What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?

[ruby sparks]

To answer your question, I have never seen it in that light personally, but I suppose on some level it could be. As for letting women "get away with it", they don't in my presence.

Gotcha.

Also, fwiw, I have been in men's locker rooms on a weekly basis for most of my life, and I am glad to say that apart from jokes intended to be humourous, I can't think of an example of hearing someone being outright offensive about women. Never heard the word 'slut' for example. Maybe it's either the particular locker rooms I have frequented or I am not picking up on it.

 

[ruby sparks]

And other experts would.

Possibly. And?

Imo, if you or anyone else wants to label people as harassers, without distinctions, on the basis of for example telling dirty jokes, in a given year, which may or may not denigrate women (depending on the joke) and which may or may not cause offence, then go ahead. To me it's erring towards a potential witch hunt. Or wizard hunt or whatever the best term is. I don't even think it'd be especially useful.

I am saying that the relevant issue is not what the actor intended or thought, but what the target or recipient felt.

Again, even if you are correct, so what? To repeat, the word harmless did not appear to be used to mean what you thought.

 

[starwater]

To answer your question, I have never seen it in that light personally, but I suppose on some level it could be. As for letting women "get away with it", they don't in my presence.

Gotcha.

Also, fwiw, I have been in men's locker rooms on a weekly basis for most of my life, and I am glad to say that apart from jokes intended to be humourous, I can't think of an example of hearing someone being outright offensive about women. Never heard the word 'slut' for example. Maybe it's either the particular locker rooms I have frequented or I am not picking up on it.

This is good to hear!

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Odd, since I quoted it directly:



That’s a total of 62% of workers, presumably men, confessing to having engaged in “objectionable” behaviour.

I don't think you can add the two figures like that? Even if they were all from the same workplace (which I don't think they were) I don't think you can add them. It depends what proportion of blue and white collar workers were asked, but if for example it was an equal number of each then the total would be 31% (midway between 38 and 24) admitting to one of the actions listed.

My mistake. I thought it was measuring the total work environment (i.e., 38% that confessed were blue collar workers; 24% were white collar workers; not 38% of all blue collar workers/24% of all white collar workers).

 

[ruby sparks]

My mistake. I thought it was measuring the total work environment (i.e., 38% that confessed were blue collar workers; 24% were white collar workers; not 38% of all blue collar workers/24% of all white collar workers).

No prob. Bonus points for admitting a mistake.

 

[laughing dog]

And other experts would.

Possibly. And?

Imo, if you or anyone else wants to label people as harassers on the basis of for example telling dirty jokes, which may or may not denigrate women (depending on the joke) and which may or may not cause offence, then go ahead. To me it's erring towards a potential witch hunt. Or wizard hunt or whatever the best term is.

The point of this is that these behaviors can cause a harmful environment. And telling dirty jokes can be used to harass people.

Again, even if you are correct, so what? To repeat, the word harmless did not appear to be used to mean what you thought.

] I literally do not understand what you mean, I responded to your “I think you are concluding that harmless only meant 'not deemed harmful by the person acting or speaking” which does not indicate any misunderstanding about the term “harm”.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I don't allow women to get away with this kind of behavior in my presence - so my view is biased - I am very out spoken. If women hide in a corner in a meeting then complain their voice is not heard - I tell them to speak up! Then they will complain that men interupt them - so, tell them not too. I hate women who play the victim and don't step up and sit at the table. To answer your question, I have never seen it in that light personally, but I suppose on some level it could be. As for letting women "get away with it", they don't in my presence.

It sounds to me like you are treating men and women as equals, seeing them both as having agency and responsibility for themselves, and not falling into gender role traps. This is very refreshing and you make me smile.

 

[ruby sparks]

To answer your question, I have never seen it in that light personally, but I suppose on some level it could be. As for letting women "get away with it", they don't in my presence.

Gotcha.

Also, fwiw, I have been in men's locker rooms on a weekly basis for most of my life, and I am glad to say that apart from jokes intended to be humourous, I can't think of an example of hearing someone being outright offensive about women. Never heard the word 'slut' for example. Maybe it's either the particular locker rooms I have frequented or I am not picking up on it.

This is good to hear!

