Perhaps private hostels could house them at the border for a small fee, or have some camp sites available with facilities for a small camping fee.

For those that can't afford the fee, perhaps private organizations could help assist, or perhaps there could be an exceptional needs wavior one could apply for, allowed for a subset of cases, to be paid back if their application is approved and they gain employment in the US.

They could have the judges working at the border and have several processing centers along the border. They would show up for their hearing and allowed in if their application is approved. If denied they would be sent back to Mexico and they can then either pay $500 again in year (or some time period) to try again, or go back to their home country. The application fee and the number of judges could be scaled up and down based on demand and cost.

For border security, you have a combination of drones and sensor towers along the border that can detect any movement and heat signature across the border. You have patrol stations with a few individual border patrol agents every 5 miles or so. 2,000 miles of southern border means 400 patrol stations. If average staffing levels were 15 people per station 24 hours/day, 3 shifts, then this would be 18,000 border patrol agents. These stations would be staffed by drone pilots and mobile agents. Any person detected coming across the border is then tracked by drone until agents can intercept them in their vehicle and then make the arrest and then either put them in jail for a period of time as a consequence of the illegal action and then send them out of the country, and also they would be permanently banned from legal entry into the US.

No more bullshit traffic stops and extra-constitutional powers for border patrol agents within 100 miles of the border like they presently have. This setup could be such that they can detect and intercept virtually anyone crossing. If someone still manages to make it through without being tracked by the drone, then that is border patrol's fault and we as a country would need to beef it up a little more if too many are still slipping through (hard to see this happening much though).

Anyone whose application was accepted and allowed to stay in the country could be issued a work permit and a tax ID number. They would need to check in every three months and provide their current home address and employer. Anyone who commits more than a petty crime (like a minor traffic violation) could be deported after a hearing. After a couple of years and a clean record they could be elgible for a green card and eventually become a naturalized citizen as currently is the process.

I would also widen the available paths to enter the US legally (allow more applications to be accepted), but that can be settled with our political process.

For existing undocumented people in the US, would grant them a one time amnesty. They need to show up at a processing center, declare who they are, pay a small processing fee, would need a clean record and then give them a process to get a work permit, tax ID number, and then allow eventual green card and eventual citizenship. Anyone who does not take the amnesty would be deportable with an expedited process (they missed their chance).

 

[TomC]

My immigration reform plan...

I'd add a couple of things.
One is intake centers scattered through Central America. There's no reason that basic qualifying and prioritizing can't be done in Nicaragua or Panama, then people don't have to make long perilous trips.

Two, is start prosecuting American employers who give American jobs to undocumented workers. Instead of blaming immigrants for "stealing jobs from American workers" start blaming Americans who give the jobs away.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My immigration reform plan...

I'd add a couple of things.
One is intake centers scattered through Central America. There's no reason that basic qualifying and prioritizing can't be done in Nicaragua or Panama, then people don't have to make long perilous trips.

Two, is start prosecuting American employers who give American jobs to undocumented workers. Instead of blaming immigrants for "stealing jobs from American workers" start blaming Americans who give the jobs away.
Tom

Yeah... the thing with prosecuting people that hire people the US is using to drive the economy seems tone deaf on the issue of there clearly in a demand for the labor.

If we want to reduce that, we need to help drive economic growth in Central America... make up for a century of neglect and abuse. Help provide the mechanisms for work at home.

 

[TomC]

Yeah... the thing with prosecuting people that hire people the US is using to drive the economy seems tone deaf on the issue of there clearly in a demand for the labor.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence. Could you edit it for clarity?

If we want to reduce that, we need to help drive economic growth in Central America... make up for a century of neglect and abuse. Help provide the mechanisms for work at home.

Call me a conservative Christian if you must,

But I'd be totally fine with that, while simultaneously advocating for a sensible and humane immigration system.
Tom

 

[TSwizzle]

America simply doesn't want to accept immigration.

"America"? It is not clear what "America" is supposed to be here. The US government or people, both?

My own thoughts on this are yes and no or hard to determine depending on my mood. The USA gives out many thousands of temporary work visas every year. Valid for three years at a time (IIRC) and can be renewed once (maybe twice, I forget). Approximately one million green cards are granted every year. These have to be renewed every ten years. I don't know how many green card holders go on to get naturalized citizenship. It would be interesting to find out. So this set up does make me think that the USA is against immigration but is in favor of temporary workers or very, very long term temporary workers. Green card holders do not have anywhere near the same rights as a naturalized citizen, they cannot vote in presidential elections for example. And in my opinion, applying for citizenship and becoming a US citizen can be quite difficult and can be very expensive. The application fee alone is a nonrefundable $700+. To me this seems to discourage people from applying. I know a few people who have been permanent residents (green card holders) for decades and won't apply for citizenship for various reasons but expense and hassle is part of it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah... the thing with prosecuting people that hire people the US is using to drive the economy seems tone deaf on the issue of there clearly in a demand for the labor.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence. Could you edit it for clarity?

People who want to punish hiring illegals are ignoring that there is a large demand for hiring illegals. The whole "we'll just prosecute them" is like Nancy Reagan's "Just say no".

America needs to stop denying its use of (and potentially addiction to) illegal immigration for labor.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

America simply doesn't want to accept immigration.

"America"? It is not clear what "America" is supposed to be here.

Lately, it's been a synonym for Mexico.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

America simply doesn't want to accept immigration.

"America"? It is not clear what "America" is supposed to be here. The US government or people, both?

The entire nation. This country hasn't liked immigrants for a long time. It can be noted that the type of immigrants that aren't liked have changed over the years. Europeans aren't as big an issue as they used to be, like back when you couldn't trust Italians or Germans. Or the dirty Asians out west! We cool with them now. These days America doesn't like Muslims, Africans, Central / South Americans. And people get real angry about the later!

