What do you do about rape?

[EricB]

Teach martial arts and self defense.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I'm pretty sure I implied that I'm not comfortable with interacting with people. Also I would be a terrible instructor in any situation.

 

[angelo]

The good thing about masturbating is that your hand doesn't nag you to take out the trash or complain about the yard not being mowed.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having sex with Mrs Palmer and her five daughters regardless of what the damn pope says!!

 

[J842P]

With every new person born is a new potential assailant, so without some kind of fundamental change to global socialization, sexual violence is always going to be a problem.

That's why you can stop *a rape* from happening, but you can't stop *rape*.

Each new person born has the potential for both good and evil, and there is every evidence to suggest that those who are violent tend to be those who have been subjected to violence, or witnessed it in a normalising context.

So there's your butter knife. You live your life in the way you want the world to evolve, and imperceptibly move the dial on what we consider normal. Offer even a fleeting experience of kindness and rationality to children who aren't living in optimal circumstances. It increases their options for future behaviour. Their marginally improved behaviour contributes to your ripple effect.

Of course you can stop rape. You refrain, yourself. You discourage rapists and potential rapists, in the short term. You visualise and work towards the sort of society that is a bit more equal and a little less angry.

What you're saying aligns just fine with my previous post.

In this thread, and in almost every rape thread, I've questioned the assumption that rape is a *social* problem. Ultimately rape occurs for two reasons: 1) half of the human population is men, many unthinking, with hormones that are driving them to want sex at almost all times 2) this dynamic heavily reinforces what people call *rape culture*

So unless somehow we eliminate sex amongst our society (. . . ) or completely reverse the dynamic that our biology creates (. . . ), the mountain won't go away, which is the point I was making originally. I'm not trying to be negative about the situation, I'm redefining what I believe is actually the problem. So .. you can stop *a rape*, like you're saying, not *rape*.

Rape is not about sex. It is not sexually motivated with the possible exception of some statutory rape cases where the ages are not that far apart and maturity is basically on par. Maybe.

Rape is about power and control. Sex is just the means, not the end.


But yes, I think you have a point that we will probably never stop rape, just as we will never stop murder, stealing, assault, etc. But we can work to eliminate these evils. And we can start by stopping victim blaming and shaming.

OK, I hear the claim that rape is not about sex per se but about power and control all the time, but I've never heard any elaboration on that point. While I am willing to accept that there are many rapists that rape for reasons of power and control, and sex is merely the means to this end, I am very skeptical that this explains most rapes.

Here's a the abstract to an article on the subject I found after some brief googling:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3812897?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103808933561

The conclusion seems to be that there isn't any good evidence that the common claim that the majority or that most rapes are not motivated by sexual gratification is true.

 

[angelo]

Today in the 21st century western world it's even more so that 90% of rapes are power control. [today sex is widely available] and sexual gratification is secondary to an attack. Of course there's date rape where the felon may take the lady to an expensive restaurant and after spending a small fortune he expects sex at the end of the night. But this creep is still on a power surge because a gentleman can take no for an answer while the creep thinks "how dare you refuse me" attitude. These are the creeps, scumbags who beat women up, who think they are the king and any woman is there to serve him.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

With every new person born is a new potential assailant, so without some kind of fundamental change to global socialization, sexual violence is always going to be a problem.

That's why you can stop *a rape* from happening, but you can't stop *rape*.

Each new person born has the potential for both good and evil, and there is every evidence to suggest that those who are violent tend to be those who have been subjected to violence, or witnessed it in a normalising context.

So there's your butter knife. You live your life in the way you want the world to evolve, and imperceptibly move the dial on what we consider normal. Offer even a fleeting experience of kindness and rationality to children who aren't living in optimal circumstances. It increases their options for future behaviour. Their marginally improved behaviour contributes to your ripple effect.

Of course you can stop rape. You refrain, yourself. You discourage rapists and potential rapists, in the short term. You visualise and work towards the sort of society that is a bit more equal and a little less angry.

What you're saying aligns just fine with my previous post.

No. It doesn't. What you have done is to read my post with enough inattention to convince yourself that I agree with you, while ignoring what I actually said, and then reiterate your opposing position. You're entitled to your view. You are not entitled to tell me what I think, reversing my stated opinion. It wears thin after a while.

In this thread, and in almost every rape thread, I've questioned the assumption that rape is a *social* problem. Ultimately rape occurs for two reasons: 1) half of the human population is men, many unthinking, with hormones that are driving them to want sex at almost all times 2) this dynamic heavily reinforces what people call *rape culture*

So unless somehow we eliminate sex amongst our society (. . . ) or completely reverse the dynamic that our biology creates (. . . ), the mountain won't go away, which is the point I was making originally. I'm not trying to be negative about the situation, I'm redefining what I believe is actually the problem. So .. you can stop *a rape*, like you're saying, not *rape*.

