What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?

[Toni]

Women have this lifetime of pent up anger and hatred and it's becoming far more socially acceptable for them to express this and demand better treatment. Men listening to them isn't the answer, it's changing what's acceptable behavior that's the answer.

This isn't the mere demanding of better treatment from people who abused the writer. An article written like this about black people or jews or women or homosexuals or [pick your oppression Olympics winner] would be rightly dismissed.

You're right: it's not merely demanding better treatment for one person. It's flat out saying that that we need to do a better job of raising boys and expecting men to do more be passive bystanders but to stand up for what is right.

Just as white people need to stand up and do what is right for people of color and what cis straight people need to do for LGBTQ. You're right. We ALL need to stand up.

Every last one of us.

 

[Toni]

I can't read the article at the Washington Post (paywall) but if it's this:

"In the centuries of feminist movements that have washed up and away, good men have not once organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture. Not once. Bastards. Don’t listen to me. Listen to each other. Talk to each other. Earn your power for once.

The gender war that has broken out in this country is flooding all our houses. It’s rising on the torrent of memories that every woman has."

http://www.unz.com/isteve/washingto...aping-us-all-you-good-men-but-its-not-enough/

Then, eek. That is more than a bit ott, in my opinion. I'm not sure how much good is achieved by this kind of hyperbolic venting. It may even (probably is) one reason why being a feminist is a self-identification for the minority these days, including a minority of women (only 7-9% of women here in the UK I believe, and something like 16-18% in the USA).

To get behind the paywall, you merely need to be in an anonymous browser. One is allowed a limited number of free articles/month. At least that's how it works on this side of the pond.

 

[Toni]

You should read to the end: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...od-men-its-not-enough/?utm_term=.4e7b125f3237

A whole lot of pent up hatred in that article. Men bad. Women good. Listen to women. Shout at men. Men responsible for other men. Got it. Now go ahead and womansplain how I don't understand.

Well, that's the explicitly stated entire point of the article. Women have this lifetime of pent up anger and hatred and it's becoming far more socially acceptable for them to express this and demand better treatment. Men listening to them isn't the answer, it's changing what's acceptable behavior that's the answer.

Thank you for explaining to Jolly what he would never hear from a woman. And for correctly identifying anger vs Jolly's characterization of anger as hatred.

 

[ZiprHead]

I can't read the article at the Washington Post (paywall)

Open in an incognito window if you hit the paywall and you'll get through.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Women have this lifetime of pent up anger and hatred and it's becoming far more socially acceptable for them to express this and demand better treatment. Men listening to them isn't the answer, it's changing what's acceptable behavior that's the answer.

This isn't the mere demanding of better treatment from people who abused the writer. An article written like this about black people or jews or women or homosexuals or [pick your oppression Olympics winner] would be rightly dismissed.

Well sure. If you make a deliberate point of obstinately ignoring everything that the article is saying, you can read it as saying anything you want. That’s always helpful in using it to have an article which backs up an opinion when nobody's actually written an article you can use for backup.

 

[ruby sparks]

To get behind the paywall, you merely need to be in an anonymous browser. One is allowed a limited number of free articles/month. At least that's how it works on this side of the pond.

Open in an incognito window if you hit the paywall and you'll get through.

Thanks.

I've read it now. I won't repeat my reservations. I've already aired them.

 

[Toni]

To get behind the paywall, you merely need to be in an anonymous browser. One is allowed a limited number of free articles/month. At least that's how it works on this side of the pond.

Open in an incognito window if you hit the paywall and you'll get through.

Thanks.

I've read it now. I won't repeat my reservations. I've already aired them.

You seem like a nice enough guys. In my experience, most guys seem to think of themselves as nice guys or nice enough. It’s often true, too.

Here’s the thing that no one wants to hear: being nice is not enough.

There is no amount of nice, of innocuous, of inoffensive, of demure, of submissiveness, that is enough to protect a girl or a woman from the dozens and dozens of whistles, touches, grabs, insinuations, assaults that she will face. I tried being nice but it only got me another grab, another disgusting suggestion with a threat of force to back it up. I learned that the only way to stop that shit was to let my anger flare, let my strength and power show. I learned to do it at the very first suggestion. Because being nice, avoiding, trying to be unnoticeable did not work. It made me an easier target. I was taught to be nice, to be sweet, quiet, demure. I was taught that it was wrong for me to express anger and outrage. All that got me was nearly raped. That sweet girl crap was supposed to make me more attractive. It made me an easier target. So I learned to stand up for myself.

I learned to stand up for others. It is surprising how little it takes for even a pretty small woman with a pretty soft voice to get an asshole to back down.

Nice guys need to learn to stand up for others, too. Or else you just aren’t really that nice.

 

[laughing dog]

Women have this lifetime of pent up anger and hatred and it's becoming far more socially acceptable for them to express this and demand better treatment. Men listening to them isn't the answer, it's changing what's acceptable behavior that's the answer.

This isn't the mere demanding of better treatment from people who abused the writer. An article written like this about black people or jews or women or homosexuals or [pick your oppression Olympics winner] would be rightly dismissed.

