What Conservatives?

[Rayschism]

So conservatives whine about how Obamacare is all wrong for the nation.

Then dismantle it and create their own.

Then proceed to spend al ot more money on health care than liberals ever could.

Each year is liberals outspend conservatives then conservatives out spend liberals.

When I was a child all the way back in the eighties, I was taught that conservatives tried to save money for an emergency and spent it only when necessary while liberals love to spend other people's money than their own/

I don't see conservatives doing that any more. At all.

So I'm not entirely sure that there is such a thing as conservatives any more.

So could it be that the liberals have won and have destroyed them?

Conservatives are just not conserving anything anymore.

At least as far as i know.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So conservatives whine about how Obamacare is all wrong for the nation.

Then dismantle it and create their own.

Then proceed to spend al ot more money on health care than liberals ever could.

Each year is liberals outspend conservatives then conservatives out spend liberals.

When I was a child all the way back in the eighties, I was taught that conservatives tried to save money for an emergency and spent it only when necessary while liberals love to spend other people's money than their own/

I don't see conservatives doing that any more. At all.

So I'm not entirely sure that there is such a thing as conservatives any more.

So could it be that the liberals have won and have destroyed them?

Conservatives are just not conserving anything anymore.

At least as far as i know.

Republicans increase military spending, maintain non-military spending level, cut taxes. This leads to higher deficits: every...single....time. This lead to higher deficits under Reagan, Bush sr, Bush jr., and will happen under Trump.

 

[Tigers!]

So conservatives whine about how Obamacare is all wrong for the nation.

Then dismantle it and create their own.

Then proceed to spend al ot more money on health care than liberals ever could.

Each year is liberals outspend conservatives then conservatives out spend liberals.

When I was a child all the way back in the eighties, I was taught that conservatives tried to save money for an emergency and spent it only when necessary while liberals love to spend other people's money than their own/

I don't see conservatives doing that any more. At all.

So I'm not entirely sure that there is such a thing as conservatives any more.

So could it be that the liberals have won and have destroyed them?

Conservatives are just not conserving anything anymore.

At least as far as i know.

Republicans increase military spending, maintain non-military spending level, cut taxes. This leads to higher deficits: every...single....time. This lead to higher deficits under Reagan, Bush sr, Bush jr., and will happen under Trump.

Didn''t Obama increase the deficit (IIRC)? He didn't do much for military spending so what was his excuse?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Republicans increase military spending, maintain non-military spending level, cut taxes. This leads to higher deficits: every...single....time. This lead to higher deficits under Reagan, Bush sr, Bush jr., and will happen under Trump.

Didn''t Obama increase the deficit (IIRC)? He didn't do much for military spending so what was his excuse?

Where did I say that Obama reduced the debt? Obama also decreased taxes and increased spending. He did so to get us out of a severe recession. The difference is that he didn't run on balancing the deficit. There are many who only vote republican because they wrongly believe that republicans are more fiscally conservative. And this is false. It's magic. Trump will cut more taxes than Obama, and he will increase spending more. And the deficit will go up at a higher rate than under Obama.

 

[PyramidHead]

Republicans increase military spending, maintain non-military spending level, cut taxes. This leads to higher deficits: every...single....time. This lead to higher deficits under Reagan, Bush sr, Bush jr., and will happen under Trump.

Didn''t Obama increase the deficit (IIRC)? He didn't do much for military spending so what was his excuse?

Deficits decreased every year under Obama, with a couple of exceptions. He had an economic downturn and some heavy tax cuts from his predecessor to contend with.

 

[Bronzeage]

So conservatives whine about how Obamacare is all wrong for the nation.
Then dismantle it and create their own.
Then proceed to spend al ot more money on health care than liberals ever could.
Each year is liberals outspend conservatives then conservatives out spend liberals.
When I was a child all the way back in the eighties, I was taught that conservatives tried to save money for an emergency and spent it only when necessary while liberals love to spend other people's money than their own/
I don't see conservatives doing that any more. At all.
So I'm not entirely sure that there is such a thing as conservatives any more.
So could it be that the liberals have won and have destroyed them?
Conservatives are just not conserving anything anymore.
At least as far as i know.

