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What is Libertarianism?

My mind. Where did you?

Your have a single minded obsession.

I have a consistent position.

You can only recognize abusive authoritarian government as an oligarchy. Open your fucking eyes. People, average working class people, can be and are corrupted given power, some much more than others. It is an extremely rare person who isn't corrupted some by power.

I'm not inclined to disagree with you here except that my focus is on the people doing the most harm, not the victims. The people doing the most harm are these people with all this power their wealth gives them.

Or is it that you don't understand the meaning of the word oligarchy as you don't understand myopic? Do you think that if someone has a position of power it means that they are an oligarch - that it is a synonym for government official?

My position is simple. Money = Power. Lack of money = lack of power. That is the real world.

As far as the government I want it under democratic control, not control of the rich, which is oligarchy.

Bottom up control is always better than top down. All interests are heard with bottom up control (democratic control).

This I agree with depending on what you mean by "democratic control". However, if you mean by "democratic control" a system where majority rules in any and all decisions then I think you are being myopic again. A majority rules in all cases system allows the majority to inflect any oppressive regulations or abuse on the minority they wish. My preference is a system where there is built in protection of the minority from the whims of the majority even if that minority is only one individual.

Democratic control does not mean you can't have representative government.

But democratic control means the people tell the representatives what they want and good representatives must decide which direction is best for all concerns.

Right now we have mostly representatives who listen to the interests of a few rich people or rich corporations and decide which rich interest will prevail. The vast majority have absolutely no ability to have their concerns represented.

And this is because of the money involved in gaining and holding public office. And because of all the money the media gets in covering these absurd spectacles called elections.
What a load of bullshit. Certainly some rich people use their wealth to acquire power. However a hell of a lot of people who are not wealthy acquire power for the purpose of forcing their ideals on others, some non wealthy acquire power for the purpose of gaining wealth.

Pol Pot certainly wasn't wealthy. "The little corporeal", Adolph wasn't wealthy, Stalin, Fidel Castro, etc.

I assume we are not talking about Revolution and military power.

There is of course military power, and there is the power of the police. And the state exists because of this power.

But there is also the power of wealth.

If you can't see this power you are blind.
 
My mind. Where did you?

Your have a single minded obsession.

I have a consistent position.

You can only recognize abusive authoritarian government as an oligarchy. Open your fucking eyes. People, average working class people, can be and are corrupted given power, some much more than others. It is an extremely rare person who isn't corrupted some by power.

I'm not inclined to disagree with you here except that my focus is on the people doing the most harm, not the victims. The people doing the most harm are these people with all this power their wealth gives them.

Or is it that you don't understand the meaning of the word oligarchy as you don't understand myopic? Do you think that if someone has a position of power it means that they are an oligarch - that it is a synonym for government official?

My position is simple. Money = Power. Lack of money = lack of power. That is the real world.

As far as the government I want it under democratic control, not control of the rich, which is oligarchy.

Bottom up control is always better than top down. All interests are heard with bottom up control (democratic control).

This I agree with depending on what you mean by "democratic control". However, if you mean by "democratic control" a system where majority rules in any and all decisions then I think you are being myopic again. A majority rules in all cases system allows the majority to inflect any oppressive regulations or abuse on the minority they wish. My preference is a system where there is built in protection of the minority from the whims of the majority even if that minority is only one individual.

Democratic control does not mean you can't have representative government.

But democratic control means the people tell the representatives what they want and good representatives must decide which direction is best for all concerns.

Right now we have mostly representatives who listen to the interests of a few rich people or rich corporations and decide which rich interest will prevail. The vast majority have absolutely no ability to have their concerns represented.

And this is because of the money involved in gaining and holding public office. And because of all the money the media gets in covering these absurd spectacles called elections.
What a load of bullshit. Certainly some rich people use their wealth to acquire power. However a hell of a lot of people who are not wealthy acquire power for the purpose of forcing their ideals on others, some non wealthy acquire power for the purpose of gaining wealth.

Pol Pot certainly wasn't wealthy. "The little corporeal", Adolph wasn't wealthy, Stalin, Fidel Castro, etc.

I assume we are not talking about Revolution and military power.

There is of course military power, and there is the power of the police. And the state exists because of this power.

But there is also the power of wealth.

If you can't see this power you are blind.
Myopia again?

Once again, yes there are oligarchs but the really atrocious abuses of power (like the slaughter of thousands or millions or tens of millions) are by people who are not wealthy but gain power for the purpose of imposing their ideologies. - not so strangely, those ideologies are the ones you have supported, probably why you can't see the abuses.
 