You're right: it's not merely demanding better treatment for one person. It's flat out saying that that we need to do a better job of raising boys and expecting men to do more be passive bystanders but to stand up for what is right.

Just as white people need to stand up and do what is right for people of color and what cis straight people need to do for LGBTQ. You're right. We ALL need to stand up.

Every last one of us.

But you and the article are employing the dreaded "identity politics" to pick on men as a group which unfairly demonizes men!!!!! Ergo, your cited article and your post are simply examples of the most leaders in the "Oppression Olympics" and hatred, so the actual message (that most people get) can be ignored in the name of "liberalism" and "egalitarianism".

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

]
You're right: it's not merely demanding better treatment for one person. It's flat out saying that that we need to do a better job of raising boys and expecting men to do more be passive bystanders but to stand up for what is right.

Just as white people need to stand up and do what is right for people of color and what cis straight people need to do for LGBTQ. You're right. We ALL need to stand up.

Every last one of us.

Now, that I can support. That is not this article.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I was taught that it was wrong for me to express anger and outrage.

That is very wrong. You should stand against those who wrong you. I will stand with you and for you on that.

So I learned to stand up for myself.

That isn't what you do here. You attack others, including those who have no connection to those who wronged you except for having the same gender. And you gender everything. You claim I "don't hear you because you are a woman". That is created entirely in your mind, and makes other things you write suspect.

 

[Toni]

Now, that I can support. That is not this article.

- - - Updated - - -



Now, that I can support. That is not this article.

Sure. That’s the article. The problem I think you are having is that it points out exactly why women are so angry and that nice men cannot skate by on being nice.

Nor can white people skate by on simply moving to nice white neighborhoods where they can write a check now and then and pretend that racism happens in other places .

And straight people cannot simply decline to use slurs and call it good.

The author of the article is a woman and she is writing from her own perspective. It’s just too easy for men to think that not actually raping a woman makes him a good guy. Girls are raised to notice and to care about the feelings of others. Boys are not. It is easier to think that lack of actually committing a violent act yourself is sufficient.

Lots of Germans did not approve of concentration camps. Heck, lots didn’t even ‘know’ that they existed. That didn’t make them good people.

Thank you for explaining to Jolly what he would never hear from a woman.

And there is hatred again.

No, you’re just projecting. Again.

 

[laughing dog]

]
You're right: it's not merely demanding better treatment for one person. It's flat out saying that that we need to do a better job of raising boys and expecting men to do more be passive bystanders but to stand up for what is right.

Just as white people need to stand up and do what is right for people of color and what cis straight people need to do for LGBTQ. You're right. We ALL need to stand up.

Every last one of us.

Now, that I can support. That is not this article.

That article's point is that listening is insufficient and that action is needed - so it is exactly that article The fact you are incapable of either acknowledging or understanding that indicates a deep ideological bias.

 

[ruby sparks]

Can I just check again. The article. The one we're talking about. Is it the one with this (below) in it, or not?

"In the centuries of feminist movements that have washed up and away, good men have not once organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture. Not once. Bastards."

I think maybe I must have read a different article to others or something.

 

[Toni]

Can I just check again. The article. The one we're talking about. Is it the one with this (below) in it, or not?

"In the centuries of feminist movements that have washed up and away, good men have not once organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture. Not once. Bastards."

I think maybe I must have read a different article to others or something.

That’s in the article.

 

[ruby sparks]

I'm sticking with ott then.

 

[Toni]

I'm sticking with ott then.

Of course you are.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The author of the article is a woman and she is writing from her own perspective. It’s just too easy for men to think that not actually raping a woman makes him a good guy. Girls are raised to notice and to care about the feelings of others. Boys are not. It is easier to think that lack of actually committing a violent act yourself is sufficient.

This is an unfair generalization of men, that we're raised to be unempathetic. I was raised to be not only strong but considerate, and many other men have been as well. Have I failed at points? Sure. But not due to the gender of my antagonist -- my failings are more a matter of a "I'm not taking this shit from you or anyone else" stack at the end of my fuse. But my bar is a hell of a lot higher than "At least I'm not a rapist". Lump me in with a group all you want, but realize that when you cast such broad generalizations you will inevitably slur good people too.

I don't know what measures as "too easy" on your scale, but I've never defined my goodness by simply not being a rapist. I've never had to fight any urge to rape a woman; I was raised to put myself in the shoes of others, and that teaching wasn't wrapped in gender pronouns. I've given a lot of thought about what it means to be good or evil, and it'd be nice if you could recognize that the experiences of many men do not reflect your views, which as voiced in this post seem terribly binary to me.

 

[WAB]

The author of the article is a woman and she is writing from her own perspective. It’s just too easy for men to think that not actually raping a woman makes him a good guy. Girls are raised to notice and to care about the feelings of others. Boys are not. It is easier to think that lack of actually committing a violent act yourself is sufficient.

