What do you want to do with the little people?

[Rhea]

Yes. That's Trausti's position. All traits are heritable, they do not fall from the sky. I take the radical view that children inherit traits from their parents; that evolution and natural selection and assortative mating are very good explanations for why humans act as they do. The blank slate is bullshit. I'm a heretic. Set me alight.

Okay, people inherit all traits from parents, there is no generational inheritance of advantage.
I stipulate this for the sake of discussion.

What do you envision society does with the people who work hard and show up a work every day, and cannot survive on minimum wage, and due to genetics are not able to get non-minimum wage jobs?

 

[Trausti]

Yes. That's Trausti's position. All traits are heritable, they do not fall from the sky. I take the radical view that children inherit traits from their parents; that evolution and natural selection and assortative mating are very good explanations for why humans act as they do. The blank slate is bullshit. I'm a heretic. Set me alight.

Okay, people inherit all traits from parents, there is no generational inheritance of advantage.
I stipulate this for the sake of discussion.

What do you envision society does with the people who work hard and show up a work every day, and cannot survive on minimum wage, and due to genetics are not able to get non-minimum wage jobs?

The first thing would be to limit the flow of low-skilled immigration so that the wages of our fellow citizens are not undercut.

 

[bilby]

Yes. That's Trausti's position. All traits are heritable, they do not fall from the sky. I take the radical view that children inherit traits from their parents; that evolution and natural selection and assortative mating are very good explanations for why humans act as they do. The blank slate is bullshit. I'm a heretic. Set me alight.

Okay, people inherit all traits from parents, there is no generational inheritance of advantage.
I stipulate this for the sake of discussion.

What do you envision society does with the people who work hard and show up a work every day, and cannot survive on minimum wage, and due to genetics are not able to get non-minimum wage jobs?

The first thing would be to limit the flow of low-skilled immigration so that the wages of our fellow citizens are not undercut.

Why are low skilled Americans you have never met or interacted with, more important to you than low skilled foreigners who want to come to America?

They're all strangers. They all want to work. The only differences seem to be that the foreigners didn't use any American funding or infrastructure to support their childhoods and educations; And that the foreigners have enough gumption to get off their arses and travel to a foreign country in order to better their position, while the Americans do not.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that American citizenship doesn't make somebody a superior human being, why would you restrict migration to America by people from other countries, while nor restricting migration to California or New York by people from other states in the US?

Migration of workers seems to me to be a universally good thing to permit, at every scale. Would you support the introduction of border controls between US states, or even between US cities, to prevent low skilled workers from moving to places with more work or better pay?

If not, what makes a city limit or a state border less important than an international border?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes. That's Trausti's position. All traits are heritable, they do not fall from the sky. I take the radical view that children inherit traits from their parents; that evolution and natural selection and assortative mating are very good explanations for why humans act as they do. The blank slate is bullshit. I'm a heretic. Set me alight.

Okay, people inherit all traits from parents, there is no generational inheritance of advantage.
I stipulate this for the sake of discussion.

What do you envision society does with the people who work hard and show up a work every day, and cannot survive on minimum wage, and due to genetics are not able to get non-minimum wage jobs?

I don't know what his answer is. I think there's enough of a cultural component that the group you describe doesn't exist.

 

[Trausti]

Yes. That's Trausti's position. All traits are heritable, they do not fall from the sky. I take the radical view that children inherit traits from their parents; that evolution and natural selection and assortative mating are very good explanations for why humans act as they do. The blank slate is bullshit. I'm a heretic. Set me alight.

Okay, people inherit all traits from parents, there is no generational inheritance of advantage.
I stipulate this for the sake of discussion.

What do you envision society does with the people who work hard and show up a work every day, and cannot survive on minimum wage, and due to genetics are not able to get non-minimum wage jobs?

I don't know what his answer is. I think there's enough of a cultural component that the group you describe doesn't exist.

Right. If you have high contentiousness and work ethic, there’s no reason you’d be limited to minimum wage.

 

[RVonse]

The first thing would be to limit the flow of low-skilled immigration so that the wages of our fellow citizens are not undercut.

Why are low skilled Americans you have never met or interacted with, more important to you than low skilled foreigners who want to come to America?

The low skilled Americans know how to speak English. That makes them less burdensome to rest of the population who do currently speak English.

