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What Do Socialism and Capitalism Mean to You

1. the question of wether socialism works or capitalism works is an unanswerable question
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West German Embassy, Prague, Czechoslovakia, 1989
Yeah. The thing that made the Soviet/Warsaw Pact bloc an intolerable place to live was Socialism. :rolleyesa:

To paraphrase James Carville, "It's not just the economy, stupid".

The problem with the Eastern bloc, as with the modern USA*, is that promoting a single set of solutions that admit no other is invariably disastrous. Just because roast pork is delicious, that's not a reason to eliminate all other options for food preparation; Roast ice cream is a disaster.

The USA is less of a disaster because it has a representative democracy, which allows people to more effectively oppose the dumbest extremes of anti-socialist totalitarianism. Nevertheless it has much higher levels of homelessness, poverty, and incarceration than the more mixed economies of Western Europe, and this is largely because it's obsessed with doing things in whatever way is least Socialist, even when it's bloody obvious that a socialist system would be most suitable (eg in the provision of healthcare).

The Eastern Bloc was a disaster because its political structures (and the power vacuum left by the cataclysms of two World Wars) made it possible for an ideologically driven enthusiast (ie Joe Stalin) to completely impose their brilliance on everyone else. If a free market obsessed libertarian had similar access to unfettered political power to force their economic agenda on Americans, they would need a border wall to stop people from fleeing too.

Monomania is a shit way to run a society; That we have a clear example of disastrous Socialist monomania in the Soviet bloc shouldn't fool us into thinking it's the particular form that this monomania took that is the problem - Free market capitalism coupled with monomanaical nationalism was even more disastrous for Germany, and monomanaical theocracy has bee a disaster for Persia.

The problem, as always, is enthusiasts. To protect our way of life, we must hang every last extremist.



*Less of a problem in the USA because the more extreme elements have largely been subject to constitutional checks and balances, so far...
 
entitlements like SS,
I liked the post above, but wish people weren’t conditioned to call SS an “entitlement“. One is only “entitled” to what they have paid in to the SS system, and sometimes not even that. Mrs Elixir, for instance, paid FICA for a few years but came up a quarter short of being able to collect.
The fact that even a lib’rul like SH is habituated to calling it an entitlement is a testament to the effectiveness of right wing propaganda.
Nope. I call it an entitlement because I paid into it for almost 50 years, therefore I am entitled to the benefit. I've never understood why so many people are bothered by the word, entitlement.
Social Security in the US is defined as an entitlement system. It requires contributions during your (or your spouse's) working life in order to qualify for benefits, but once that requirement is met, all people are ENTITLED to an allotment. And that allotment is not proportional to what was contributed. If someone earns more and contributes the maximum that SS takes out of your paycheck, you don't get any more in benefits than someone who contributed the bare minimum. The fact that it is an entitlement system is part of why there's a maximum contribution in the first place.

Social Security is not a pension, nor is it retirement insurance. It's not structured like either of those at all, and it doesn't follow the same rules.
The amount of your social security benefit is dependent on how much you contribute. How much you earned during your working years determines your allotment. My wife's check was different from mine. Look it up.
Yes, it is dependent to a degree. But not in the way you seem to be implying.

The money you pay in taxes isn’t held in a personal account for you to use when you get benefits. We use your taxes to pay people who are getting benefits right now.

As you work and pay taxes, you earn Social Security “credits.” In 2023, you earn 1 credit for each $1,640 in earnings — up to a maximum of 4 credits per year. The amount of money needed to earn 1 credit usually goes up every year. Most people need 40 credits (10 years of work) to qualify for benefits.

There's a high likelihood that your spouse gets less than you... because she is your wife and you earned more. The highest earner sets the benefit level, the spouse gets less - even if they also contributed the absolute maximum amount.

• All retired workers: $1,827.
• Retired worker with only an aged spouse: $2,972.

You're right that technically there is a difference between how much someone gets in benefits based on how much they contributed... but the difference is actually relatively small. Additionally, the benefit for higher earning people is quite low as a percentage of their contribution, whereas a lower earning person would get a much higher percentage of their contribution. It's shifted to provide higher relative benefits for lower income people.
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Today on economics with Emily Lake... we discuss how small a difference $1,200 a month and $3,300 a month is. And afterward, Emily's take on Science... Celsius, Fahrenheit... it's just a number.
 
The best way to advance socialism is by modifying the existing state capitalism, moving it away from sustaining the corporations and toward support for small entrepreneurs. One way to do this is to provide guaranteed low interest loans to business start-ups. Another way is to radically redirect investment away from real estate and toward business development by penalizing ownership of multiple properties through progressive taxation.
 
