What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?

[laughing dog]

I think it takes a pretty rigid mind to reject the suggestion that when 80% of women in general or slightly over 50% of women in the workplace say they have experience sexual harassment or assault at least once that this problem is not isolated to a small portion of men.

And I think it takes a rather biased mind to think that.

It takes a pretty biased mind to rule out the possibility of rigidity in thinking rather than bias.

I'll bet that the numbers are quite a bit higher than 80% of people who would say that they have had something stolen from them at least once in their lives, but I wouldn't rule out that these thieves may be a small portion of the populace. They may be, and they may not be. The high number of victims isn't enough to judge on.

I'll be the number of people who say they have taken something that does not belong to them sometime in their life is a lot higher than you think. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than 25% - which is not a small portion of the population.

But more importantly, extending crime (which is typically well-defined anti-social behavior and has well-defined effects) analogies to social interactions that are
1) relatively commonplace in human history and,
2) whose consequences depend on the reaction of the victim,
is an example of shallow and/or desperate thinking.

 

[ruby sparks]

These comments are not appropriate at the workplace.

I have a friend who actually called me yesterday to tell me about and ask for advice about a guy at her new job. HR apparently came out with a sexual harassment policy that includes something about not complimenting women on their looks. This guy apparently complained and argued ad nausemum with my friend how this is not sexual harrassment and he should be allowed to compliment her. Argued and complained for over an hour. She ended up ignoring him, and then he overhear her tell someone else that she was going to the gym after work. He then told her that "see if you allow me to compliment you, then you wouldn't feel like you have to go to the gym". I told her to go to HR and her supervisor, start documenting this and worst case video it.

This guy clearly does not understand what harassment is, and still feels entitled to his way of thinking. I think this is still harassment, just a different twist.

At first, I thought, eek, is that policy really necessary and could I say 'nice haircut' to a male colleague but not a female one, and then, shortly after 'ad nauseam' I began to wonder about this guy and by his last comment I was completely agreeing with your advice to your friend, even if he was ostensibly trying to be witty. And if he wasn't even that, it's a bit scary that there are men out there who would seriously think that way.

I finished with the additional thought, 'this is why I would never want to be and would not be very good at being either an HR manager or a football referee'.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It takes a pretty biased mind to rule out the possibility of rigidity in thinking rather than bias.

I'll bet that the numbers are quite a bit higher than 80% of people who would say that they have had something stolen from them at least once in their lives, but I wouldn't rule out that these thieves may be a small portion of the populace. They may be, and they may not be. The high number of victims isn't enough to judge on.

I'll be the number of people who say they have taken something that does not belong to them sometime in their life is a lot higher than you think. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than 25% - which is not a small portion of the population.

But more importantly, extending crime (which is typically well-defined anti-social behavior and has well-defined effects) analogies to social interactions that are
1) relatively commonplace in human history and,
2) whose consequences depend on the reaction of the victim,
is an example of shallow and/or desperate thinking.

You think you criticized what you quoted, but you didn't. Is that shallow and/or desperate thinking?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

These comments are not appropriate at the workplace.

Short of it being a modeling gig, I agree.

I have a friend who actually called me yesterday to tell me about and ask for advice about a guy at her new job. HR apparently came out with a sexual harassment policy that includes something about not complimenting women on their looks. This guy apparently complained and argued ad nausemum with my friend how this is not sexual harrassment and he should be allowed to compliment her. Argued and complained for over an hour.

He sounds like a creep and a nutter. Yes, he clearly doesn't understand what harassment it. I think that this is definitely harassment, but would distinguish it form a case where he hadn't been told not to do it, or had only complimented somebody once or twice. I'm curious if this policy applies to complimenting men on their appearance too. I see no reason to write it in a gendered way.

 

[southernhybrid]

These comments are not appropriate at the workplace.