I assume we are not talking about Revolution and military power.

There is of course military power, and there is the power of the police. And the state exists because of this power.

But there is also the power of wealth.

If you can't see this power you are blind.
Myopia again?

Once again, yes there are oligarchs but the really atrocious abuses of power (like the slaughter of thousands or millions or tens of millions) are by people who are not wealthy but gain power for the purpose of imposing their ideologies. - not so strangely, those ideologies are the ones you have supported, probably why you can't see the abuses.

You are a broken top.

Yes, there is military power.

But there is also the power of wealth.

And when the government is controlled by the wealthy that is no better than a government controlled by Pol Pot.

Who was a US creation after the US genocide in Cambodia created a power vacuum.

And the US was in Vietnam and Cambodia because that is what wealthy interests that controlled the government wanted.
 
Did John Locke consider himself a libertarian or do modern day libertarians consider JL a libertarian?
Why the fuck do you think a label is more important than the philosophy that the label signifies?

Even if Locke didn't call himself a libertarian (and I don't know because I was more interested in his philosophy than what he called himself), saying that he wasn't is like saying that Karl Marx wasn't a Marxist because that isn't what he called himself.

Libertarians may trace their roots to Locke, and be totally justified in doing so, but is Locke a fair representation of libertarianism today? So how does the philosophy of Locke compare with the libertarian philosophies of today? What has changed? What has stayed the same? How has the thought evolved? Who are the leading minds of today and how do they compare and contrast to Locke?
 
Why the fuck do you think a label is more important than the philosophy that the label signifies?

Even if Locke didn't call himself a libertarian (and I don't know because I was more interested in his philosophy than what he called himself), saying that he wasn't is like saying that Karl Marx wasn't a Marxist because that isn't what he called himself.

Libertarians may trace their roots to Locke, and be totally justified in doing so, but is Locke a fair representation of libertarianism today? So how does the philosophy of Locke compare with the libertarian philosophies of today? What has changed? What has stayed the same? How has the thought evolved? Who are the leading minds of today and how do they compare and contrast to Locke?
It looks like you need to visit a library. But then I get the impression that your endless questions (without ever acknowledging when they are shown to be completely misguided) are just your way of trying to justify your knee-jerk rejection of libertarianism.
 
Myopia again?

Once again, yes there are oligarchs but the really atrocious abuses of power (like the slaughter of thousands or millions or tens of millions) are by people who are not wealthy but gain power for the purpose of imposing their ideologies. - not so strangely, those ideologies are the ones you have supported, probably why you can't see the abuses.

You are a broken top.

Yes, there is military power.

But there is also the power of wealth.

And when the government is controlled by the wealthy that is no better than a government controlled by Pol Pot.

Who was a US creation after the US genocide in Cambodia created a power vacuum.

And the US was in Vietnam and Cambodia because that is what wealthy interests that controlled the government wanted.
Dude, your eternal obsession with marxism or communism or anarchy or whatever you are pushing is a derail of this thread. If you want to discuss your nonsense then open a thread.
 
How would a libertarian society cut down on oppression? Can you provide specifics?
Think of an example of what you think of as oppressive legislation. Now if the powers that were specifically granted to the government did not give them the authority then under libertarianism they would have been denied the power to pass it.

Republicans and Democrats seem to believe that the government has any power that it wants to assume unless that power was specifically denied to it.

Libertarians believe that all powers not specifically granted to government are denied to it.

And the proposed mechanism for preventing the government from simply granting itself more power is...?

But how does that cut down on oppression? The govt is not the only institution capable of oppressing people. How would libertarianism deal with these other institutions? How would it deal with cabals? Syndicates? Cartels?

Exactly. The primary factor that keeps, say, banks and insurance companies from pushing oppressive demands on their customers is the presence of government regulation that prevents them from doing so. If the government -- which operates as a representative democracy and is at least in theory answerable to the voters -- manages to systematically abuse its power, how does one prevent corporations and power brokers from doing the same?
 
Libertarians may trace their roots to Locke, and be totally justified in doing so, but is Locke a fair representation of libertarianism today? So how does the philosophy of Locke compare with the libertarian philosophies of today? What has changed? What has stayed the same? How has the thought evolved? Who are the leading minds of today and how do they compare and contrast to Locke?
It looks like you need to visit a library. But then I get the impression that your endless questions (without ever acknowledging when they are shown to be completely misguided) are just your way of trying to justify your knee-jerk rejection of libertarianism.