In the past, it was mostly university or similar men's locker rooms I was in, but in recent years, I've been playing indoor football every week with a bunch of.....well, I won't make socio-economic judgements, but let's just say they're pretty darned coarse......

My anecdotal experience is that 'locker room talk' can be a bit of an inaccurate caricature of what goes on and that in fact, many men would think twice before chancing explicitly offensive remarks, sexist, racist or whatever.

I have no experience of American locker rooms, I have to say.

It is also possible that I am not picking up on certain things.

 

[ruby sparks]

The point of this is that these behaviors can cause a harmful environment. And telling dirty jokes can be used to harass people.

Ok, I agree, but maybe the occasional telling of dirty jokes of itself is not necessarily that (unless we widen the definition of harassment to what might be considered an unreasonable or unhelpful degree, imo).

I responded to your “I think you are concluding that harmless only meant 'not deemed harmful by the person acting or speaking” which does not indicate any misunderstanding about the term “harm”.

Then I don't know why you initially said the distinction was not useful.

 

[laughing dog]

The point of this is that these behaviors can cause a harmful environment. And telling dirty jokes can be used to harass people.

Ok, but maybe the telling of dirty jokes of itself is not necessarily that (unless we widen the definition of harassment to what might be considered an unreasonable or unhelpful degree).

Well, groping, in and of itself is not necessarily, sexual harassment either. In my view, these actions are problems to the extent the recipients, not the actors, feel harassed or threatened. The article you cited, also cited that 50% of women at work had experienced some form of sexual harassment at least once. That indicates a problem, and it suggests the problem is not isolated to a small portion of men.

 

[ruby sparks]

In my view, these actions are problems to the extent the recipients, not the actors, feel harassed or threatened.

To a large extent, I agree. One exception might get us into the question of whether people have the right not to be offended. Do atheists have to make sure not to offend christians? If a woman is for example offended by a dirty joke.....

I keep using the dirty joke example partly because it seems to have accounted for between 6 and 19% of respondents.

The article you cited, also cited that 50% of women at work had experienced some form of sexual harassment at least once. That indicates a problem, and it suggests the problem is not isolated to a small portion of men.

Possibly, but a high level of experiencing something says very little about the number of 'offenders', as is the case generally in other situations. A lot of people may, in their lifetime, have experienced theft or burglary, but that does not mean that there is anything other than a small portion of burglars or thieves in society.

 

[starwater]

This is good to hear!

In the past, it was mostly university or similar men's locker rooms I was in, but in recent years, I've been playing indoor football every week with a bunch of.....well, I won't make socio-economic judgements, but let's just say they're pretty darned coarse......

My anecdotal experience is that 'locker room talk' can be a bit of an inaccurate caricature of what goes on and that in fact, many men would think twice before chancing explicitly offensive remarks, sexist, racist or whatever.

I have no experience of American locker rooms, I have to say.

It is also possible that I am not picking up on certain things.

Oh I think you are picking things up just fine. And cudos to Ireland (does this include Northern Ireland?) to legalizing abortion.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

In my view, these actions are problems to the extent the recipients, not the actors, feel harassed or threatened.

This should only be taken so far, lest we allow crybullies to steal our sanity. You have no right not to be offended (as the Peterson/Newman interview demonstrates so well). You have a right not to be harassed, and what constitutes harassment is an objective standard determined a reasonable person test. Absolutely anything you say or do could trigger somebody. Either they'll have to wear big glowing labels or we are going to run out of eggshells to walk on.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1LMu8V8ZlI[/youtube]

The article you cited, also cited that 50% of women at work had experienced some form of sexual harassment at least once. That indicates a problem

Yes, it does.

and it suggests the problem is not isolated to a small portion of men.

No, it does not. Even if the problem isn't isolated to a small portion of men as you say, this doesn't indicate that.

 

[ruby sparks]

...cudos to Ireland (does this include Northern Ireland?) to legalizing abortion.

Unfortunately not. NI (my country) is now arguably the most backward in western Europe on such issues (no gay marriage here either) and I find it embarrassing and infuriating. Most, in fact all people I know or associate with feel similarly. There is (very probably) a majority in favour of legalising both, but the unusual way politics work here, the fundies have a veto.

 

[laughing dog]

No, it does not. Even if the problem isn't isolated to a small portion of men as you say, this doesn't indicate that.

