What do you do about rape?

[Shadowy Man]

I think many other rapists would choose iii), and in that case I think for them rape was about sexual gratification, not dominance.

It's not clear to me that someone can have sex with an unwilling partner without dominance being part of the equation. You have to subvert someone else's will for your own pleasure. But maybe you are referring to the ultimate goal, i.e., that the rapist is seeking his own pleasure, even if it means dominating another, rather than the domination itself being the primary goal.

 

[Metaphor]

I think many other rapists would choose iii), and in that case I think for them rape was about sexual gratification, not dominance.

It's not clear to me that someone can have sex with an unwilling partner without dominance being part of the equation. You have to subvert someone else's will for your own pleasure. But maybe you are referring to the ultimate goal, i.e., that the rapist is seeking his own pleasure, even if it means dominating another, rather than the domination itself being the primary goal.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. "Dominance" is the tool, sex is the goal. In most 'date rape' situations, I imagine the goal to be about sex, not dominance.

If you're a serial killer or sadist, I imagine the cruelty and power exercise is more important than the sex. But most people are not sadists or serial killers.

 

[Toni]

So a man and his wife have a big fight: she burned the roast or was late coming home from work or spilt bleach on his favorite shirt. Whatever. She's angry because she knows he's just come from his girlfriend's place. Or whatever. The fighting escalates and there's some pushing and shoving. He gets angrier and angrier at his wife's disrespect. He rapes her. Why?

So a football player and his buddies go out for a night of drinking. They are Big Men On Campus and pretty much everybody knows who they are. Lots of girls are smiling and flirting and are eager to talk. The night wears on and One of the guys decides he wants a girl who is particularly drunk: slurring her words, stumbling. Not puking. Yet. So why does he pick her? Why does he force himself on her in an alley, even as she tries to protest? There are still a couple of girls who seemed pretty interested before hanging around. Why the drunk girl?

A nice looking guy who has a girlfriend goes out with some buddies. He starts to chat up some cute girl he knows from biology--or maybe she's not that cute but she's there and not paying a lot of attention to what's going on. He knows how to talk to women and she's relaxed enough that she leaves her drink on the bar while she turns to talk to a couple of friends. While she's distracted, he slips some roofies into her drink and under the guise of helping her hail a cab takes her to his place where he rapes her. Why? Why not go after some other girl who would be willing?

If it's just about sex, why not masterbate?

If it's just about sex, why not go to a prostitute?

If it's just about sex, why not just invest a tiny bit more time and energy and find someone willing?

 

[Toni]

Interesting thread. Still not sure how to put things into practice.

Let's take some real-life examples that have caused me some trouble:

1) E likes dancing in nightclubs. Each week she goes with her friends to the same nightclub, a place with a local reputation as a 'meat market' - i.e. full of people looking to meet others for romantic or sexual liaisons. She gets a steady stream of strangers trying to pick her up, which enrages her. Within an hour she is shaking, frustrated, and angry, literally shaking like a leaf, and at that point someone generally walks her home.

She asks for my advice as to what to do.

What do I say? The problem would go away if she wore extremely conservative clothing, but that's no fun to dance in, and not fair to her. The problem would go away if she didn't dance at that particular club, but there isn't another one (that had music she likes) and again, not fair on her. The problem would go away if people at the nightclub acted differently, but that's not really fair on them. The people approaching her aren't being particular obnoxious, or persistent, its just that there are a lot of them.


2) S is depressed that no one seems to want to go out with her. Taking a tip from both her upbringing and her romance novels she plays hard to get. Anyone who wants to date her will have to be persistent, trying to woo her despite her protests. Instead, everyone gives up after the first 'no'. She's at a loss as to how to chat to boys without either driving them off, or throwing herself at them, or having them assume she's not interested. She's not particularly socially apt.

The problem I'm hitting with these examples, is that the behaviours that people are complaining about such, as assuming someone is romantically/sexually available based on what they're wearing and where they are, or persisting in trying to pick someone up who has already told you they're not interested, are behaviours that some people are relying on for their romantic lives. Changing that behaviour is more than just raising awareness or haranguing people in public, it's also about providing alternatives to people who are behaving that way, or encouraging others to behave in that way, for what to them are clear and compelling reasons.