Where did I ever say I rejected Libertarianism?
 
You are a broken top.

Yes, there is military power.

But there is also the power of wealth.

And when the government is controlled by the wealthy that is no better than a government controlled by Pol Pot.

Who was a US creation after the US genocide in Cambodia created a power vacuum.

And the US was in Vietnam and Cambodia because that is what wealthy interests that controlled the government wanted.
Dude, your eternal obsession with marxism or communism or anarchy or whatever you are pushing is a derail of this thread. If you want to discuss your nonsense then open a thread.

You do understand you have been engaging on this topic for a while now?

Your position looks ridiculous so you now resort to this nonsense.

It is highly relevant to the simple minded obsession with "government" as the only or even greatest curb on liberty.
 
Think of an example of what you think of as oppressive legislation. Now if the powers that were specifically granted to the government did not give them the authority then under libertarianism they would have been denied the power to pass it.

Republicans and Democrats seem to believe that the government has any power that it wants to assume unless that power was specifically denied to it.

Libertarians believe that all powers not specifically granted to government are denied to it.

And the proposed mechanism for preventing the government from simply granting itself more power is...?
The simple way is to elect libertarians. The more difficult is for the electorate to actually learn something about how their government is supposed to work and get involved much more than just voting straight ticket for R or D every two years.
 
And the proposed mechanism for preventing the government from simply granting itself more power is...?
The simple way is to elect libertarians. The more difficult is for the electorate to actually learn something about how their government is supposed to work and get involved.

And when the libertarians are elected, what will they do? how will they tackle poverty, education, energy policy, the military, foreign policy, healthcare, housing, debt (public and private), immigration, unemployment, public safety, etc.?
 
The cornerstone of libertarianism is individual freedom. Under libertarianism, one of the focuses would be legislation that protects citizens from force, fraud, or abuse (just as today). However, if those "cabals? Syndicates? Cartels?" are not posing a threat to other individuals then why the fuck should anyone care. People should be free to form societies or associations with others of like mind even if you disagree with their beliefs as long as they don't include force, fraud, or abuse of any other individuals (just as today).
That's circular reasoning. You suggest that the government would be able to restrict the actions of abusive/coercive organizations through legislation like it does today; on the other hand, this is the same government that you identify as CURRENTLY behaving abusive and coercively towards the people and has failed to reign in its own abuses despite overwhelming public pressure.

Put it simply: if we HAD the kind of government that was willing to crack down on the use of force, fraud or abuse, we wouldn't be IN this mess in the first place. And if we manage to impose that value structure on government priorities by some means or another, a Libertarian government would seem to be superfluous; the government is no more likely to abuse its powers than private organizations over which it governs.

Libertarianism isn't about a utopian society. It is about limiting abuse and control of individuals by both government, other individuals and groups
Yes, but the only organization that can actually DO that is a properly structured government. What you're basically being asked is what kind of government do LIBERTARIANS think is the ideal form to accomplish this? Your answer seems to be "I don't know and I don't care."

And the proposed mechanism for preventing the government from simply granting itself more power is...?
The simple way is to elect libertarians.

That's not a "mechanism" so much as an article of faith that Libertarians wouldn't make those kinds of mistakes. It's one thing if you believe that's actually true and you think all Libertarians are honest and trustworthy. But we shouldn't have to TRUST libertarians -- or anyone, for that matter -- not to abuse their power or to live up to their ideals and campaign promises.

Question as above: what needs to change in our current government -- structurally and fundamentally -- in order to create the conditions Libertarians are looking for? And how do you plan to make those changes happen? (note that "Get elected" is not a meaningful answer to that question).
 
What exactly do you think we have when we don't have democracy?

All we ever end up with is power in the hands of a few who dictate to the majority.

And the way you protect rights is through Amendments.

You don't protect rights by limiting democracy.

You cannot have liberty without democracy.

You can have democracy without liberty. Democracy is insufficient. 50%+1 can vote to deprive 50%-1 of all their rights, up to and including their lives.
 
What exactly do you think we have when we don't have democracy?

All we ever end up with is power in the hands of a few who dictate to the majority.

And the way you protect rights is through Amendments.

You don't protect rights by limiting democracy.

You cannot have liberty without democracy.

You can have democracy without liberty. Democracy is insufficient. 50%+1 can vote to deprive 50%-1 of all their rights, up to and including their lives.
And when a large portion of the populace doesn't even show up at the polling booths, it takes far less than 50%.
 