This is an unfair generalization of men, that we're raised to be unempathetic. I was raised to be not only strong but considerate, and many other men have been as well. Have I failed at points? Sure. But not due to the gender of my antagonist -- my failings are more a matter of a "I'm not taking this shit from you or anyone else" stack at the end of my fuse. But my bar is a hell of a lot higher than "At least I'm not a rapist". Lump me in with a group all you want, but realize that when you cast such broad generalizations you will inevitably slur good people too.

I don't know what measures as "too easy" on your scale, but I've never defined my goodness by simply not being a rapist. I've never had to fight any urge to rape a woman; I was raised to put myself in the shoes of others, and that teaching wasn't wrapped in gender pronouns. I've given a lot of thought about what it means to be good or evil, and it'd be nice if you could recognize that the experiences of many men do not reflect your views, which as voiced in this post seem terribly binary to me.

Well said. And I feel the same way.

 

[thebeave]

The author of the article is a woman and she is writing from her own perspective. It’s just too easy for men to think that not actually raping a woman makes him a good guy. Girls are raised to notice and to care about the feelings of others. Boys are not. It is easier to think that lack of actually committing a violent act yourself is sufficient.

This is an unfair generalization of men, that we're raised to be unempathetic. I was raised to be not only strong but considerate, and many other men have been as well. Have I failed at points? Sure. But not due to the gender of my antagonist -- my failings are more a matter of a "I'm not taking this shit from you or anyone else" stack at the end of my fuse. But my bar is a hell of a lot higher than "At least I'm not a rapist". Lump me in with a group all you want, but realize that when you cast such broad generalizations you will inevitably slur good people too.

I don't know what measures as "too easy" on your scale, but I've never defined my goodness by simply not being a rapist. I've never had to fight any urge to rape a woman; I was raised to put myself in the shoes of others, and that teaching wasn't wrapped in gender pronouns. I've given a lot of thought about what it means to be good or evil, and it'd be nice if you could recognize that the experiences of many men do not reflect your views, which as voiced in this post seem terribly binary to me.

Well said. And I feel the same way.

Count me in too. I personally have risked my life to save the life of an elderly woman I had never met, who slipped on some ice while descending the trail down Mt. Whitney (tallest peak in the continental US) 19 years ago. Her son was with her at the time and yelled down to Trail Camp below at dusk for assistance, and myself and about five other random men heeded the call. She slid/tumbled a good 30 feet or so down a steep, but mostly smooth slope before miraculously landing on a small ledge just before a steep and surely fatal drop off. To make a long story short, I was the one who volunteered to make the steep descent with only a headlamp to where she was and guide/push/pull her back to the trail at great risk to myself (she was tied into a rope, I was not). By a little after 1 in the morning, we were back in camp. My story is not particularly unique. Look on youtube and you'll see videos of men risking life and limb to save the lives of random women they've never met. Rarely do you see the same actions with the genders reversed. Yes, there are rapists and abusers among us men, but I don't know how anyone can fail to recognize the good deeds and sacrifices that men have done for women.

 

[Toni]

The author of the article is a woman and she is writing from her own perspective. It’s just too easy for men to think that not actually raping a woman makes him a good guy. Girls are raised to notice and to care about the feelings of others. Boys are not. It is easier to think that lack of actually committing a violent act yourself is sufficient.

This is an unfair generalization of men, that we're raised to be unempathetic. I was raised to be not only strong but considerate, and many other men have been as well. Have I failed at points? Sure. But not due to the gender of my antagonist -- my failings are more a matter of a "I'm not taking this shit from you or anyone else" stack at the end of my fuse. But my bar is a hell of a lot higher than "At least I'm not a rapist". Lump me in with a group all you want, but realize that when you cast such broad generalizations you will inevitably slur good people too.

I don't know what measures as "too easy" on your scale, but I've never defined my goodness by simply not being a rapist. I've never had to fight any urge to rape a woman; I was raised to put myself in the shoes of others, and that teaching wasn't wrapped in gender pronouns. I've given a lot of thought about what it means to be good or evil, and it'd be nice if you could recognize that the experiences of many men do not reflect your views, which as voiced in this post seem terribly binary to me.

Please note that in the snippet you quoted, I was talking about the author’s perspective. It’s one that I largely—if not 100% share.

I’m sure you are a good person. I’m sure you are a good man and are good to everyone in your life and to strangers and passers by. I believe that.

Nonetheless, even on this forum, there are many male posters who excuse (white) rapists, who don’t think it is a big deal for women and girls to put up with being harassed on the street, on the job, in schools. Who about lost their minds when a piece about how some women felt their lives would change if men had a 9 pm curfew—not a thread proposing a curfew for men but one discussing how women might feel if men had a curfew. And men lost their minds! As if women are not constantly being told to avoid going out at night, to watch their drinks and how much they drink, what they wear, what they say. These are all things women do every day of our lives—for our own safety. Can you imagine?

I am sure that you would never catcall or harass a woman or slip something in her drink, much less assault her or even insult her.

But I’m also sure that men and boys influence one another more than women and girls do. This is an area where I feel that men do need to step up, to influence other men and boys to rest girls and women with not just courtesy but with respect. To empathasize with women.