I think it takes a pretty rigid mind to reject the suggestion that when 80% of women in general or slightly over 50% of women in the workplace say they have experience sexual harassment or assault at least once that this problem is not isolated to a small portion of men. Add in men who don't stand up and express disapproval, and I think it takes a very rigid mind to maintain it is small portion of men.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I think it takes a pretty rigid mind to reject the suggestion that when 80% of women in general or slightly over 50% of women in the workplace say they have experience sexual harassment or assault at least once that this problem is not isolated to a small portion of men.

And I think it takes a rather biased mind to think that. I'll bet that the numbers are quite a bit higher than 80% of people who would say that they have had something stolen from them at least once in their lives, but I wouldn't rule out that these thieves may be a small portion of the populace. They may be, and they may not be. The high number of victims isn't enough to judge on.

 

[Toni]

No, it does not. Even if the problem isn't isolated to a small portion of men as you say, this doesn't indicate that.

I think it takes a pretty rigid mind to reject the suggestion that when 80% of women in general or slightly over 50% of women in the workplace say they have experience sexual harassment or assault at least once that this problem is not isolated to a small portion of men. Add in men who don't stand up and express disapproval, and I think it takes a very rigid mind to maintain it is small portion of men.

Yes. And this, unfortunately, is one of the reasons that some women defend people like Kavanaugh, Trump, Bill Clinton and others. It's just so widespread, some people simply accept it as 'normal' and acceptable. Boys will be boys. It's not their fault, it's their nature and it's the job of girls and women to never do anything to tempt a man and to always, always know and keep to their place.

That's really fucked up thinking but indoctrination does that.

I absolutely give proper due to the fact that in general, men are more visually stimulated than are women. I also give proper due that men are sometimes clueless that remarks they make are not as quiet as they seem to think. I no longer believe that men believe that girls and women are flattered by men's comments on their bodies or body parts and I think damn few of them are unaware that such comments make women feel threatened and intimidated and sometimes ashamed. I think that's the point of the comments: to keep women in their place, which seems, for some, to be in the kitchen, in the bedroom, and under mens' heels.

God how I wish I were exaggerating.

 

[ruby sparks]

No, it does not. Even if the problem isn't isolated to a small portion of men as you say, this doesn't indicate that.

I think it takes a pretty rigid mind to reject the suggestion that when 80% of women in general or slightly over 50% of women in the workplace say they have experience sexual harassment or assault at least once that this problem is not isolated to a small portion of men. Add in men who don't stand up and express disapproval, and I think it takes a very rigid mind to maintain it is small portion of men.

Obviously, the more we include 'lesser' forms of unpalatable behaviour, the more people we will start to include. I don't doubt that we might even say most men, including me, could be better than what they are in respect of these issues.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I no longer believe that men believe that girls and women are flattered by men's comments on their bodies or body parts

Are you saying that they never are? Or are you just talking about construction workers whistling and hooting etc? Certainly some women are very much appreciative of being told that they are beautiful, in the right context and by the right guy. Creepiness happens when men either misread or don't pay regard to the signs of where and when that context is. A lot of men are very bad at this sort of social navigation.

 

[starwater]

I no longer believe that men believe that girls and women are flattered by men's comments on their bodies or body parts

Are you saying that they never are? Or are you just talking about construction workers whistling and hooting etc? Certainly some women are very much appreciative of being told that they are beautiful, in the right context and by the right guy. Creepiness happens when men either misread or don't pay regard to the signs of where and when that context is. A lot of men are very bad at this sort of social navigation.

These comments are not appropriate at the workplace.

I have a friend who actually called me yesterday to tell me about and ask for advice about a guy at her new job. HR apparently came out with a sexual harassment policy that includes something about not complimenting women on their looks. This guy apparently complained and argued ad nausemum with my friend how this is not sexual harrassment and he should be allowed to compliment her. Argued and complained for over an hour. She ended up ignoring him, and then he overhear her tell someone else that she was going to the gym after work. He then told her that "see if you allow me to compliment you, then you wouldn't feel like you have to go to the gym". I told her to go to HR and her supervisor, start documenting this and worst case video it.

This guy clearly does not understand what harassment is, and still feels entitled to his way of thinking. I think this is still harassment, just a different twist.