Rape is not about sex. It is not sexually motivated with the possible exception of some statutory rape cases where the ages are not that far apart and maturity is basically on par. Maybe.

Rape is about power and control. Sex is just the means, not the end.


But yes, I think you have a point that we will probably never stop rape, just as we will never stop murder, stealing, assault, etc. But we can work to eliminate these evils. And we can start by stopping victim blaming and shaming.

 

[Metaphor]

With every new person born is a new potential assailant, so without some kind of fundamental change to global socialization, sexual violence is always going to be a problem.

That's why you can stop *a rape* from happening, but you can't stop *rape*.

Each new person born has the potential for both good and evil, and there is every evidence to suggest that those who are violent tend to be those who have been subjected to violence, or witnessed it in a normalising context.

So there's your butter knife. You live your life in the way you want the world to evolve, and imperceptibly move the dial on what we consider normal. Offer even a fleeting experience of kindness and rationality to children who aren't living in optimal circumstances. It increases their options for future behaviour. Their marginally improved behaviour contributes to your ripple effect.

Of course you can stop rape. You refrain, yourself. You discourage rapists and potential rapists, in the short term. You visualise and work towards the sort of society that is a bit more equal and a little less angry.

What you're saying aligns just fine with my previous post.

In this thread, and in almost every rape thread, I've questioned the assumption that rape is a *social* problem. Ultimately rape occurs for two reasons: 1) half of the human population is men, many unthinking, with hormones that are driving them to want sex at almost all times 2) this dynamic heavily reinforces what people call *rape culture*

So unless somehow we eliminate sex amongst our society (. . . ) or completely reverse the dynamic that our biology creates (. . . ), the mountain won't go away, which is the point I was making originally. I'm not trying to be negative about the situation, I'm redefining what I believe is actually the problem. So .. you can stop *a rape*, like you're saying, not *rape*.

Rape is not about sex. It is not sexually motivated with the possible exception of some statutory rape cases where the ages are not that far apart and maturity is basically on par. Maybe.

Rape is about power and control. Sex is just the means, not the end.


But yes, I think you have a point that we will probably never stop rape, just as we will never stop murder, stealing, assault, etc. But we can work to eliminate these evils. And we can start by stopping victim blaming and shaming.

OK, I hear the claim that rape is not about sex per se but about power and control all the time, but I've never heard any elaboration on that point. While I am willing to accept that there are many rapists that rape for reasons of power and control, and sex is merely the means to this end, I am very skeptical that this explains most rapes.

Here's a the abstract to an article on the subject I found after some brief googling:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3812897?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103808933561

The conclusion seems to be that there isn't any good evidence that the common claim that the majority or that most rapes are not motivated by sexual gratification is true.

It seems to me a patently absurd belief on the face of it.

If I steal someone's wallet, it is not about power and violence and domination (in general). It's "oh, you have something I want, you're not going to give it to me, I've got the opportunity to do it, so I'm just going to take it".

And while it's true that anyone can be raped, it's absurd to ignore the statistics about who is actually raped -- the most victimised group are women 18-24, which heterosexual men would find the prime age of sexual attractiveness for a woman. Adult males are also less likely to be raped than similar-aged adult females. The reason for this seems obvious to me: the most common demographic of a rapist is an adult heterosexual male, so the most common victim is going to be female, because heterosexual males are not sexually gratified by sex with men.

I simply don't know why the 'rape is about power' meme is so popular. Rape is not any less heinous a crime if it's about sexual gratification. If younger, attractive women are more likely to be raped than other groups, that does not mean that rape is any less heinous a crime. If a heterosexual man has more persistent sexual thoughts when with an attractive woman, that does not mean that rape is any less heinous a crime.

 

[angelo]

It still takes an a/h who thinks "How Dare This Woman Not Submit To My Needs." A creep who won't accept a simple "NO"!

 

[Unbeatable]

[The popularity of both religion and heliocentrism demonstrate that popularity is orthogonal to truth. The following post is not meant to address the question of whether "rape is about power" is actually true; it is meant only to address the question of its popularity.]

I simply don't know why the 'rape is about power' meme is so popular.

You mean popular among anti-rape activists, right? I mean, as far as I'm aware, "rape is about women dressing like sluts, drinking too much, hanging out in the wrong neighborhoods/with the wrong people, saying no when they mean yes, and/or consenting to sex and then lying about it later to keep from looking like sluts" seems to also be a popular meme, albeit not worded in that specific manner.