They're all strangers. They all want to work. The only differences seem to be that the foreigners didn't use any American funding or infrastructure to support their childhoods and educations; And that the foreigners have enough gumption to get off their arses and travel to a foreign country in order to better their position, while the Americans do not.

But they still do have enough gumption to get off their arses to speak English. Because if they did speak English (which is supposed to be the language of the US) you would not see any bi-lingual signs or telephone robots.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that American citizenship doesn't make somebody a superior human being,...

Just the simple act of speaking and understanding English makes them vastly superior to the rest of the population.

Migration of workers seems to me to be a universally good thing to permit, at every scale.

It only makes sense when a skill is needed that no one else has. And that is certainly NOT the case with most of the poor in this country because most of them have few skills.

Would you support the introduction of border controls between US states, or even between US cities, to prevent low skilled workers from moving to places with more work or better pay?

I would if they did not have enough communicating skills to integrate with the rest of the population.

If not, what makes a city limit or a state border less important than an international border?

A New Yorker might have a different accent then a Texan but the language is still English and they can effectively communicate with each other. Therefore it is no big deal or change for such persons to cross state borders and integrate with each other

 

[bilby]

The low skilled Americans know how to speak English. That makes them less burdensome to rest of the population who do currently speak English.

They're all strangers. They all want to work. The only differences seem to be that the foreigners didn't use any American funding or infrastructure to support their childhoods and educations; And that the foreigners have enough gumption to get off their arses and travel to a foreign country in order to better their position, while the Americans do not.

But they still do have enough gumption to get off their arses to speak English. Because if they did speak English (which is supposed to be the language of the US) you would not see any bi-lingual signs or telephone robots.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that American citizenship doesn't make somebody a superior human being,...

Just the simple act of speaking and understanding English makes them vastly superior to the rest of the population.

Migration of workers seems to me to be a universally good thing to permit, at every scale.

It only makes sense when a skill is needed that no one else has. And that is certainly NOT the case with most of the poor in this country because most of them have few skills.

Would you support the introduction of border controls between US states, or even between US cities, to prevent low skilled workers from moving to places with more work or better pay?

I would if they did not have enough communicating skills to integrate with the rest of the population.

If not, what makes a city limit or a state border less important than an international border?

A New Yorker might have a different accent then a Texan but the language is still English and they can effectively communicate with each other. Therefore it is no big deal or change for such persons to cross state borders and integrate with each other

If your problem is with people who don't speak English, you should fucking say so. If you talk about immigrants as a problem, while in fact only having a problem with the subset of immigrants whose English is poor, then you run the serious risk of people assuming that you are just a fucking racist cunt scrambling for a justification for your xenophobia.

If, on the other hand, English fluency is the only hurdle at the US border, it's fairly straightforward to put together a test for potential migrants, and hand out green cards to all who pass the test. That would doubtless have the effect of inspiring lots of foreign people to learn English.

It's probably also worth noting that the USA doesn't have an official language, and that requiring English fluency would be a radical change in national policy for your country. Spanish is very widely spoken in the US, as are German and French. And of course there are a number of indigenous languages that pre-date European settlement. Insisting that Americans must speak English is probably itself racist, and certainly very stupid, both from a practical and an historical perspective.

 

[Politesse]

It's probably also worth noting that the USA doesn't have an official language, and that requiring English fluency would be a radical change in national policy for your country. Spanish is very widely spoken in the US, as are German and French. And of course there are a number of indigenous languages that pre-date European settlement. Insisting that Americans must speak English is probably itself racist, and certainly very stupid, both from a practical and an historical perspective.

Despite at least 38 attempts over the centuries to make English an official language. It always dies in the Congress; ultimately, no one wants to offend vast swathes of their own constituents just to enshrine in law a situation of language supremacy that already exists in practice. All Americans have an immediate and obvious reason to need to master English, and those young enough to try, do. The idea that English is somehow threatened by Spanish, Dutch, Creole French, Navajo or Cherokee is so laughably opposite to the truth as to be barely worth considering.

 

[Jayjay]

The fact that we need to even have this discussion is fucking depressing.

We need a minimum wage, indexed in such a way that we don't have to have this battle every time we want people to not have to suffer (I say we index it to congress' pay).