The label "conservative" has lost most of its meaning, as conservative political leaders realized that true conservative philosophy had very little appeal among the poor working class. In the days when voters were male and usually prosperous, conservatism could hold its own in a debate. That was lost as the franchise to vote was extended to most men, and later to most women.

I doubt one will ever find an example of a modern conservative government "saving" money for a rainy day. Our new breed of conservatives do not believe government has any right to money, and taxation is a form of theft. This is the bedrock of a type of cognitive dissonance that has stained the modern conservative movement. They want to spend government funds on the things that benefit them directly and in a tangible way, and consider anything else to be a total waste.

This dissonance becomes most stark when we see conservatives state that people who do not have school age children have no obligation to support for public schools. Even though their rhetoric is undone by the simplest examination, they cannot see any benefit to government spending, unless there is an immediate and tangible benefit to themselves.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Republicans increase military spending, maintain non-military spending level, cut taxes. This leads to higher deficits: every...single....time. This lead to higher deficits under Reagan, Bush sr, Bush jr., and will happen under Trump.

Didn''t Obama increase the deficit (IIRC)? He didn't do much for military spending so what was his excuse?

Obama was handed a wrecked economy with high unemployment and massive spending needed to prevent the US from economic ruin and another depression.
About 24% of our deficits come from the Bush era tax cuts that go mostly to the 1% that the GOP did not allow Obama to roll back. And wanted to make permanent. Deficits are now lower than the Bush years. Bush - GOP doubled the national debt, so it's not like they are experts at this economy thing.

Blaming the bad deficits of the early Obama era on Obama is bullshit.

Bush inherited a balanced budget, Obama inherited the worst economic crash since the depression.

This is the GOP controlled Congress whose leaders met and vowed not to cooperate with Obama even before he was sworn in. They get a large part of the blame for any economic problems we are having now, with massive deficits.

 

[marc]

Didn''t Obama increase the deficit (IIRC)? He didn't do much for military spending so what was his excuse?

Obama was handed a wrecked economy with high unemployment and massive spending needed to prevent the US from economic ruin and another depression.
About 24% of our deficits come from the Bush era tax cuts that go mostly to the 1% that the GOP did not allow Obama to roll back. And wanted to make permanent. Deficits are now lower than the Bush years. Bush - GOP doubled the national debt, so it's not like they are experts at this economy thing.

Blaming the bad deficits of the early Obama era on Obama is bullshit.

Bush inherited a balanced budget, Obama inherited the worst economic crash since the depression.

This is the GOP controlled Congress whose leaders met and vowed not to cooperate with Obama even before he was sworn in. They get a large part of the blame for any economic problems we are having now, with massive deficits.

Not to mention two wars that were not being included in the budget under Bush.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So conservatives whine about how Obamacare is all wrong for the nation.

Then dismantle it and create their own.

Then proceed to spend al ot more money on health care than liberals ever could.

Each year is liberals outspend conservatives then conservatives out spend liberals.

Discretionary spending under Obama saw very little in increases.

When I was a child all the way back in the eighties, I was taught that conservatives tried to save money for an emergency and spent it only when necessary while liberals love to spend other people's money than their own/

And it was a lie then as much as it is one now.

I don't see conservatives doing that any more. At all.

Never did. Annual deficits were the largest per GDP under Reagan and HW Bush.

So could it be that the liberals have won and have destroyed them?

That'd be nice if it were so.

- - - Updated - - -

Republicans increase military spending, maintain non-military spending level, cut taxes. This leads to higher deficits: every...single....time. This lead to higher deficits under Reagan, Bush sr, Bush jr., and will happen under Trump.

Didn''t Obama increase the deficit (IIRC)? He didn't do much for military spending so what was his excuse?

You mean other than a massive drop in tax revenue due to the Great Recession?

 

[funinspace]

Obama was handed a wrecked economy with high unemployment and massive spending needed to prevent the US from economic ruin and another depression.
About 24% of our deficits come from the Bush era tax cuts that go mostly to the 1% that the GOP did not allow Obama to roll back. And wanted to make permanent. Deficits are now lower than the Bush years. Bush - GOP doubled the national debt, so it's not like they are experts at this economy thing.

Blaming the bad deficits of the early Obama era on Obama is bullshit.

Bush inherited a balanced budget, Obama inherited the worst economic crash since the depression.