#1 can learn to deflect men's advances, ideally without having to be bitchy and therefore ruining her own mood.

#2 is an example of someone who needs relationship advice.

Plus I would suggest that you are naive if you think that dressing less provocatively would help. It never helped me and it never helped my daughter who spent a year or so only wearing disgusting baggy sweats and huge clunky snow boots she borrowed from her brother, a disreputable ill fitting jacket and a hideous unisex hat whenever she went out. It never slowed anyone down. She quit going out. She's very socially adept and has had successful relationships. Is in one now. She was raised with brothers so she's not exactly shy about telling someone to fuck off. But it wears a person down. She only goes out in groups and almost always in a mixed gender group.

 

[RavenSky]

Do you folks think prostitution helps or harms this dynamic? On the one hand it objectifies. On the other it provides an outlet for sexual urges that may otherwise bottle up and explode (no pun intended)

I have not worked through prostitution enough to have a firm belief. My first response is that prostitution in general is not a bad thing, as long as the exploitation can be eliminated. Can it? Possibly by legalization?

Agree with Rhea, but also question whether even legalized prostitution would positively affect the "sex culture" and "rape culture" she was previously talking about.

To use the most horrible recent example of the California mass murder, I don't think going to a prostitute would have alleviated that man's hatred towards women (& the men he perceived as sexually successful). If anything, it would have reinforced his pathology because he was having to pay for it.

 

[RavenSky]

If a guy thinks that him getting laid is more important than a woman's preferences, I can't argue against that, as it's not a truth-apt statement. I can only argue against his rationalizations.

I would think this absolutely is a "truth-apt" since disregarding a woman's preference not to have sex is called "rape" and it is illegal, immoral and all kinds of horrific.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

If it's just about sex, why not masterbate?

Because masturbation doesn't give the same sensations as sex.

If it's just about sex, why not just invest a tiny bit more time and energy and find someone willing?

Because some people are desperate.

Also I'm pretty sure people aren't saying that rape cannot be about power/control, just that it doesn't explain all rape. I haven't been following since my last post though.

 

[bigfield]

Plus I would suggest that you are naive if you think that dressing less provocatively would help.

Luckily I don't think that, then.

It never helped me and it never helped my daughter who spent a year or so only wearing disgusting baggy sweats and huge clunky snow boots she borrowed from her brother, a disreputable ill fitting jacket and a hideous unisex hat whenever she went out. It never slowed anyone down.

It's due to blissful ignorance. In the club scene, many men seem to approach women regardless of the signals those women are putting out, because it is easier for them to hit on many women in quick succession than it is to try and figure out if a particular woman is out on the pull. Men have nothing to lose from this machine-gun approach, and it works, because despite all of the women they annoy, they often find one who is interested.

She quit going out. She's very socially adept and has had successful relationships. Is in one now. She was raised with brothers so she's not exactly shy about telling someone to fuck off. But it wears a person down. She only goes out in groups and almost always in a mixed gender group.

That sucks. I find some of the "creeping" behaviour that goes down in clubs and bars to be disgraceful, but the meat markets still manage to attract a large clientèle who tolerate it.

 

[Toni]

I think many other rapists would choose iii), and in that case I think for them rape was about sexual gratification, not dominance.

It's not clear to me that someone can have sex with an unwilling partner without dominance being part of the equation. You have to subvert someone else's will for your own pleasure. But maybe you are referring to the ultimate goal, i.e., that the rapist is seeking his own pleasure, even if it means dominating another, rather than the domination itself being the primary goal.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. "Dominance" is the tool, sex is the goal. In most 'date rape' situations, I imagine the goal to be about sex, not dominance.

If you're a serial killer or sadist, I imagine the cruelty and power exercise is more important than the sex. But most people are not sadists or serial killers.

I would say the opposite: Dominance is the goal and sex is the tool.

Why? Because I saw the look in the eyes of each of the two different guys who tried to rape me.

Neither was unattractive--one was quite handsome, in fact. During that attack, he also was in a particular rage that my friend--who was dating his friend at the time--had turned him down, ungrateful bitch that she was. Actually, she had told me that he tried to push himself on her when her boyfriend was out of town so I was forewarned and on my guard, which explains why I was able to keep him off of me. And also because of the proximity of other people who came to see what was happening.