AND we need UBI. UBI should be indexed in such a way as to always be equal to minimum wage.

Taxes would start at 2.5X UBI, and be a exponential formula that caps out at ~95% around $2 million.

If you have UBI you don't need a minimum wage.

 

[Rhea]

I don't know what his answer is. I think there's enough of a cultural component that the group you describe doesn't exist.

Right. If you have high contentiousness and work ethic, there’s no reason you’d be limited to minimum wage.

You are saying that everyone who works hard can make above minumum wage? Everyone? Doing what?

This includes people of low intelligence?
This includes people with behavioral conditions that prevent them with competing with those who don’t?
This includes people who cannot move because of a caregiving role?
This includes people with no training.

I see millions of people who do indeed exist in this category.

Then there is the contradictory, “no one is limited to minimum wage” side by side with, “we cannot raise the minimum wage” and “immigrants are depressing the wage,” sise by side with “those jobs aren’t needed.”


So I think you both said pretty clearly that people who cannot make ends meet on minimum wage are just lazy. That all they need is to be conscientious and have a work ethic.

So then why are they working minimum wage?. People who work two and three jobs obviously have a work ethic. They keep all three jobs and are obviously conscientious. So if all they need is that conscientiousness an work ethic, why are they still earning minimum wage at all? What’s wrong?

And if they all quit and instantly get the better jobs that they deserve - who does the most menia jobs of all? Do we just have no more housekeeps in hotels? They all disappear? McDonald’s closes?


I don’t follow your claims here. They don’t match reality. ALL of those people are lazy assholes? ALL of them? Including all of the lazy immigrants who are stealing all the minimum wage jobs?

It doesn;t compute.
There are millions of minimum wage jobs. Are they all unneeded?
There are millions of people working 40+ hours per week in those jobs, do they all have no work ethic?

Neither of you is making any sense.

 

[Trausti]

The first thing would be to limit the flow of low-skilled immigration so that the wages of our fellow citizens are not undercut.

Why are low skilled Americans you have never met or interacted with, more important to you than low skilled foreigners who want to come to America?

Because they're Americans. It is truly a bizarre happenstance that the loyalties of Western nations leapfrog over their own people to foreigners while the loyalties of those foreigners remain concentric.

Whose Job Is It Anyway? Co-Ethnic Hiring in New U.S. Ventures

 

[fromderinside]

Because they're Americans. It is truly a bizarre happenstance that the loyalties of Western nations leapfrog over their own people to foreigners while the loyalties of those foreigners remain concentric.

Whose Job Is It Anyway? Co-Ethnic Hiring in New U.S. Ventures

What's this loyalties thing. China serves as an example of how presumed over populated societies can survive. The US nor Europe are no where near such levels. Ergo there are plenty of people to go around for all the work that becomes available anywhere. So when lots of jobs appear, say now that 'merica is hyping it's economy and preparing to serve it's infrastructure needs, 'merican business should be hiring everywhere they can since there is a surplus of workers worldwide, given poverty reports.

Don't want hyperinflation do we? Our problem isn't of of labor it's one of distribution of wealth.

What happened to rise all boats?

 

[Trausti]

Because they're Americans. It is truly a bizarre happenstance that the loyalties of Western nations leapfrog over their own people to foreigners while the loyalties of those foreigners remain concentric.

Whose Job Is It Anyway? Co-Ethnic Hiring in New U.S. Ventures

What's this loyalties thing. China serves as an example of how presumed over populated societies can survive. The US nor Europe are no where near such levels. Ergo there are plenty of people to go around for all the work that becomes available anywhere. So when lots of jobs appear, say now that 'merica is hyping it's economy and preparing to serve it's infrastructure needs, 'merican business should be hiring everywhere they can since there is a surplus of workers worldwide, given poverty reports.

Don't want hyperinflation do we? Our problem isn't of of labor it's one of distribution of wealth.

What happened to rise all boats?

Why is it so terrible that American policy champion the American people over foreigners. What other countries have such disdain and disgust for their own?

 

[bilby]

The first thing would be to limit the flow of low-skilled immigration so that the wages of our fellow citizens are not undercut.

Why are low skilled Americans you have never met or interacted with, more important to you than low skilled foreigners who want to come to America?

