What if Trayvon Martin Open Carried?

[AthenaAwakened]

You do realize the topic of the OP was about blacks open carrying weapons (please remember the person brought was considered a dangerous threat without ever having a weapon) and you swerve to talk about black panthers and shit. That is a derail. Granted, you didn't decide to swerve more about a woman who got away with murder with a gun, so you could be given a little credit, but not much.

Athena mentioned a particular black man who was open carrying weapons who got gunned down by other black men who may or may not have been open carrying. You don't find that detail of his life relevant? And remember, it was Athena, not I, who chose to include Huey Newton.

I mentioned a black man who carried a gun, scared white, and gave Ronald Reagan political fuel to use in his political career. That fuel led to gun control. Laws being passed in CA.

That is relevant, that is on point with wondering what would have happened had this black male had a gun. It is quite logical to draw comparison with past behavior.

You skip all that to go off on a tirade about Huey Newton's death, as if his death was a direct result of him walking down a street In Oakland with a 12 gage.

this foolishness that has followed your diatribe ...


That is all on you.

 

[Derec]

I mentioned a black man who carried a gun, scared white, and gave Ronald Reagan political fuel to use in his political career. That fuel led to gun control. Laws being passed in CA.

For good reason. His group didn't just "open carry" but engaged in bank robberies, murders, attacks on prisons. Huey Newton was murdered himself, not by any "scared white" people but by his fellow thugs.

That is relevant, that is on point with wondering what would have happened had this black male had a gun. It is quite logical to draw comparison with past behavior.

Yet you have omitted very relevant parts of the story.

You skip all that to go off on a tirade about Huey Newton's death, as if his death was a direct result of him walking down a street In Oakland with a 12 gage.

They are certainly related. And btw, it's "gauge".

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And this is why we should have gun control?

 

[Underseer]

I see a lot of advocacy of self-defense and open carry from corners of the internets. For example, recently a teen was stopped in Aurora, Co while advocating open carry by walking with his shotgun.

http://kdvr.com/2014/08/01/aurora-t...th-shotgun-videotapes-encounters-with-police/

My thought experiment is what if this teen was say Trayvon Martin back* in his neighborhood in Florida, or an Any St., U.S.A. Would this be handled differently? Would the gun advocates stand up for the right of Trayvon to carry or use him as a reason why we need open carry?

Discuss.






*Yes I said "back" not "Black"... you read it wrong... BURN SAUCE! BTW: Trayvon is Black. Not saying race might be an additional factor as "Black teen walking" is only a daily call to 911 in many parts of America.

Even with open carry laws and "stand your ground" (aka "shoot first") laws in place, heroic patriotic Real American^TM Zimmermann would still have been justified in killing the teenager because Trayvon was black and wearing a hoodie.

If we are not allowed to kill any hoodie-wearing black teenagers we find on the streets, then we are all less free and the Islamo-communists will have won. You don't want us all to be less free, do you? [/conservolibertarian]

 

[AthenaAwakened]

For good reason. His group didn't just "open carry" but engaged in bank robberies, murders, attacks on prisons. Huey Newton was murdered himself, not by any "scared white" people but by his fellow thugs.

which has what to do with what would happen if trayvon had had a shotgun?

Nothing, but you get to rant about "evil black men" and apparently that is really the point you feel you need to make

That is relevant, that is on point with wondering what would have happened had this black male had a gun. It is quite logical to draw comparison with past behavior.

Yet you have omitted very relevant parts of the story.

wrong again sunshine, but keep swinging. You are batting a thousand, backwards.

You skip all that to go off on a tirade about Huey Newton's death, as if his death was a direct result of him walking down a street In Oakland with a 12 gage.

They are certainly related.

uh, no.

And btw, it's "gauge".

thus proving even a broke clock is right twice a day, or this case once. Two times is just too much to hope for.

 

[Keith&Co.]

And since when phonetic pronunciation in French is supposed to be with a pause in between syllables?

When you're not only ostentatiously pronouncing it as a French style word for the import of cultural superiority that gives one's statements, but when you want to make sure that your audience cannot miss the fact that you've eschewed your and their common tongue in order to give weight to your statement.

Or, when you're doing a Bill Shatner - speaks - French impression.
"And this is Bill welcoming European investors to a business lunch: 'Bon. Ah. Petit-mon. Soo. Wers.'

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I see a lot of advocacy of self-defense and open carry from corners of the internets. For example, recently a teen was stopped in Aurora, Co while advocating open carry by walking with his shotgun.

http://kdvr.com/2014/08/01/aurora-t...th-shotgun-videotapes-encounters-with-police/

My thought experiment is what if this teen was say Trayvon Martin back* in his neighborhood in Florida, or an Any St., U.S.A. Would this be handled differently?

Yes. Zimmerman would have shot him first and called 9/11 later. He also never would have gone to trial in the first place.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yet you have omitted made-up parts of the story.