This is the GOP controlled Congress whose leaders met and vowed not to cooperate with Obama even before he was sworn in. They get a large part of the blame for any economic problems we are having now, with massive deficits.

Not to mention two wars that were not being included in the budget under Bush.

And Obama, and now Don the Con.... Though the Congressional Critters should really get top billing.

 

[untermensche]

I don't see conservatives doing that any more. At all.

Republicans never did it.

They are unimaginable hypocrites.

The plan they endorsed for health care was basically Obama's plan, until he endorsed it. Then suddenly the plan became the worst plan ever devised.

The Republican's since the disaster with Nixon are nothing but liars and hypocrites. Never have they lived up to any of their rhetoric.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Deficits by themselves are neither good or bad.

Presented with a trade deficit, they're essential.

In inflationary times, the deficit needs to be lower.

The national debt is just a residual number indicating money spent into existence and not taxed back to the govt.

Conservatives use deficits to justify lower social spending, liberals use them to argue against tax cuts. Both arguments are baloney. A monetarily sovereign nation cannot be forced into insolvency. We can always create whatever money is required to service the ND.

 

[Valjean]

As has been pointed out, Republicans talk about fiscal responsibility, but they spend like drunken sailors. It's the Democrats that always have to clean up the republicans' fiscal messes -- and wars.

As for health care, America's a Byzantine Rube Goldberg, with dozens of competing interests claiming pieces of the pie. We have plenty of examples of cheaper, better, more efficient systems, but American "healthcare" is an industry, bent on maximizing profits. It's dominated by Insurance companies, which rake in huge profits but render no actual healthcare.
Both parties are tying themselves in knots trying to preserve the parasitic industry funding their elections.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For me, deficits is like running a home. What are you spending deficit money on? Is it needless stuff that won't exist in a while, or a durable entity (home, car, furnace), something that'll be used for a long time?

I was recently at Fillmore State Park and walked over a bridge that was built during the depression in the 30s as a way to keep people employed. And people across the nation today still use the bridges, trails, infrastructure that was built using deficit money during the Great Depression.

What did we get in the 00's with W's tax cut and the occupations that we can use in the 80 years?

Deficits by themselves are neither good or bad.

Presented with a trade deficit, they're essential.

In inflationary times, the deficit needs to be lower.

The national debt is just a residual number indicating money spent into existence and not taxed back to the govt.

Conservatives use deficits to justify lower social spending, liberals use them to argue against tax cuts. Both arguments are baloney. A monetarily sovereign nation cannot be forced into insolvency. We can always create whatever money is required to service the ND.

I disagree. Take a look at this graph I drew on a napkin...

 

[Horatio Parker]

For me, deficits is like running a home. What are you spending deficit money on? Is it needless stuff that won't exist in a while, or a durable entity (home, car, furnace), something that'll be used for a long time?

Households can't create money; the national govt can. Without that insight, the comparison is useless.

Suppose you, as head of the household, decided that all occupants had to do chores to earn points to live in the house. You work out a system of so many points for various chores, and demand so many points for rent. Some industrious members of your house do more chores and earn more points than they need for rent. You're now runnning a deficit, since you're paying more points than you're collecting. But if doesn't matter because you can always award points as needed. The points don't "come from" anywhere and you never have to run out.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For me, deficits is like running a home. What are you spending deficit money on? Is it needless stuff that won't exist in a while, or a durable entity (home, car, furnace), something that'll be used for a long time?

Households can't create money; the national govt can. Without that insight, the comparison is useless.

Households can generate money via debt. Sure, they can't literally print it like the Federal Government can, but the analogy isn't lost on that technicality.

Suppose you, as head of the household, decided that all occupants had to do chores to earn points to live in the house. You work out a system of so many points for various chores, and demand so many points for rent. Some industrious members of your house do more chores and earn more points than they need for rent. You're now runnning a deficit, since you're paying more points than you're collecting. But if doesn't matter because you can always award points as needed. The points don't "come from" anywhere and you never have to run out.

This seems to entirely miss my point of the value in deficit spending being directly related to what the deficit money is being spent on.

 

[untermensche]

This seems to entirely miss my point of the value in deficit spending being directly related to what the deficit money is being spent on.

That is undeniable.

Huge amounts of money being spent to pay off aggressive wars is debt with absolutely nothing to show for it.

Pure debt with no value.