My own thoughts on this are yes and no or hard to determine depending on my mood. The USA gives out many thousands of temporary work visas every year. Valid for three years at a time (IIRC) and can be renewed once (maybe twice, I forget). Approximately one million green cards are granted every year. These have to be renewed every ten years. I don't know how many green card holders go on to get naturalized citizenship. It would be interesting to find out. So this set up does make me think that the USA is against immigration but is in favor of temporary workers or very, very long term temporary workers.

Sure, America allows immigration. Generally always has, but unless they are Anglo-Saxon-ish or from a reputable nation in the Eastern Hemisphere... America doesn't like them. They are eating the pets, they are mongrels, they carry disease!

America's vibes on immigration (legal and illegal) is quite pathetic.

 

[Toni]

America simply doesn't want to accept immigration. The nation has hated immigration for a couple centuries, which is also about as long as the nation has been dependent on immigrant labor. Of course, 60 to 200 years ago, immigrating wasn't as hard as it is now. The nation was expanding, not as populated.

Today, the US uses an incredible amount of immigrant labor (legal and illegal) to provide a broad swath of services (agricultural to construction to maintenance) in our country. It'd be nicer if we accepted this as a fact rather than deny it. The right-wing war on immigration has gone as well as the war on drugs, for the same reason, demand. We need to accept this and develop a system that is consistent with our nation's economic needs and with a bit of humanity.

We also need to stop demonizing illegal immigrants en masse as mongrels. People that need to demonize their enemies can't have particularly sound arguments against them.

But let's be fair here: The US is dependent upon immigrant labor for the same reasons it was dependent upon slave labor: Cheap labor to perform difficult tasks that those of European descent did not wish to engage in or pay sufficiently well to entice people who had other choices to perform.

Make no mistake: The racists in charge wish to stifle immigrant labor and simply use underclass people to perform the same poorly paid, unpleasant and sometimes dangerous work. This helps explain the attacks on education.

This is all so that people who are already wealthy and powerful will become even more wealthy and more powerful.

 

[Toni]

Yeah... the thing with prosecuting people that hire people the US is using to drive the economy seems tone deaf on the issue of there clearly in a demand for the labor.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence. Could you edit it for clarity?

People who want to punish hiring illegals are ignoring that there is a large demand for hiring illegals. The whole "we'll just prosecute them" is like Nancy Reagan's "Just say no".

America needs to stop denying its use of (and potentially addiction to) illegal immigration for labor.

It is extremely large scale.

It does need to be stopped.

It cannot be stopped by somehow stopping immigration, legal or otherwise.

You MUST go after the employers who hire undocumented immigrants. One good way is to insist and to enforce fair wages and benefits for ALL.

Yes, there will still be some who are working 'off the books' or in some other subterfuge, just as there are currently children serving as prostitutes and drug runners. In some countries, they sort through trash or weave rugs as well. It will be more difficult to stop this simply because some people are very desperate to feed their families or be fed and some people are simply without anything resembling a conscience.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Gallup - American views on immigration.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah... the thing with prosecuting people that hire people the US is using to drive the economy seems tone deaf on the issue of there clearly in a demand for the labor.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence. Could you edit it for clarity?

People who want to punish hiring illegals are ignoring that there is a large demand for hiring illegals. The whole "we'll just prosecute them" is like Nancy Reagan's "Just say no".

America needs to stop denying its use of (and potentially addiction to) illegal immigration for labor.

It is extremely large scale.

It does need to be stopped.

It cannot be stopped by somehow stopping immigration, legal or otherwise.

You MUST go after the employers who hire undocumented immigrants. One good way is to insist and to enforce fair wages and benefits for ALL.

It isn't the employers.... it is all of us! We need to come to grips with this.

We have a shadow caste of workers in this country. The right-wing populists make illegals out as non-English speaking criminals. But they are generally building housing, cleaning up after our elderly, picking our crops. But until the right-wing populists stop making this a illegal criminals bullshit attack ad, we can't even address the labor issues.

The Reaganite conservatives won, and we are at each other's throats in competition to undercut every one else. Huzzah!

 

[TSwizzle]

We have a shadow caste of workers in this country.

I will agree with this. America does not seem keen for new citizens but will grant a million people every year permanent residency.

The right-wing populists make illegals out as non-English speaking criminals.

Undoubtably some of them are.

But they are generally building housing, cleaning up after our elderly, picking our crops. But until the right-wing populists stop making this a illegal criminals bullshit attack ad, we can't even address the labor issues.

It's down to the government to sort it out and neither side seems willing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But they are generally building housing, cleaning up after our elderly, picking our crops. But until the right-wing populists stop making this a illegal criminals bullshit attack ad, we can't even address the labor issues.

It's down to the government to sort it out and neither side seems willing.

That's bullshit. W had a plan. The GOP crashed it. It could have possibly been done in 2009/10, but the Democrats decided to slit their throats expanding health care coverage instead of widespread immigration reform which would have resulted in a likewise bloodbath.

 

[Elixir]

Undoubtably some of them are.

Undoubtedly, any individual one of them is LESS likely to be a criminal than is any individual American Citizen.
Check your facts, dude.

It's down to the government to sort it out and neither side seems willing.

Ah, the always handy "both sides" excuse for an argument.
If you're talking about immigration, Dems offered to fix it, Trump ordered his cocksuckers to preserve the problem for his own benefit, and now the entire MAGAt junta is addicted to it as their boogeyman in chief, keeping suckers like Swiz firmly in their camp.