What is Racism?

[Davka]

I suspect that race issues are made much harder to discuss here because most people hear the word "racist" and think of some sort of misanthropic asshole like Archie Bunker, the kind of person whose attitude is best summed up as "I fucking hate those goddamned [insert racial epithet here]," alongside the belief that white people are intrinsically superior to minorities.

In reality, the words "racist" and "racism" point to people and phenomena as varied and complex as the words "atheist" and "atheism." Rather than go into a lengthy and opaque dissertation on the use of these terms in popular culture vs. sociology, I'm going to use terms that are more familiar to folks on this board. So for starters, I'm going to call the attitude of people who use racial slurs and tell racist jokes as "hard racism."

Hard Racism has been on the decline for many years now, and it's actually gotten pretty rare. This can be measured by the response to questions such as "would you vote for a Hispanic candidate" or "are you opposed to inter-racial marriages." The Archie Bunker-types of the world are fading away, thankfully. What is far more common today is something I will call "soft racism."

Soft Racism is widespread, even among people who think of themselves as broad-minded and egalitarian. Soft racism includes the belief (often subconscious) that you actually know something about a person simply by identifying their race. In reality, the only thing you know when you meet someone who has dark skin, or epithelial folds, is that they have dark skin or epithelial folds. You don't know anything about their life, their background, their abilities, or their worldview.

Soft Racism is often expressed in declarations such as "if only {minority group X} would do/stop doing {thing Y}, we wouldn't have these problems." Soft Racism assumes that, since Hard Racism is rare and getting rarer, therefore racism is not longer a thing. It's time, believes the soft racist, for "those people" to get over it and move on. But even soft racism is easier to deal with than what I will call "unconscious racism," or what the sociologists call Institutionalized racism.

Unconscious or institutionalized racism can best be defined by working backwards from its effects on society. Unconscious racism has the odd quality of not needing individuals to be racist in order to exist. When an institution or social norm has the effect of making it more difficult for a class or group or race of people to succeed in the larger society, that institution or norm is racist in its effect. This kind of racism continues not because people are overtly racist or even mildly subconsciously racist, but merely because people do not see it, and thus do nothing to change it.

OK, enough words for now. That's my take on the meaning of racism. What's yours?


ETA: Yeah, I know that asking "what is racism" is one of the Things White People Do. So I'm white - so sue me (for reparations).

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Depends on who you ask I guess.

We recently had a thread where Athena insisted that "racism" is something only white people can be, because it requires power. Something like that. Only the dominant group can be racist, because you need power over others to be racist, she claims. It looks a lot more to me like she just wants to exclude the group she identifies with any possible connection to the negative connotations of the word "racism". That is ironically racist in itself.

I prefer your simpler definition. Racism is what is sounds like, judging people or assuming things about them, or treating them differently, based on race. Anybody can be racist, and to some extent, we all are.

I rarely run into people who are what you call "hard racist". It has been a long time since I heard anybody object to an inter racial marriage, and actually, I think that would be more common amongst and between minority groups today than it would be in white people, but that is just my perception. I haven't heard anybody object to a mayor of race X either. That is progress. It is good to see. But it certainly doesn't mean racism is over.

What you call soft racism certainly still persists, and it flows in all directions. I do have to wonder why you wrote "minority group X" instead of "racial group X".

Unconscious or institutionalized racism can best be defined by working backwards from its effects on society. Unconscious racism has the odd quality of not needing individuals to be racist in order to exist. When an institution or social norm has the effect of making it more difficult for a class or group or race of people to succeed in the larger society, that institution or norm is racist in its effect. This kind of racism continues not because people are overtly racist or even mildly subconsciously racist, but merely because people do not see it, and thus do nothing to change it.

Would you include racial subcultures in this? Does this include things like Asians expecting other Asians to excel at math?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Soft Racism is widespread, even among people who think of themselves as broad-minded and egalitarian. Soft racism includes the belief (often subconscious) that you actually know something about a person simply by identifying their race. In reality, the only thing you know when you meet someone who has dark skin, or epithelial folds, is that they have dark skin or epithelial folds. You don't know anything about their life, their background, their abilities, or their worldview.

This is certainly 'racial prejudice'. As Jolly points out, some people think of race-"ism" as something that operates at a systemic level rather than at an individual one.

 

[Davka]

Depends on who you ask I guess.

We recently had a thread where Athena insisted that "racism" is something only white people can be, because it requires power. Something like that. Only the dominant group can be racist, because you need power over others to be racist, she claims. It looks a lot more to me like she just wants to exclude the group she identifies with any possible connection to the negative connotations of the word "racism". That is ironically racist in itself.

This is a definition that's commonly used in Sociology: racial bigotry + power = racism. I agree that it is a problematic definition. I've had conversations with black people who object to this definition as well. i understand where Athena is coming from with this definition, but most people simply equate racism with racial bigotry. However, if you want to split definitional hairs, you can say that white Americans can be racist, while those Americans who belong to a minority can be racially bigoted.

I think it's an unnecessary linguistic complication, but that's just my opinion.

I prefer your simpler definition. Racism is what is sounds like, judging people or assuming things about them, or treating them differently, based on race. Anybody can be racist, and to some extent, we all are.

It's a lot deeper than assuming things or treating people differently. There is an inherent assumption that those of the minority race are inferior in some way, for reasons which are intrinsic to their race.

I rarely run into people who are what you call "hard racist". It has been a long time since I heard anybody object to an inter racial marriage, and actually, I think that would be more common amongst and between minority groups today than it would be in white people, but that is just my perception. I haven't heard anybody object to a mayor of race X either. That is progress. It is good to see. But it certainly doesn't mean racism is over.