FIFY.

Huey Newton was hated by whites because he was a radical black panther who advocated the violent overthrow of the U.S. government by black people in what he saw as an inevitable race war. He got in trouble with the law because he was short-tempered and impulsive, which is not a good thing to be when you're black in the 1960s.

For the record, he was never convicted of bank robberies and his homicide conviction for shooting two white cops was overturned for lack of evidence (Newton claimed that the cops wound up shooting EACH OTHER by mistake, apparently when both drew their guns at the same time standing on opposite sides of him).

They are certainly related.

They're not. In fact, if Newton HAD been armed during that encounter he would probably still be alive; if anything, he is dead because he DIDN'T have a shotgun when he really needed one.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

People are reacting to the idea of an armed black guy in interesting ways. It reminds me of this photo.

This photo was often cropped by the news media to hide the fact that this open carrying Tea Party protester is - gasp - black. Some people were very afraid of an armed black guy.

 

[The Paul]

People are reacting to the idea of an armed black guy in interesting ways. It reminds me of this photo.

This photo was often cropped by the news media to hide the fact that this open carrying Tea Party protester is - gasp - black. Some people were very afraid of an armed black guy.

Oh, yeah.

Now all those really weird, zoomed-in images of a rifle strapped across the shoulder of a dress shirt with no context or background make a lot more sense.

I was really wondering why the media kept showing me that image.

 

[RavenSky]

I think Trayvon would be alive today because I don't believe Zimmerman would have had the balls to approach him if he saw Trayvon with a weapon.

^^^ though the police would have still been called, and therefore Trayvon (pronounced "the french way" wetf that means just because) might still have been killed... but by police instead of by Zimmerman.

 

[Arctish]

I think Trayvon would be alive today because I don't believe Zimmerman would have had the balls to approach him if he saw Trayvon with a weapon.

^^^ though the police would have still been called, and therefore Trayvon (pronounced "the french way" wetf that means just because) might still have been killed... but by police instead of by Zimmerman.

Yeah, a black kid carrying a weapon at night in a gated community isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt, not that Martin ever had it.

(I hope we don't have to pronounce Trayvon the "French way". That back-of-the-throat hacking sound they use for the letter "r" is really hard to make. T*hrrrrgh*ay-von.)

 

[Tom Sawyer]

People are reacting to the idea of an armed black guy in interesting ways. It reminds me of this photo.

This photo was often cropped by the news media to hide the fact that this open carrying Tea Party protester is - gasp - black. Some people were very afraid of an armed black guy.

Who cropped this and how? I don't see how it could be cropped to hide the fact that he's black.

 

[marc]

It is quite a synergy resulting from the two laws. 'Stand Your Ground' has been used to justify the use of lethal force if the person just thinks they are in danger, which has resulted in unarmed people being killed. With Open Carry, there is no longer a question of is the other person armed. So knowing the other person is armed, some people will be more likely to shoot first, as they know for sure the other person can be a threat.

On the other hand, open carry is supposed to discourage people from attacking, since they know you are armed. I would expect a number of potential criminals would avoid someone with a visible gun, and go for easier targets. However, some won't be discouraged, and simply adjust their plans to either kill the target, or take their gun first. 'Stand Your Ground' would still be used as an excuse to justify murder. It would just be easier to make the claim of legitimate fear for their life.

As for the Travon case, I believe that Zimmerman would have called in the police, but probably wouldn't have tried to follow Travon himself. The police reaction to Travon might have resulted in the police shooting him, or just them questioning him a bit. Hard to tell for sure what the outcome is likely to have been.

 

[RavenSky]

As for the Travon case, I believe that Zimmerman would have called in the police, but probably wouldn't have tried to follow Travon himself. The police reaction to Travon might have resulted in the police shooting him, or just them questioning him a bit. Hard to tell for sure what the outcome is likely to have been.

This was Sanford Florida, and the same police that let Zimmerman go in the first place. I would not have placed any bets in favor of Trayvon surviving an encounter with them (with or without the open carry factor). What might have worked in Trayvon's favor is that, had Zimmerman not stalked him, Trayvon would have been safely home by the time police arrived, and no one would have known where he was.

 

[Derec]

As for the Travon case, I believe that Zimmerman would have called in the police, but probably wouldn't have tried to follow Travon himself. The police reaction to Travon might have resulted in the police shooting him, or just them questioning him a bit. Hard to tell for sure what the outcome is likely to have been.

At the very least he would have been arrested and charged with firearms offenses. Open carry is not generally allowed in Florida (according to opencarry.org) and Tray-Von wouldn't be allowed to have a gun anyway because he was only 17.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

People are reacting to the idea of an armed black guy in interesting ways. It reminds me of this photo.

This photo was often cropped by the news media to hide the fact that this open carrying Tea Party protester is - gasp - black. Some people were very afraid of an armed black guy.