I have a friend who actually called me yesterday to tell me about and ask for advice about a guy at her new job. HR apparently came out with a sexual harassment policy that includes something about not complimenting women on their looks. This guy apparently complained and argued ad nausemum with my friend how this is not sexual harrassment and he should be allowed to compliment her. Argued and complained for over an hour. She ended up ignoring him, and then he overhear her tell someone else that she was going to the gym after work. He then told her that "see if you allow me to compliment you, then you wouldn't feel like you have to go to the gym". I told her to go to HR and her supervisor, start documenting this and worst case video it.

This guy clearly does not understand what harassment is, and still feels entitled to his way of thinking. I think this is still harassment, just a different twist.

At first, I thought, eek, is that policy really necessary and could I say 'nice haircut' to a male colleague but not a female one, and then, shortly after 'ad nauseam' I began to wonder about this guy and by his last comment I was completely agreeing with your advice to your friend, even if he was ostensibly trying to be witty. And if he wasn't even that, it's a bit scary that there are men out there who would seriously think that way.

I finished with the additional thought, 'this is why I would never want to be and would not be very good at being either an HR manager or a football referee'.

Since I am now retired, and I rarely worked with men during my career, I will give my opinion. If a male coworker told me that he liked my new hair style or something as innocent as that, I would take it as a nonsexual compliment. But, during my last year of work, the maintenance man frequently said things to me that bordered on sexual harassment. For example, one day as I was walking toward the office at the start of the day, he said, "You look ravishing today. Come give me a big hug"! I just rolled my eyes and made sure that I was out of his reach. Another time he said to me, "If I had met you before you met your husband, oh boy etc." Ew. Ew. Ew. I don't know if I call that full fledged sexual harassment since he wasn't my superior and he was kind of a dumbass, but it was very inappropriate and I would have preferred that he had just wished me a good morning.

Now I am going to admit that every once in awhile there is a female employee that sexually harasses the men. My husband worked with such a woman in his final job. The thing is that none of the men felt threatened by Betty. She was a low level hourly employee. She even said inappropriate remarks to the plant manager. He told us that he sometimes didn't know what to do about her. Nobody ever complained about her or took her seriously. I don't think she ever tried to touch anyone. She just bragged about her many sexual conquests with famous soul singers and sometimes she made inappropriate comments. The thing is that none of the men ever seemed to care. Maybe there is a double standard or maybe most men don't take a woman like Betty seriously. Instead they seemed to think she was a hoot. Have any of the men here ever worked with a woman like Betty? Were you made to feel uncomfortable by her? Did you just think of her as a joke? In all of his working years, this was the only time that my husband worked with someone like that. Her behavior was certainly inappropriate but the employees had mostly all worked together for years, so perhaps it was more like having a kooky family member that sometimes says inappropriate things.

I also think there is a big difference between a superior making inappropriate remarks and someone that is in a low level position making those remarks. One has the power to fire you or make you work life miserable. The other has no power over you. I never ever felt threatened by the maintenance man. He was 71 years old and I was 68. I would never even consider reporting him. I just thought he was a jerk.

 

[Jarhyn]

These comments are not appropriate at the workplace.

I have a friend who actually called me yesterday to tell me about and ask for advice about a guy at her new job. HR apparently came out with a sexual harassment policy that includes something about not complimenting women on their looks. This guy apparently complained and argued ad nausemum with my friend how this is not sexual harrassment and he should be allowed to compliment her. Argued and complained for over an hour. She ended up ignoring him, and then he overhear her tell someone else that she was going to the gym after work. He then told her that "see if you allow me to compliment you, then you wouldn't feel like you have to go to the gym". I told her to go to HR and her supervisor, start documenting this and worst case video it.

This guy clearly does not understand what harassment is, and still feels entitled to his way of thinking. I think this is still harassment, just a different twist.

At first, I thought, eek, is that policy really necessary and could I say 'nice haircut' to a male colleague but not a female one, and then, shortly after 'ad nauseam' I began to wonder about this guy and by his last comment I was completely agreeing with your advice to your friend, even if he was ostensibly trying to be witty. And if he wasn't even that, it's a bit scary that there are men out there who would seriously think that way.