The other guy--when he attacked me--and it happened more than once since he was part of my extended family and I wasn't able to avoid him completely---he had the same look in his eyes when he grabbed my crotch and told me he was going to fuck me as the time he tried to kill me by pushing me off a ledge. Both apropos of absolutely nothing. Since then, he has been married and divorced twice. Unsurprisingly, his marriages ended when his wives got tired of putting up with his abuse. The second one had daughters from her first marriage. My understanding is that he went after his adolescent step daughters. Unfortunately, the mom wouldn't get the police involved.

The room full of guys waiting to take a turn at my drunk friend? One of the guys in that group was very openly, very vocally gay. He was third or fourth in the line.

I doubt that all rapes are because of rage, desire for power and dominance. But I think some combination of those drives a lot more sexual assault than we care to admit. Sex is pretty easily available to most people who seek it out. Even guys who are not traditionally handsome. Or good with words or people.

 

[angelo]

Does "it's a fine line" mean that one thing can actually become another thing? I thought it just meant that the difference was small.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not a necessarily true statement that someone who thinks they are 'entitled' to sex will also be one who can enjoy that sex with an unwilling partner. I think it is much more likely that those who can enjoy it that way are also those who think they are entitled to it.

The ultimate selfish, self importance and no one else matters thinking man which unfortunately there are no shortages of.

 

[Unbeatable]

If a guy thinks that him getting laid is more important than a woman's preferences, I can't argue against that, as it's not a truth-apt statement. I can only argue against his rationalizations.

I would think this absolutely is a "truth-apt" since disregarding a woman's preference not to have sex is called "rape" and it is illegal, immoral and all kinds of horrific.

This appears to be a non-sequitur. It's true that the action in question is called rape, and that rape is illegal. It's true that rape violates various people's notions of moral law and causes various people to feel horrified. But none of these facts are relevant to the question of whether a guy thinking that him getting laid is more important than a woman's preference is truth apt.

A truth-apt statement expresses a proposition which is capable of being either true or false. One could in principle refute such a statement using logic and evidence. If a guy thinks that him getting laid is more important than a woman's preferences, that's not even a statement. It's just a value judgment. It's just the way he apparently feels. There's nothing there for me to refute. On the other hand, should he seek to rationalize his judgment, chances are he'll use truth-apt statements derived from the male sexual entitlement meme complex, and I can refute those.

 

[J842P]

I doubt that all rapes are because of rage, desire for power and dominance. But I think some combination of those drives a lot more sexual assault than we care to admit. Sex is pretty easily available to most people who seek it out. Even guys who are not traditionally handsome. Or good with words or people.

Well, I don't think anyone has argued against the claim that many rapes are probably about expressing power/dominance. I don't find that hard to believe. What I have claimed to be skeptical about is the implication that only a negligible portion of rapes are about getting sex. You say that sex is pretty easily available to most people. Perhaps "most people" is technically true in the strict sense of "more than not." However, that still leaves many people who do not have "easy" access to sex. Most of the guys I know that aren't in a relationship don't have easy access to sex.

 

[angelo]

I doubt that all rapes are because of rage, desire for power and dominance. But I think some combination of those drives a lot more sexual assault than we care to admit. Sex is pretty easily available to most people who seek it out. Even guys who are not traditionally handsome. Or good with words or people.

Well, I don't think anyone has argued against the claim that many rapes are probably about expressing power/dominance. I don't find that hard to believe. What I have claimed to be skeptical about is the implication that only a negligible portion of rapes are about getting sex. You say that sex is pretty easily available to most people. Perhaps "most people" is technically true in the strict sense of "more than not." However, that still leaves many people who do not have "easy" access to sex. Most of the guys I know that aren't in a relationship don't have easy access to sex.

No access as right now? Even in a relationship I doubt a guy can have instant gratification on demand. But otherwise sex is widely available, even though sometimes needs a little patience and time.

 

[Toni]

I doubt that all rapes are because of rage, desire for power and dominance. But I think some combination of those drives a lot more sexual assault than we care to admit. Sex is pretty easily available to most people who seek it out. Even guys who are not traditionally handsome. Or good with words or people.