Who cropped this and how? I don't see how it could be cropped to hide the fact that he's black.

Unreal: MSNBC edits clip of man with gun at Obama rally to support racism narrative

Apparently the folks at MSNBC are terrified of the idea of a black man with a gun.

 

[Derec]

FIFY.

What exactly is made up?

Huey Newton was hated by whites because he was a radical black panther who advocated the violent overthrow of the U.S. government by black people in what he saw as an inevitable race war.

Imagine, he only wanted to incite a race war and violently overthrow US government and the "whites" hated him. Must have been a bunch of racists - why else would anybody hate him.
And remember, it was not "whitey" who killed him in the end.

He got in trouble with the law because he was short-tempered and impulsive, which is not a good thing to be when you're black in the 1960s.

Not to mention that he was a thug. From his wiki page,

As a teenager, he was arrested several times for minor offenses, including gun possession and vandalism at age 14.
Newton supported himself in college by burglarizing homes in the Oakland and Berkeley Hills areas, and by committing other petty crimes.
[...]
Newton had been convicted of assault with a deadly weapon for repeatedly stabbing another man, Odell Lee, with a steak knife in mid-1964. He served six months in prison.

That's only the stuff he did before he founded Black Panthers.
And again, it was Athena who brought up Newton as an example of blacks open carrying, not I.

For the record, he was never convicted of bank robberies and his homicide conviction for shooting two white cops was overturned for lack of evidence (Newton claimed that the cops wound up shooting EACH OTHER by mistake, apparently when both drew their guns at the same time standing on opposite sides of him).

I said his organization engaged in all these things, which is beyond dispute.
Of course, if a Mafia don escapes convictions than that proves he is just a "legitimate businessman", right? Or does that work only for favored minorities heading radical left-wing organizations?

They're not. In fact, if Newton HAD been armed during that encounter he would probably still be alive; if anything, he is dead because he DIDN'T have a shotgun when he really needed one.

He spawned the radical, violent organizations which splintered and members of of on the splinters killed him. Thus his death is directly linked to his radical past. Prancing around Oakland with a shotgun was a manifestation of the same radical tendencies.
And besides, if they had a drop on him the shotgun would not have helped him much especially since it is big and thus less maneuverable than a handgun.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What exactly is made up?

Huey Newton was hated by whites because he was a radical black panther who advocated the violent overthrow of the U.S. government by black people in what he saw as an inevitable race war.

Imagine, he only wanted to incite a race war and violently overthrow US government and the "whites" hated him. Must have been a bunch of racists - why else would anybody hate him.
And remember, it was not "whitey" who killed him in the end.

He got in trouble with the law because he was short-tempered and impulsive, which is not a good thing to be when you're black in the 1960s.

Not to mention that he was a thug. From his wiki page,

As a teenager, he was arrested several times for minor offenses, including gun possession and vandalism at age 14.
Newton supported himself in college by burglarizing homes in the Oakland and Berkeley Hills areas, and by committing other petty crimes.
[...]
Newton had been convicted of assault with a deadly weapon for repeatedly stabbing another man, Odell Lee, with a steak knife in mid-1964. He served six months in prison.

And again, it was Athena who brought up Newton as an example of blacks open carrying, not I.

For the record, he was never convicted of bank robberies and his homicide conviction for shooting two white cops was overturned for lack of evidence (Newton claimed that the cops wound up shooting EACH OTHER by mistake, apparently when both drew their guns at the same time standing on opposite sides of him).

I said his organization engaged in all these things, which is beyond dispute.
Of course, if a Mafia don escapes convictions than that proves he is just a "legitimate businessman", right? Or does that work only for favored minorities heading radical left-wing organizations?

They're not. In fact, if Newton HAD been armed during that encounter he would probably still be alive; if anything, he is dead because he DIDN'T have a shotgun when he really needed one.

He spawned the radical, violent organizations which splintered and members of of on the splinters killed him. Thus his death is directly linked to his radical past. Prancing around Oakland with a shotgun was a manifestation of the same radical tendencies.
And besides, if they had a drop on him the shotgun would not have helped him much especially since it is big and thus less maneuverable than a handgun.

Hey Derec,

Huey Newton
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
Huey Newton

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As for the Travon case, I believe that Zimmerman would have called in the police, but probably wouldn't have tried to follow Travon himself. The police reaction to Travon might have resulted in the police shooting him, or just them questioning him a bit. Hard to tell for sure what the outcome is likely to have been.

This was Sanford Florida, and the same police that let Zimmerman go in the first place. I would not have placed any bets in favor of Trayvon surviving an encounter with them (with or without the open carry factor). What might have worked in Trayvon's favor is that, had Zimmerman not stalked him, Trayvon would have been safely home by the time police arrived, and no one would have known where he was.

Trayvon wouldn't have tried to use a beatdown against a cop, so there would have been no violence.