I finished with the additional thought, 'this is why I would never want to be and would not be very good at being either an HR manager or a football referee'.

Since I am now retired, and I rarely worked with men during my career, I will give my opinion. If a male coworker told me that he liked my new hair style or something as innocent as that, I would take it as a nonsexual compliment. But, during my last year of work, the maintenance man frequently said things to me that bordered on sexual harassment. For example, one day as I was walking toward the office at the start of the day, he said, "You look ravishing today. Come give me a big hug"! I just rolled my eyes and made sure that I was out of his reach. Another time he said to me, "If I had met you before you met your husband, oh boy etc." Ew. Ew. Ew. I don't know if I call that full fledged sexual harassment since he wasn't my superior and he was kind of a dumbass, but it was very inappropriate and I would have preferred that he had just wished me a good morning.

Now I am going to admit that every once in awhile there is a female employee that sexually harasses the men. My husband worked with such a woman in his final job. The thing is that none of the men felt threatened by Betty. She was a low level hourly employee. She even said inappropriate remarks to the plant manager. He told us that he sometimes didn't know what to do about her. Nobody ever complained about her or took her seriously. I don't think she ever tried to touch anyone. She just bragged about her many sexual conquests with famous soul singers and sometimes she made inappropriate comments. The thing is that none of the men ever seemed to care. Maybe there is a double standard or maybe most men don't take a woman like Betty seriously. Instead they seemed to think she was a hoot. Have any of the men here ever worked with a woman like Betty? Were you made to feel uncomfortable by her? Did you just think of her as a joke? In all of his working years, this was the only time that my husband worked with someone like that. Her behavior was certainly inappropriate but the employees had mostly all worked together for years, so perhaps it was more like having a kooky family member that sometimes says inappropriate things.

I also think there is a big difference between a superior making inappropriate remarks and someone that is in a low level position making those remarks. One has the power to fire you or make you work life miserable. The other has no power over you. I never ever felt threatened by the maintenance man. He was 71 years old and I was 68. I would never even consider reporting him. I just thought he was a jerk.

There doesn't have o be a power asymmetry for something to be sexual harassment. This is very clear-cut sexual harassment. If you were still in that situation, the proper response is "please quit making such comments to me" and then document the time, the comment, and their response i any, then the next time it happens, document it and take said documentation to HR.

 

[ruby sparks]

Have any of the men here ever worked with a woman like Betty? Were you made to feel uncomfortable by her?

I'll just pick up on this. Thanks for the rest too.

I can't say specifically, but from how you describe her, no, I haven't worked with a woman like Betty.

I might offer that it is, I think, fairly well accepted (including by the relevant scientists, which would include sociologists) that men (generalising here) often feel differently about sexual advances from the opposite sex than women do. As such, I think it's fair to say that the same behaviour can be received in different ways.

To add some support to this, I recall again the study done on college students where 'confederates' (other students recruited by the experimenters) posing as 'fellow students' approached students of the opposite sex and asked them a series of questions ranging between asking them if they would have a coffee, a date, or whether they would come up to the confederates room, up to whether they would have sex. I don't recall the exact figures but male students responded 'yes' to the last offer (sex) at between 4 and 15 times the rate at which female students did (there were different variations of the scenario, in one the male rate was 4 times, in another it was 15 times the female rate).

I think this is the study:

https://interpersona.psychopen.eu/article/view/121/html#d2e414


ETA: Ouch. It seems the students being surveyed were shown 'typical' photos and asked questions. It was not, as I thought, that there were confederates supposedly asking on their own behalf. Or maybe that was a different study.

 

[Toni]

I no longer believe that men believe that girls and women are flattered by men's comments on their bodies or body parts

Are you saying that they never are? Or are you just talking about construction workers whistling and hooting etc? Certainly some women are very much appreciative of being told that they are beautiful, in the right context and by the right guy. Creepiness happens when men either misread or don't pay regard to the signs of where and when that context is. A lot of men are very bad at this sort of social navigation.