Well, I don't think anyone has argued against the claim that many rapes are probably about expressing power/dominance. I don't find that hard to believe. What I have claimed to be skeptical about is the implication that only a negligible portion of rapes are about getting sex. You say that sex is pretty easily available to most people. Perhaps "most people" is technically true in the strict sense of "more than not." However, that still leaves many people who do not have "easy" access to sex. Most of the guys I know that aren't in a relationship don't have easy access to sex.

Rape does require effort and access. I do not believe that people rape out of sexual frustration or limited access to sex. The only real exception that I can think of is some cases of statutory rape, perhaps.

 

[dx713]

Yes, but not the same kind of effort/opportunity.
It's easier for a shy and needy and drunk "kid" to rape another drunk "kid" than for them to suddenly find the ressource to become an adult about seeking a date while their already inexistent-and-made-to-look-even-worse-by-neediness social skills are hampered by alcohol. Believe a former 25 yo virgin on that score.
No, I never raped anybody, I might have had a lot of flaws but I've always been a nice guy, and had a good education by a feminist mother, but I can understand how sexual frustration can be a primary driver for some less-than-nice guys.

Back to the OP: what do I do for rape? Currently nothing, except not raping and looking with disgust at sexist talk (fortunately, I work in a place with >30%women, a rarity in my field, so it doesn't come up often). But I intend to fully educate my kids about consent as soon as they are out of the "sex? Ewww" phase. (and maybe even before, so they're ready when their older friends are, although I suppose this will be awkward. But I'm ready to soldier through it)

 

[angelo]

I can't even imagine having sex with an unwilling partner, I just wouldn't do it. Gawd when I think back now with hindsight at all the opportunities I had that I knocked back because of my shyness, I could literately sit down and cry.

 

[dx713]

I can't even imagine having sex with an unwilling partner, I just wouldn't do it.

Yes, that too. A big part of the attraction of sex for me was in the interaction, no way I was going to be interested in an unwilling partner, or even in a willing but uninteresting or unfriendly person as a partner.
But I also remember the pain and the loneliness, which is why I don't discount frustration as a driver for some seedier persons.

 

[Jokodo]

I doubt that all rapes are because of rage, desire for power and dominance. But I think some combination of those drives a lot more sexual assault than we care to admit. Sex is pretty easily available to most people who seek it out. Even guys who are not traditionally handsome. Or good with words or people.

Well, I don't think anyone has argued against the claim that many rapes are probably about expressing power/dominance. I don't find that hard to believe. What I have claimed to be skeptical about is the implication that only a negligible portion of rapes are about getting sex. You say that sex is pretty easily available to most people. Perhaps "most people" is technically true in the strict sense of "more than not." However, that still leaves many people who do not have "easy" access to sex. Most of the guys I know that aren't in a relationship don't have easy access to sex.

Yes, they do. If nothing else, they can go to a prostitute. I know it's technically illegal where you live (assuming Georgia, is that right?), but sure you are not going to argue that the opportunity cost of rape (is lower than the opportunity cost of going to a prostitute.

 

[Jokodo]

Yes, but not the same kind of effort/opportunity.
It's easier for a shy and needy and drunk "kid" to rape another drunk "kid" than for them to suddenly find the ressource to become an adult about seeking a date while their already inexistent-and-made-to-look-even-worse-by-neediness social skills are hampered by alcohol.<snip>

Is it easier than going to prostitute, though?

 

[angelo]

I doubt that all rapes are because of rage, desire for power and dominance. But I think some combination of those drives a lot more sexual assault than we care to admit. Sex is pretty easily available to most people who seek it out. Even guys who are not traditionally handsome. Or good with words or people.

Well, I don't think anyone has argued against the claim that many rapes are probably about expressing power/dominance. I don't find that hard to believe. What I have claimed to be skeptical about is the implication that only a negligible portion of rapes are about getting sex. You say that sex is pretty easily available to most people. Perhaps "most people" is technically true in the strict sense of "more than not." However, that still leaves many people who do not have "easy" access to sex. Most of the guys I know that aren't in a relationship don't have easy access to sex.

Yes, they do. If nothing else, they can go to a prostitute. I know it's technically illegal where you live (assuming Georgia, is that right?), but sure you are not going to argue that the opportunity cost of rape (is lower than the opportunity cost of going to a prostitute.

I never liked going with a prostitute because in my mind I know she's only doing it for the money, she's no way enjoying it and if one thinks they are then they're naive.