Today on economics with Emily Lake... we discuss how small a difference $1,200 a month and $3,300 a month is. And afterward, Emily's take on Science... Celsius, Fahrenheit... it's just a number.
Lol, let's Moore-Coulter this. Is there a difference in magnitude at play here?
In terms of contributions, we're talking a monthly value of $2480 versus $13350.

So the relativity for benefits is 2.75, whereas the relativity for contributions is 5.38.

I stand by what I said: The difference is relatively small. Not that it's nonexistent, just that relative to the contribution scale, it's not that big.
 
Minor socialistic redistribution. We could also argue that the tax structure favors those with higher incomes. Those with the highest incomes have little reason to worry about what income they will receive from social security.
 
If someone earns more and contributes the maximum that SS takes out of your paycheck, you don't get any more in benefits than someone who contributed the bare minimum. The fact that it is an entitlement system is part of why there's a maximum contribution in the first place.
I guess I should be looking for a lawyer - my draw is lower than what people who contributed more are getting. It’s also more than some people’s who made less, but they probably can’t afford lawyers.
🤪
 
What do socialism and capitalism mean to you and has your understanding of these words changed since you first encountered them?
I'll answer the latter question first: Yes, my understanding has changed.

My earliest exposure was based on Germany and the Soviet Union both incorporating "socialist" into their parties, in ways that seemed pretty anti-social to me. Also, totally wrong, of course. Then for a long time I thought of it as "communism light" based on the technical definition of socialism as being social control of the means of production - which I did (and still do) think is an abysmal idea.

As I've gotten older, I've kind of scrapped all the academic jargon and the politically charged views. Both are ways of organizing an economy. Capitalism refers to a system where the consumer drives the bus - whatever sells is what gets made, whatever sells better gets made more. Socialism refers to a system where the government drives the bus - whatever is needed gets made, and whatever is needed more gets made more. Neither is a perfect view, but in practice that seems to be the core of it.

In terms of reality... neither is perfect, and they both have their role. I tend to favor a largely capitalist structure for most trade. I think that the concepts behind it are best suited to human nature, and they provide a reasonable means to provide options and choice to the greatest number of people. But left completely unfettered, there's opportunity for exploitation in all sorts of ways. There are a lot of potential pitfalls, but to me the largest fall into a few categories.

There's the risk of very large companies taking a monopoly role in the market, which then gobbles up all the surplus value that makes the whole thing work. This is particularly problematic when those monopolies are associated with services that most people would consider necessary - water, power, sanitation, etc.

Then there's the risk of what I'll call "silent collusion" between large players within a particular industry, where the companies involved all realize that they can collectively push the price of something up and they all win as long as nobody rocks the boat. It's not direct collusion, there's no meetings about it. It's just sort of something that happens. This happens a lot when there's a bit of a middle man involved, and it tends to more often be the primary suppliers upping the costs to the middle men, who then pass it on to the end customer. I see this a lot in the health care industry, with pharmaceuticals and medical devices. The primary manufacturers know that there's a middle-man who spreads the cost risk, and they take full advantage of it. Customer end up angry at the insurers for the high price of health care, even though it is being driven by the profit margins at the provider end of the deal.

There are others, but I think this captures the problem - there's a risk of bad actors exploiting loopholes and basically profiteering.

When it comes to socialism, it has the opposite problem - lack of choice. This can lead to quality-related pitfalls, as well as sometimes the government thinking it knows what is important to people and being wrong about it. In many parts of the US, water and power are effectively socialized industries. We usually only have one choice for those services... and if they suck then you're just screwed.

Socialism can also lead to resource constraints that aren't always necessary. I end up going back to my area of expertise, because it's where I have the most concrete knowledge... so health care again. One common refrain we hear from UK and Canada is excessively long wait times, sometimes not being able to get access to a doctor, sometimes being denied care that is quality of life but not directly life saving (like knee surgeries and similar things that reduce pain and increase mobility, but they don't actually make you dead if they're not fixed).

By themselves, both of those can lead to problems. So over the years, I've ended up favoring a hybrid. I tend to want essential services to be socialized, but with civilian oversight committees with term limits so you don't end up with entrenched interests playing games. I think the oversight is necessary so that quality and resources can be addressed by representatives of the people actually using those services. I think it would also be a good idea to have multiple committees that vary by geography - not all parts of the country are going to have the same needs at the same times.

On the other hand, I'd like to see most non-essential businesses continue to be privately owned (also employee owned if a company wants to be). It increases competition and innovation. I also think that the "capital" element of capitalism - the investment in new ideas and in young companies - is something that is unlikely to come from a highly socialized system. You've got to have at least some people with enough extra cash that they're willing to take bets on something that might not work out - and that's something that the government shouldn't do with taxpayer money in my opinion.