These comments are not appropriate in a workplace or in a general public environment. An exception might be a photographer or other person in the fashion industry commenting on how a garment fits or what flatters. BTW, the fashion industry is rife with sexual abuse, so there's that.

I am certain there are times/places outside of an established personal relationship that includes sexual involvement where comments about a person's personal appearance are entirely appropriate but I can't really think of any right now.

Women are so socialized to avoid expressing anger or dislike that they often smile or duck their heads shyly when someone makes an inappropriate comment. Stunned silence is also not uncommon. It's difficult: calling someone a sexist bastard at work can get you in more trouble than the creep commenting on the fit of your blouse or the length of your skirt.

 

[ruby sparks]

Ok I've thought about it and I feel that a workplace policy of not allowing comments on appearance is in principle too draconian and a bit killjoy, imo.

So shoot me.

Yeah, there will be many times certain comments are 'bad', or indicative of something unpalatable (as in the example given above by starwater) but not all. Such a policy is effectively ruling out giving reasonable compliments to others in a place where many people spend half their waking lives interacting with other humans and are encouraged to get on well with each other.

I also think only having the rule about only women's appearance would be.......iffy, especially if it only related to comment from men.

 

[laughing dog]

It takes a pretty biased mind to rule out the possibility of rigidity in thinking rather than bias.

I'll bet that the numbers are quite a bit higher than 80% of people who would say that they have had something stolen from them at least once in their lives, but I wouldn't rule out that these thieves may be a small portion of the populace. They may be, and they may not be. The high number of victims isn't enough to judge on.

I'll be the number of people who say they have taken something that does not belong to them sometime in their life is a lot higher than you think. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than 25% - which is not a small portion of the population.

But more importantly, extending crime (which is typically well-defined anti-social behavior and has well-defined effects) analogies to social interactions that are
1) relatively commonplace in human history and,
2) whose consequences depend on the reaction of the victim,
is an example of shallow and/or desperate thinking.

You think you criticized what you quoted, but you didn't. Is that shallow and/or desperate thinking?

It would be if your first sentence was correct. Since it isn't, your response is an example of either poor reading comprehension or desperate and shallow thinking.

 

[bilby]

Ok I've thought about it and I feel that a workplace policy of not allowing comments on appearance is in principle too draconian and a bit killjoy, imo.

So shoot me.

Yeah, there will be many times certain comments are 'bad' but not all. Such a policy is effectively ruling out giving reasonable compliments.

Actually, it's not.

It's just placing all of the power in the hands of the recipient.

If a man compliments a woman and that makes her feel good and happy, then no complaint is made to HR, and it is completely irrelevant what policy is or is not in place.

The practical effect of this policy is to render the excuse 'I was trying to give her a compliment' null and void, in any case where a woman feels demeaned, harrassed or upset about something that was said about her appearance. It's a declaration that intent of the speaker is irrelevant, and the feelings of the person whose appearance is being discussed will always take primacy in any subsequent discussion or disciplinary hearing.

The letter of the policy is unimportant. It's effect is appropriate, and mere technical breaches of it will go unreported, and as such not be prevented or impacted at all.

Making a rule against a behaviour doesn't actually prevent that behaviour from happening. If it did, bank vaults wouldn't need doors.

 

[ruby sparks]

If a man compliments a woman and that makes her feel good and happy, then no complaint is made to HR, and it is completely irrelevant what policy is or is not in place.

But surely though that would not be under a policy for not complimenting women on their appearance? Which is then not what I would be inclined to be against.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Have any of the men here ever worked with a woman like Betty?

I haven't had the experience where she was a powerless receptionist or filing clerk.

I did have an interesting experience though, working at a business where the boss' wife was working there as a book keeper and surrogate boss. She thought her husbnad was cheating on her (probably true) and her way to vent was to routinely make sexual comments to me and other guys she worked with. She once brought me into her office to ask me what kind of lingerie would look best on her as she browsed a website of it. She was 60+ and obese. It was definitely uncomfortable. I was disgusted by her, but I more so pitied her.