Why the fuck do you think a label is more important than the philosophy that the label signifies?

Even if Locke didn't call himself a libertarian (and I don't know because I was more interested in his philosophy than what he called himself), saying that he wasn't is like saying that Karl Marx wasn't a Marxist because that isn't what he called himself.

Libertarians may trace their roots to Locke, and be totally justified in doing so, but is Locke a fair representation of libertarianism today? So how does the philosophy of Locke compare with the libertarian philosophies of today? What has changed? What has stayed the same? How has the thought evolved? Who are the leading minds of today and how do they compare and contrast to Locke?

Locke was very much opposed to any person owning more land than he could work in his own right. “As much land as a man tills, plants, improves, cultivates, and can use the product of, so much is his property".

In this, he stands sharply at odds with most modern libertarians, who would consider his proposed limits to the amount of wealth that can justly accumulate in one person's possession.

He is more like the Levellers, from whom he derived much of his philosophy, than he is like any modern libertarian.

And the Levellers are more Marxist than libertarian - albeit Marxism would not be labelled as such for a further two centuries.

Locke's main beef was with the idea of absolute monarchy, and his proposals were for a government that was free from such arbitrary tyranny. This makes him no more a libertarian in the modern sense than was George Washington or Robespierre. Freedom is not a concept on which libertarianism has a monopoly.
 
What exactly do you think we have when we don't have democracy?

All we ever end up with is power in the hands of a few who dictate to the majority.

And the way you protect rights is through Amendments.

You don't protect rights by limiting democracy.

You cannot have liberty without democracy.

You can have democracy without liberty. Democracy is insufficient. 50%+1 can vote to deprive 50%-1 of all their rights, up to and including their lives.

Give me a real world example where 51% voted to deprive 49% of their rights.

Just one.

What happens in the real world is less than 1% with great wealth uses that wealth to buy the government and deprive the other 99% of their right to things like clean air and water.
 
You can have democracy without liberty. Democracy is insufficient. 50%+1 can vote to deprive 50%-1 of all their rights, up to and including their lives.
And when a large portion of the populace doesn't even show up at the polling booths, it takes far less than 50%.
And even if everyone showed up at the polls, a pure democracy without built in protections for minorities is a stupid idea. It is lynch mob rule.
The facebook mentality of most Americans makes it possible to lead more than half the population into believing almost anything. Think of the visceral hatred of Arabs many Americans were driven to by media coverage after 9/11. It is quite possible that a popular vote to make it a crime to have the name Mohammed could have been passed by more than 50% of the population at that time. Hell, knowing the ignorance of most people, it could have even been made a capital offense.
 
So you are back to arguing your strawmen. Ask ten democrats and ten republicans to state the principles of their party in one short paragraph and you will get ten different answers from each party.

Yes, non-aggression is one of the principles of libertarians but not a full description. For me, the primary principle is that it is the people who specifically define the limited powers granted to government. The government is denied any power not specifically granted to them (the tenth amendment if you care to read it and think the Bill of Righta is a good idea). This seems to be in opposition to the philosophies of both democrats and republicans who think the government can have any power it chooses to assume and should decide what freedoms (if any) the people should be allowed to exercise. Of course, since you now have two ideas of libertarianism, ask eight more libertarians and you will likely get eight more answers as to the prime principle of libertarianism - just as the dems and repubs have different ideas about their respective parties.

This is also a function of an idealistic philosophy, libertarianism, that has not been put into practice in any meaningful way and the philosophies of the two parties that have been repeatedly tested.

Where the idealism of libertarianism fails is where idealism always fails, against cold hard reality. Where Owen's communes failed, where Marxism failed.

For example, libertarians agree property rights are vital to their principles but are unable to agree on what the definition of property is. Obviously if you list property rights as one of your guiding principles it helps if you know what property you mean. If you are going to remove government from your society as much as possible can you really have as a cornerstone of that society an element that depends on government to define it?

Your confusion over the tenth amendment points out why libertarianism might be appealing to you. The tenth amendment doesn't add anything to the constitution or to the bill of rights. It says that,

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[\i]

It is nothing more than a truism. It says that the constitution divides powers between the US and the states the way that the constitution divides the powers between the US and the states. It doesn't limit the powers of the federal government or those reserved for the states any more than if they had stopped at only nine amendments in the bill of rights.

Both houses of Congress repeatedly refused to add the word "expressly" before the word "delegated" in the wording of the amendment, as was the case in the Articles of Confederation which the Constitution replaced. They didn't intend to limit the powers of the federal government further or to subject the powers of the federal government to future constraints by actions of the states.