Rape is not any less heinous a crime if it's about sexual gratification. If younger, attractive women are more likely to be raped than other groups, that does not mean that rape is any less heinous a crime. If a heterosexual man has more persistent sexual thoughts when with an attractive woman, that does not mean that rape is any less heinous a crime.

But the other side has already claimed "rape is about sexual gratification" as one of their own memes, just like bigots have claimed "there are biologically-based psychological differences between the races" as one of theirs. The anti-rape side can't reclaim it without looking like they're ceding ground to the enemy.

 

[Rhea]

I simply don't know why the 'rape is about power' meme is so popular.

You mean popular among anti-rape activists, right? I mean, as far as I'm aware, "rape is about women dressing like sluts, drinking too much, hanging out in the wrong neighborhoods/with the wrong people, saying no when they mean yes, and/or consenting to sex and then lying about it later to keep from looking like sluts" seems to also be a popular meme, albeit not worded in that specific manner.

Rape is not any less heinous a crime if it's about sexual gratification. If younger, attractive women are more likely to be raped than other groups, that does not mean that rape is any less heinous a crime. If a heterosexual man has more persistent sexual thoughts when with an attractive woman, that does not mean that rape is any less heinous a crime.

But the other side has already claimed "rape is about sexual gratification" as one of their own memes, just like bigots have claimed "there are biologically-based psychological differences between the races" as one of theirs. The anti-rape side can't reclaim it without looking like they're ceding ground to the enemy.

This is a very thought provoking post.

I was about to agree that it's hard to see *most* rapes as being about power only when it seems that so many are committed not by the power-hungry, but by the sex-hungry-(and-simultaneously-power-entitled). That they aren't committing rape to get power, they are committing rape to get sex. NOT ALL, of course, there are still a lot of rapes about power. Those are the ones where the jealous husband or boyfriend is doing it to exert power over a woman who is trying to leave for example, or the ones like that SB shooter's agenda who are angry about not getting sex and want to take it out on women. But I don't think we can deny the whole group of people who rape with the purpose of getting sex and walk away from the victim without a second thought as to whether she has been properly cowed.


Both of those kinds of rape exist. And if we use the language "rape is not about sex, it is about power" then I think we might put our own advocacy at risk by allowing anyone who thinks they are doing it for sex to convince themselves they are not a rapist.

For those cases like the trolling college jerk looking for the most vulnerable woman so he can increase his chances of having sex that night, it really seems like it _is_ "about sex" and no less wrong for being about getting sex illegally.

Some people shoplift for the thrill. It's about shoplifting. Some people shoplift for food, it's about food. Both are illegal, both are punishable, but they are NOT both "about shoplifting" and we will not help the hungry people stop if we make all of our campaigns about "it's not a thrill, people!"


at the same time...

Unbeatable has a good point, a great point, that anyone who slut-shames turns it right back into a power play, and that has to be addressed and vociferously. So, how to not ever let that truth get minimized?


Maybe, "it's _about_ a crime." the rapist may be doing it to punish (purely for validation of power) or they may be doing it to get sex (because they feel it's acceptable to use power to get sex), but either way it's all about crime. Milk is not illegal. But if you steal it by threat, coercion or assault, your having that milk is a crime.

 

[Rhea]

I'm not the outgoing type of person and I tend to stay inside. I don't really have friends except people I talk to online. I'm introverted. What should I do about rape?

In my opinion, there are huge gains to be made by getting rape into topics of conversation so that the message can get out to all corners that most of society thinks people who get sex without permission are scumbags.

And example of this is the drunk driving campaigns. Talk everywhere. Bumperstickers, "A drunk killed my daughter." Public service ads. A real, public conversation about the damage and pain caused by this. And attitudes really changed. When I was a kid, drunk driving was not a very big deal. Cops let you go home and sleep it off when you got caught. Bartenders shook their heads at your stupidity when you left stumbling drunk and headed to your car. It never made the paper. Not any more! It is a public conversation, people condemn it publicly, we don't give a shit about the privacy of the drunk.

Rape does not get that conversation.
Rape victims do not get that protection.


What could a recluse do?

If you are online, you can open topics with articles about how rape kits go untested. leaving serial rapists to get away with it again and again. Write to your congresscritturs and post about how you are and you hope others will, too.

Increase awareness.

Be willing to join a thread/conversation that someone else starts and publicly support the idea that sex without consent is _horrible_. It will help reduce the number of people who can convince themselves it's okay to do, that no one will bother them if they do.

 

[Rhea]

Rape is about power and control. Sex is just the means, not the end.