Because they're Americans. It is truly a bizarre happenstance that the loyalties of Western nations leapfrog over their own people to foreigners while the loyalties of those foreigners remain concentric.

Whose Job Is It Anyway? Co-Ethnic Hiring in New U.S. Ventures

Loyalty is a vice, and a very stupid one at that.

If someone deserves your respect, assistance, friendship, support, or care, then loyalty isn't relevant because they should get those things regardless. If they don't, then it's a mistake, because you're giving people something they don't deserve.

Sharing a citizenship with someone is utterly meaningless in terms of your relationship with them. If they're arseholes, then they don't deserve your fellow feelings. And if they aren't, then they do. And if you don't know, you don't know.

And if a group of people are doing something stupid, I am not going to rush to emulate them. Other nationals excluding me or my compatriots from their business or social circles are needlessly reducing the probability of finding the best possible people. Why would I copy their idiocy?

Loyalty, patriotism, and faith are all vices. They all exchange a reasoned decision about who to respect and who to despise with a set of rules that completely fail to take account of what the people are like, how they act, and whether they reciprocate kindness.

Americans are no more worthy of my automatic preference than Australians, Englishmen, Brazilians, or Chinamen.

I don't care if we share a passport; I care if we share ideals and moral values. And patriotism is completely foreign to me.

 

[RVonse]

I don't care if we share a passport; I care if we share ideals and moral values. And patriotism is completely foreign to me.

But like Trausti says, who else treats their citizens worse then the US? I can't think of any. Furthermore, if all the countries in the world thought like you did, there would be no need for any military. If you think that will ever happen your mind is in the clouds.

 

[RVonse]

I don't know what his answer is. I think there's enough of a cultural component that the group you describe doesn't exist.

Right. If you have high contentiousness and work ethic, there’s no reason you’d be limited to minimum wage.

You are saying that everyone who works hard can make above minumum wage? Everyone? Doing what?

This includes people of low intelligence?
This includes people with behavioral conditions that prevent them with competing with those who don’t?
This includes people who cannot move because of a caregiving role?
This includes people with no training.

I see millions of people who do indeed exist in this category.

Then there is the contradictory, “no one is limited to minimum wage” side by side with, “we cannot raise the minimum wage” and “immigrants are depressing the wage,” sise by side with “those jobs aren’t needed.”


So I think you both said pretty clearly that people who cannot make ends meet on minimum wage are just lazy. That all they need is to be conscientious and have a work ethic.

So then why are they working minimum wage?. People who work two and three jobs obviously have a work ethic. They keep all three jobs and are obviously conscientious. So if all they need is that conscientiousness an work ethic, why are they still earning minimum wage at all? What’s wrong?

And if they all quit and instantly get the better jobs that they deserve - who does the most menia jobs of all? Do we just have no more housekeeps in hotels? They all disappear? McDonald’s closes?


I don’t follow your claims here. They don’t match reality. ALL of those people are lazy assholes? ALL of them? Including all of the lazy immigrants who are stealing all the minimum wage jobs?

It doesn;t compute.
There are millions of minimum wage jobs. Are they all unneeded?
There are millions of people working 40+ hours per week in those jobs, do they all have no work ethic?

Neither of you is making any sense.

Those are excellent points that you make. I'm kind of in the Loren/Truasti camp myself ...but damn if I can answer any of your questions! I don't know.

I still believe capitalism is the best system there is. But this is definitely where it is weak serving all individuals.

 

[Trausti]

Because they're Americans. It is truly a bizarre happenstance that the loyalties of Western nations leapfrog over their own people to foreigners while the loyalties of those foreigners remain concentric.

Whose Job Is It Anyway? Co-Ethnic Hiring in New U.S. Ventures

Loyalty is a vice, and a very stupid one at that.

If someone deserves your respect, assistance, friendship, support, or care, then loyalty isn't relevant because they should get those things regardless. If they don't, then it's a mistake, because you're giving people something they don't deserve.

Sharing a citizenship with someone is utterly meaningless in terms of your relationship with them. If they're arseholes, then they don't deserve your fellow feelings. And if they aren't, then they do. And if you don't know, you don't know.

And if a group of people are doing something stupid, I am not going to rush to emulate them. Other nationals excluding me or my compatriots from their business or social circles are needlessly reducing the probability of finding the best possible people. Why would I copy their idiocy?