So circling back to my sphere of knowledge, I'd love to see providers of health care socialized. I'd like to see the doctors, nurses, and other professional practitioners be government employees, paid a salary. Same with facilities - hospitals, urgent care centers, imaging centers, etc. would be government owned and government run. Medical supplies and pharmaceuticals should be negotiated at the federal level. This would help control primary costs. I think there's still a need for consumer oversight to make sure that government wages and payment levels aren't making it impossible to stay in business.

I would pair this with a subsidized health insurance system - something more akin to Medicare than current ACA is. A core set of reasonable benefits, with reasonable cost sharing for customers (helps to manage over utilization). But also allow private insurance to wrap around or to replace it, same as we do with Medicare Supplement and Medicare Advantage today. There would still be a lot of available choice, so that those who need more care can manage their financial investment in it, and those who don't use care aren't being charged so much that it risks bankruptcy. This would then also have government oversight - to make sure that insurance companies aren't exploiting customers or lining their pockets in an abusive way.

So yeah, really long answer. That's essentially how I perceive socialism and capitalism to be in the real world, outside of academic notions.
 
Both are ways of organizing an economy. Capitalism refers to a system where the consumer drives the bus - whatever sells is what gets made, whatever sells better gets made more. Socialism refers to a system where the government drives the bus - whatever is needed gets made, and whatever is needed more gets made more.
That's pretty much exactly my view, with the obvious caveat that nobody's more qualified than I to drive the bus.

;)
 
Healthcare is an excellent example of a product for which capitalism is poorly fitted - "customers" buy healthcare mostly because they have absolutely no option. They don't want to be in hospital having triple bypass surgery, they don't choose to be, and the cost of their operation is determined by their medical needs, rather than by anything they have control over.

You can't get a better triple bypass surgery because you're wealthy enough to buy a really top of the range one, either - the surgery either works, or it doesn't, and if your surgeon gets it wrong more often, that shouldn't mean he is forced to lower his prices and appeal to a lower budget consumer; it should mean he's going to be fired and sued for malpractice.

Nye Bevan hit the nail on the head with this one, when he created the National Health Service.

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Of course it no more follows that, as socialism is the best way to manage healthcare, socialism is also the best way to manage the provision of everything else.

There are some things that are clearly best managed by government, and some that are clearly best managed by the forces of supply and demand (in a market with regulations limited to the deterrence of cartels and monopolistic practices, and the arbitration of disputes).

As any big business can tell you, centralised government by a board of senior executives is a perfectly sensible way to operate. Some businesses do try to operate internal markets, with managers bidding for services from other departments within the organisation, rather than having budgetary controls imposed by the boardroom, but corporations that have made this work effectively are few and far between.

Even corporations know that a certain amount of central planning is a benefit to the common weal.
 
Both Socialism and Capitalism are meaningless buzzwords when used without any sort of context. Which is how they are used 99.9999999% of the time in political discourse.
^THAT
Outside of their utility as buzzwords, there is little use for them in serious discussion. Too hard to dissociate them from their du jour meanings.
 
I read that conservatives resent welfare for the poor because they are supposedly lazy deadbeats but bailouts for the rich are okay because they work hard.
And did you believe what you read because (a) what you read was written by conservatives describing their own views, and you figured they knew their own minds? Or did you believe what you read because (b) what you read was written by leftists describing their opponents' views, and in your experience what people say about their opponents' views is usually accurate?
 
I read that conservatives resent welfare for the poor because they are supposedly lazy deadbeats but bailouts for the rich are okay because they work hard.
And did you believe what you read because (a) what you read was written by conservatives describing their own views, and you figured they knew their own minds? Or did you believe what you read because (b) what you read was written by leftists describing their opponents' views, and in your experience what people say about their opponents' views is usually accurate?
Well, on the welfare side of things (or at least welfare for minorities... white people on welfare are hard hit by economic policies and were left behind), probably believes it because that is what conservatives have been saying for 30 plus years. Ronald Reagan gave us (or popularized) the term "Welfare Queen"! The GOP has long demonized welfare. Idiots like Gingrich tried to spin it differently saying black should demand jobs, not handouts... and wanted to kill the support part and give shade to the job supply side issue.
 
Consumer drives the bus in capitalism?
Essentially, yes. If consumers want a thing, that thing will be available. That doesn't mean that every consumer can afford every thing they want. But in general, yes.

Price is a bit of a different issue though - especially when you're dealing with large monopolistic companies that can slurp up all the surplus value.
 
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