 

[Politesse]

Recently overheard at a department meeting:

M: Well, I just don't see that something like a compliment is going to be grounds for firing. I mean, who doesn't say things like "hey that dress really suits you" or "your hair looks great today"? That builds morale, it doesn't mean anything more than that and everyone knows it. Aren't we professionals?

F: The thing is, would you walk up to Dave over there and tell him that he looks good in those pants?

M: Sure.

F. So do it then.

M: ... Okay no. I mean he does I guess, but..

F: But what?

M: Silence

F: *raised eyebrow*

M *Silence*

F. But he'd think you were hitting on him?

M: Ok, crap, fine, you got a point.

I paraphrase, but it went along those lines (M and F are both trained sociologists, too...)

 

[bilby]

If a man compliments a woman and that makes her feel good and happy, then no complaint is made to HR, and it is completely irrelevant what policy is or is not in place.

But surely though that would not then be under a policy for not complimenting women on their appearance? Which is then not what I am against.

Huh?

Everything I have written assumes that the policy is in place.

A man who breaks the rules suffers no penalty for doing so unless he is reported for breaking the rules.

If a genuine compliment is made, and makes its subject feel good, who reports this to the authorities?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

"We don't live in a male-dominated culture!"

Looks at the number of U.S. presidents who have been male.

 

[ruby sparks]

If a man compliments a woman and that makes her feel good and happy, then no complaint is made to HR, and it is completely irrelevant what policy is or is not in place.

But surely though that would not then be under a policy for not complimenting women on their appearance? Which is then not what I am against.

Huh?

Everything I have written assumes that the policy is in place.

A man who breaks the rules suffers no penalty for doing so unless he is reported for breaking the rules.

If a genuine compliment is made, and makes its subject feel good, who reports this to the authorities?

Huh? to you too. I don't get it.

How about, what is the point of having the policy of no complimenting if the management still have to decide whether this or that compliment is inappropriate or not? Why not a policy on 'inappropriate compilments' or better still, 'inappropriate comments' (since that would cover derogatory comments too)?

Plus, what is to stop anyone from merely citing someone (or indeed admonishing) on a whim, someone they don't like?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I paraphrase, but it went along those lines (M and F are both trained sociologists, too...)

It could have a strong cultural component that varies from place to place. I've heard and I've myself made compliments from men to men about their appearance every now and again. I've heard compliments from women to women about their appearance frequently, in fact far more frequently than from men to women.

 

[bilby]

Huh?

Everything I have written assumes that the policy is in place.

A man who breaks the rules suffers no penalty for doing so unless he is reported for breaking the rules.

If a genuine compliment is made, and makes its subject feel good, who reports this to the authorities?

Huh? to you too. I don't get it.

How about, what is the point of having the policy of no complimenting if the management still have to decide whether this or that compliment is inappropriate or not?

Plus, what is to stop anyone from merely citing someone (or indeed admonishing) on a whim, someone they don't like?

Management DON'T have to decide. That's the point.

If a complaint is made, then the intent of the "compliment" and/or the details of what exactly was said are irrelevant, and the only defence becomes that you didn't mention her appearance (because any such mention is against the rules).

If someone has been offended, the perpetrator cannot weasel out of it by claiming good intentions.

But if nobody's offended, nothing happens at all - so a genuine non-harrasing comment will not result in any action.

There's currently nothing to prevent malicious and untrue reports. So nothing changes in that regard.

 

[ruby sparks]

Management DON'T have to decide. That's the point.

If a complaint is made, then the intent of the "compliment" and/or the details of what exactly was said are irrelevant, and the only defence becomes that you didn't mention her appearance (because any such mention is against the rules).

If someone has been offended, the perpetrator cannot weasel out of it by claiming good intentions.

But if nobody's offended, nothing happens at all - so a genuine non-harrasing comment will not result in any action.

Not following you. At all. Starting with the first sentence.