Loyalty, patriotism, and faith are all vices. They all exchange a reasoned decision about who to respect and who to despise with a set of rules that completely fail to take account of what the people are like, how they act, and whether they reciprocate kindness.

Americans are no more worthy of my automatic preference than Australians, Englishmen, Brazilians, or Chinamen.

I don't care if we share a passport; I care if we share ideals and moral values. And patriotism is completely foreign to me.

You write like someone who’s job is not threatened by migration of those who’d do your job for less.

 

[RVonse]

If your problem is with people who don't speak English, you should fucking say so. If you talk about immigrants as a problem, while in fact only having a problem with the subset of immigrants whose English is poor, then you run the serious risk of people assuming that you are just a fucking racist cunt scrambling for a justification for your xenophobia.

If, on the other hand, English fluency is the only hurdle at the US border, it's fairly straightforward to put together a test for potential migrants, and hand out green cards to all who pass the test. That would doubtless have the effect of inspiring lots of foreign people to learn English.

It's probably also worth noting that the USA doesn't have an official language, and that requiring English fluency would be a radical change in national policy for your country. Spanish is very widely spoken in the US, as are German and French. And of course there are a number of indigenous languages that pre-date European settlement. Insisting that Americans must speak English is probably itself racist, and certainly very stupid, both from a practical and an historical perspective.

Wait a minute. I did not say English was better than other languages nor did I say that Americans are better. I said that people who come here and can not communicate are a problem for our population and society. And they are.

And yes they should learn English (or whatever most of us speak) if they want to come here. But since they don't even want to come here legally that is the last thing on their mind.

 

[Trausti]

Because they're Americans. It is truly a bizarre happenstance that the loyalties of Western nations leapfrog over their own people to foreigners while the loyalties of those foreigners remain concentric.

Whose Job Is It Anyway? Co-Ethnic Hiring in New U.S. Ventures

What's this loyalties thing. China serves as an example of how presumed over populated societies can survive. The US nor Europe are no where near such levels. Ergo there are plenty of people to go around for all the work that becomes available anywhere. So when lots of jobs appear, say now that 'merica is hyping it's economy and preparing to serve it's infrastructure needs, 'merican business should be hiring everywhere they can since there is a surplus of workers worldwide, given poverty reports.

Don't want hyperinflation do we? Our problem isn't of of labor it's one of distribution of wealth.

What happened to rise all boats?

.

If you support mass migration so that companies -including tech companies - can pay less for foreigners than they’d have to pay Americans, then you really don’t care about raising all boats.

 

[Trausti]

I don't know what his answer is. I think there's enough of a cultural component that the group you describe doesn't exist.

Right. If you have high contentiousness and work ethic, there’s no reason you’d be limited to minimum wage.

You are saying that everyone who works hard can make above minumum wage? Everyone? Doing what?

This includes people of low intelligence?
This includes people with behavioral conditions that prevent them with competing with those who don’t?
This includes people who cannot move because of a caregiving role?
This includes people with no training.

I see millions of people who do indeed exist in this category.

Then there is the contradictory, “no one is limited to minimum wage” side by side with, “we cannot raise the minimum wage” and “immigrants are depressing the wage,” sise by side with “those jobs aren’t needed.”


So I think you both said pretty clearly that people who cannot make ends meet on minimum wage are just lazy. That all they need is to be conscientious and have a work ethic.

So then why are they working minimum wage?. People who work two and three jobs obviously have a work ethic. They keep all three jobs and are obviously conscientious. So if all they need is that conscientiousness an work ethic, why are they still earning minimum wage at all? What’s wrong?

And if they all quit and instantly get the better jobs that they deserve - who does the most menia jobs of all? Do we just have no more housekeeps in hotels? They all disappear? McDonald’s closes?


I don’t follow your claims here. They don’t match reality. ALL of those people are lazy assholes? ALL of them? Including all of the lazy immigrants who are stealing all the minimum wage jobs?

It doesn;t compute.
There are millions of minimum wage jobs. Are they all unneeded?
There are millions of people working 40+ hours per week in those jobs, do they all have no work ethic?

Neither of you is making any sense.

If you make no effort to improve your situation, it matters not that you clock in and out.