I also have a hard time with this. I can see where many cases that appear to be about sex rely on power-grab to take place, but for very many of these cases, the rapist himself does think it is about an entitlement to sex. So to reach that group, we need to understand that TO THEM, Rape is about Sex. Power and control is just the means, not the end. And if we want to change THEM before they rape, we need to understand this about them.

 

[angelo]

Think that by understanding them we will change their attitudes?

 

[Rhea]

Yes. I think that in order to change ANYONE'S attitude you must understand what motivates them so that you can push the most productive buttons.

In other words, in order to change anyone, you must speak to them in their own language, or they will not understand you.


There is an entire industry built around this truth - Marketing.


edited to add: This is _exactly_ the strategy employed by many women in avoiding rape. "I have a boyfriend" is understanding them enough to get the message "I don't want you" into their head, since they do not understand "I don't want you." If we didn't understand them, we would not be able to get away from many situations.

 

[ksen]

[today sex is widely available]

Unless you're Elliot Rodgers then not so much.

 

[Metaphor]

You mean popular among anti-rape activists, right?

I'd say it's a bit more widespread than that. I know lots of people who believe rape is about power but I wouldn't call a single one of them an anti-rape activist.

I mean, as far as I'm aware, "rape is about women dressing like sluts, drinking too much, hanging out in the wrong neighborhoods/with the wrong people, saying no when they mean yes, and/or consenting to sex and then lying about it later to keep from looking like sluts" seems to also be a popular meme, albeit not worded in that specific manner.

Let's take the first one: "dressing like a slut". The kind of person I'm thinking of would say

"This is not about how a woman dresses. Rape is about power, not sex. What a woman wears is irrelevant".

My response would be:

"A woman has the moral right to walk naked down the street if she wants. If you think you're entitled to sex because she is naked and that made you horny, you're fucked in the head. You do not have the right to fuck someone without their permission."

But the other side has already claimed "rape is about sexual gratification" as one of their own memes,

But what's the other side, and why is it supposed to be obvious that rape is about power rather than sexual gratification? If you steal $1,000 because you want the money, is that about power, or is it about wanting the money?

But more importantly, what precisely has changed if someone claims that rape is about sexual gratification? Is it less heinous a crime? Is it okay to rape people if it's about sexual gratification? Of course it isn't.

just like bigots have claimed "there are biologically-based psychological differences between the races" as one of theirs. The anti-rape side can't reclaim it without looking like they're ceding ground to the enemy.

Conceding you are wrong about something is not an admission that your enemy is right about everything else.

I feel an analogue of this is the 'being gay is not a choice' meme. The LGBT movement has embraced this, but I find it a copout. The implication is that LGBT people can't help their moral failings, so give us a break. We need to be more radical about jolting people out of this kind of moral idiocy.

What if anyone could instantly choose to be gay or straight? Would it be immoral to choose to be gay? No, because the gender of your sexual partners has no moral valence, that's why. It doesn't matter if being gay is a choice or not, because it is not immoral to be gay. That's what needs to be understood and hammered home.

It doesn't matter if rape is about sex or power or pancakes. Rape is wrong.

 

[Metaphor]

Yes. I think that in order to change ANYONE'S attitude you must understand what motivates them so that you can push the most productive buttons.

In other words, in order to change anyone, you must speak to them in their own language, or they will not understand you.


There is an entire industry built around this truth - Marketing.


edited to add: This is _exactly_ the strategy employed by many women in avoiding rape. "I have a boyfriend" is understanding them enough to get the message "I don't want you" into their head, since they do not understand "I don't want you." If we didn't understand them, we would not be able to get away from many situations.

I look forward to a day, I hope, where fake boyfriends don't need to be invented. When a woman can say "I don't want to have sex with you, sorry", without having to 'explain' her reasons.

 

[Rhea]

It doesn't matter if being gay is a choice or not, because it is not immoral to be gay. That's what needs to be understood and hammered home.

It doesn't matter if rape is about sex or power or pancakes. Rape is wrong.

Well said.

I think this is helpful to make central, even among those who strongly believe sex is about power.

 

[bigfield]

Both of those kinds of rape exist. And if we use the language "rape is not about sex, it is about power" then I think we might put our own advocacy at risk by allowing anyone who thinks they are doing it for sex to convince themselves they are not a rapist.

You put your advocacy at risk by repeating a fallacy and therefore damaging your credibility.

There is no consensus about the motivation for rape; if anything there are likely many motivations.

 

[ksen]

I'm wondering if the "rape is about power" advocates feel uncomfortable saying rape is about sex because they feel that if they gave the latter any credence it would just ratchet up the slut-shaming and the "well, she shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt" talk from the other side.