As opposed to building roads and bridges and schools and hospitals.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Households can't create money; the national govt can. Without that insight, the comparison is useless.

Households can generate money via debt. Sure, they can't literally print it like the Federal Government can, but the analogy isn't lost on that technicality.

The analogy is totally lost on that technicality. It makes all the difference.

Suppose you, as head of the household, decided that all occupants had to do chores to earn points to live in the house. You work out a system of so many points for various chores, and demand so many points for rent. Some industrious members of your house do more chores and earn more points than they need for rent. You're now runnning a deficit, since you're paying more points than you're collecting. But if doesn't matter because you can always award points as needed. The points don't "come from" anywhere and you never have to run out.

This seems to entirely miss my point of the value in deficit spending being directly related to what the deficit money is being spent on.

It's too obvious a point. Who is going to argue for nonproductive spending?

 

[SimpleDon]

What Conservatives?

So conservatives whine about how Obamacare is all wrong for the nation.

Then dismantle it and create their own.

Then proceed to spend a lot more money on health care than liberals ever could.

Each year is liberals outspend conservatives then conservatives out spend liberals.

When I was a child all the way back in the eighties, I was taught that conservatives tried to save money for an emergency and spent it only when necessary while liberals love to spend other people's money than their own/

I don't see conservatives doing that any more. At all.

So I'm not entirely sure that there is such a thing as conservatives any more.

So could it be that the liberals have won and have destroyed them?

Conservatives are just not conserving anything anymore.

At least as far as i know.

The TrumpCare bill passed by the House clarifies much that we had only suspected about the Republicans.

They are not a monolith of belief. They contain a range of belief from the proto-fascism and authoritarianism of Trump to the reactionaries of the Freedom Caucus who want to return us to the 1950's on social issues when white males dominated everything to so-called moderates who are actually traditional conservatives who fear change.

In March they tried and failed to pass TrumpCare because the so-called moderates thought that kicking 24 million off of health insurance is a bit too harsh and the reactionaries of the Freedom Caucus thought that it isn't harsh enough.

The way that they got around this problem was by selling the two features of the proposed bill that apparently all Republicans agree on, tax cuts for the very rich and corporate welfare, in this case for the health insurance companies. They also added provisions to allow presumably red states to make TrumpCare harsher in those states to win over the Freedom Caucus and to include an extra 8 billion dollars to high risk pools to soften the blow of 880 billion dollars of cuts to Medicaid to win over the two so-called moderates that they needed to pass the bill.

The real reason that they had to pass this horror show of a bill is that due to the arcane rules of the Senate this small one trillion dollar tax cut for the rich had to precede the much larger 6 to 7 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich outlined in the one page proposal from the proto-fascist in order to pass both under reconciliation to avoid the Democrats' expected filibuster.

I don't profess to understand these rules beyond what I stated above. As a point of fact, I would be embarrassed to admit that I had wasted the time required to understand these rules.

 

[Opoponax]

American conservatism has become a rudderless, amorphous, stinking pile of shit whose only purpose is to fertilize the money fields of the already wealthy. I don't have anything against getting wealthy. I really don't. It's just that when I think of American conservatism, I don't think of fiscal responsibility, or trying to account for unforeseen consequences before implementing legislative and policy changes. I only see a loud, yammering group of misinformationists (not a real word apparently) whose only goal is to increase the wealth of those who already have the most.

What's "conservative" about Fox News? It's a gossip channel dedicated to either outright lying about the Democratic party and its representatives, while occasionally brushing up against truthful things, but with so much purposeful obfuscation and twist that it's at best a fictionalized account of reality based very loosely on the facts.

The conservative voter is almost entirely a study in indignant ignorance. The few who aren't ignorant fools, strangely enough, are the ones who have the good sense to vote in their own best interests when voting for the GOP. That is, the wealthy folks. At least there's some measure of respectability to that. Or maybe better put, at least its understandable on a concrete level. They're going to be saving a lot money due to tax cuts. But the rest? I would ask what their excuse is, but there is no excuse.

The only group that can equal them are the lazy asses who didn't like Trump, but didn't bother to vote, and the third party wannabe bastions of fucking nobility who voted for Jill Stein.

American conshitacism + laziness + apathy + I Don't Regret Voting for Nader = Trump.