These are not my interpretations of the meaning of the amendment but also those of, among others, Justice Marshall and John Madison. Go here for more.

But you read the amendment as somehow limiting the powers given to the federal government over the state governments and the people, which after all was the single reason for writing the Constitution, to limit the powers that the states had had previously over the central government and the people under the Articles of Confederation.

That, for you, "... the primary principle [of libertarianism] is that it is the people who specifically define the limited powers granted to government." As I have said repeatedly, I agree with the principles of libertarianism as I agree with motherhood and apple pie. Can you show me anyone who, for example, believes that we should base our society on the principle of aggression against anyone and everyone? Or can you back up your claim that democrats and republicans believe that the power of the, presumably only, the federal government is unlimited?

That the same reason that you misinterpreted the tenth amendment is the same reason that libertarianism appeals to you, your mistrust of the federal government. That the fantasy of libertarianism has gotten you because you believe that it will reduce the dangerous federal government through some poorly defined mechanism combining maximum individual freedom with the self-regulating, self-organizing free market. That your bias against government is what drives you, not some intellectually arrived at appreciation of the superiority of libertarianism.
 
You can have democracy without liberty. Democracy is insufficient. 50%+1 can vote to deprive 50%-1 of all their rights, up to and including their lives.

Give me a real world example where 51% voted to deprive 49% of their rights.

Just one.

What happens in the real world is less than 1% with great wealth uses that wealth to buy the government and deprive the other 99% of their right to things like clean air and water.

The democracy that the US created in Iraq, where the 60% Shia are quite nasty to the 20% Sunni.

I'm sure the population of True Scotsmen isn't high enough in Iraq though.
 
One way would be to say that libertarianism is the political philosophy dedicated to maximizing the rights of the individual. Another way is with the NAP or ZAP, which means "Non-Aggression Principle" or "Zero-Aggression Principle." This means that no person has the right to initiate aggression against another person.
...
Since no person has the right to initiate aggression, no person may delegate that right. Not even if they get together in a large group and do so by voting.

Everything else libertarian derives from that.
Here's the problem with that explanation. Okay, the two problems. The little problem is that you haven't shown any means by which we can determine what is or isn't aggression. For instance, you say private property isn't aggression and arkirk says it is. If we can't determine who's right, then you haven't actually defined libertarianism. All you've done is set us up for a "You're initiating aggression."/"No, you are!" shout-fest. But as I said, that's a little problem. All you need to do to deal with it is give us the libertarian definition of aggression. We can incorporate that into your explanation and then Bob's your uncle. (So, since you aren't answering my question about how to find out who's right, please define "aggression" as libertarians understand it.)

The big problem is that you've given us not one but two definitions: maximizing rights and zero aggression initiation. You appear to be taking for granted that the two are equivalent. But it's not at all self-evident that they're equivalent. It seems obvious to me that there exist circumstances where somebody initiating aggression against somebody else will do a better job of protecting individuals' rights than if he refrains from initiating aggression. If such circumstances indeed exist then once again you haven't defined libertarianism. All you've done is given libertarians an unfalsifiability engine -- a contradiction lets one logically derive anything. So if you want to produce a workable explanation of libertarianism you're going to need to either prove the counterintuitive proposition that your two definitions really are equivalent, or else drop one of the two.

Even though I did give enough information for anyone to derive libertarian policy positions, by giving libertarian principles, apparently it wasn't enough.

As I wrote, nobody is allowed to initiate aggression. So what is aggression.

If you take an action that violates someone's right to life. Therefore we are against murder, assault, and rape.
If you take an action that violates someone's right to liberty. Therefore we are against kidnapping, slavery, military draft, coerced servitude, and rape.
If you take an action that violates someone's right to property. Therefore we area against theft, breach of contract, and that is the basis for our opposition to taxation.

Yes, liberals, conservatives, and progressive are against all that too. But as I said before, what makes libertarianism different is that it applies those "don't do it" principles to the government as well, not carving out a big exception the way conservoprogressives do. Even the government shall not initiate aggression to violate the rights to life, liberty, and property. The function of the government is to protect the rights to life, liberty, and property, and nothing more.

There are two reasons we are so anti-government. The first reason is that of all the actors in civil society today, none compare to the government in violating those rights. Even criminal mafias fall shy when compared to the government. The second is in the phrase "and nothing more" and almost every political discussion among conservoprogressives is in the "more" and not in the "protect the rights to life, liberty, and property".
 
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