Some anecdotes: During my time in Tennessee, I would regularly run into people who would try to feel me out before telling a racist joke. Hard racism is still out there, but it's frowned upon by the majority, so hard racists keep it quiet in public. Still, private polling shows a dramatic and steady decline in hard racism.

What you call soft racism certainly still persists, and it flows in all directions. I do have to wonder why you wrote "minority group X" instead of "racial group X".

Primarily because blaming minorities for race-related problems is often (but not always) part of soft racism. I agree that there are people in minority groups who judge first based on skin color, but as you said that's pretty human.

Unconscious or institutionalized racism can best be defined by working backwards from its effects on society. Unconscious racism has the odd quality of not needing individuals to be racist in order to exist. When an institution or social norm has the effect of making it more difficult for a class or group or race of people to succeed in the larger society, that institution or norm is racist in its effect. This kind of racism continues not because people are overtly racist or even mildly subconsciously racist, but merely because people do not see it, and thus do nothing to change it.

Would you include racial subcultures in this? Does this include things like Asians expecting other Asians to excel at math?

I would not call that racism. It's more like cultural expectations. Like the way Jewish Mothers stereotypically expect their sons to be doctors or lawyers, and their daughters to marry good Jewish boys. These sorts of expectations do not have the effect of making it more difficult for Asians or Jews to succeed, they're just annoying.

 

[repoman]

I will give an example of what I saw today and how I reacted to it. How did this racism come out of me and what kind of racism is it?

I was in Downtown Seattle and I saw a nice bicycle just outside of the entrance of Ross (3rd and Pike) with no lock. Considering how sketchy the area can be I went inside and realize it belonged to the older black guy who was shooting the breeze with the short black extremely sturdy police man who was working the door to prevent shoplifting. I said to him that he should just bring it inside because a theft could happen in a matter of 2 seconds.

After that it got a bit strange and the cop left his post with the guy and walked across the street having a heated argument about something. I went to another store and walked past Ross about 20 minutes later. Now another older black guy was talking to the cop again. My thought was that there is no way that a white cop could as easily get away with this. Also, why would anyone want to hire out a black cop for this job instead of white guy who would take the job more seriously.

 

[Davka]

I will give an example of what I saw today and how I reacted to it. How did this racism come out of me and what kind of racism is it?

I was in Downtown Seattle and I saw a nice bicycle just outside of the entrance of Ross (3rd and Pike) with no lock. Considering how sketchy the area can be I went inside and realize it belonged to the older black guy who was shooting the breeze with the short black extremely sturdy police man who was working the door to prevent shoplifting. I said to him that he should just bring it inside because a theft could happen in a matter of 2 seconds.

After that it got a bit strange and the cop left his post with the guy and walked across the street having a heated argument about something. I went to another store and walked past Ross about 20 minutes later. Now another older black guy was talking to the cop again. My thought was that there is no way that a white cop could as easily get away with this. Also, why would anyone want to hire out a black cop for this job instead of white guy who would take the job more seriously.

That would be some pretty solid racism there, ayup. 'Cause white cops never spend hours in the donut shop shooting the breeze, nossiree!

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Unconscious or institutionalized racism can best be defined by working backwards from its effects on society. Unconscious racism has the odd quality of not needing individuals to be racist in order to exist. When an institution or social norm has the effect of making it more difficult for a class or group or race of people to succeed in the larger society, that institution or norm is racist in its effect. This kind of racism continues not because people are overtly racist or even mildly subconsciously racist, but merely because people do not see it, and thus do nothing to change it.

That's racism to me, judging individuals with a prejudged group identity based on skin color. It's practiced to different degrees, but it's all racism.

Technically the prejudice can be negative or positive I suppose, though it's typically negative.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is a definition that's commonly used in Sociology: racial bigotry + power = racism. I agree that it is a problematic definition. I've had conversations with black people who object to this definition as well. i understand where Athena is coming from with this definition, but most people simply equate racism with racial bigotry. However, if you want to split definitional hairs, you can say that white Americans can be racist, while those Americans who belong to a minority can be racially bigoted.

It's a very bad definition.

1) One can be a bigot without acting on one's opinions.

2) Whether one can act on racist desires is based on very localized power, not overall power. A black manager can refuse to hire a white person even though he's the only black manager in KKK-ville.

 

[bilby]

... A black manager can refuse to hire a white person even though he's the only black manager in KKK-ville.

Not if he wants to live he can't.

Intimidation is a major function of bigotry. It would be a lot of work to lynch every black man in town. But the rest will soon fall in line if you lynch any who get uppity.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I suspect that race issues are made much harder to discuss here because most people hear the word "racist" and think of some sort of misanthropic asshole like Archie Bunker, the kind of person whose attitude is best summed up as "I fucking hate those goddamned [insert racial epithet here]," alongside the belief that white people are intrinsically superior to minorities.

Well, yeah. That's EXACTLY what racism is.

In reality, the words "racist" and "racism" point to people and phenomena as varied and complex as the words "atheist" and "atheism." Rather than go into a lengthy and opaque dissertation on the use of these terms in popular culture vs. sociology, I'm going to use terms that are more familiar to folks on this board. So for starters, I'm going to call the attitude of people who use racial slurs and tell racist jokes as "hard racism."

I had understood that to be defined as "racial bigotry." That is, an incoherent disorganized form of racial animus that causes one to actively dislike or disparage a particular racial group.

Racial bigotry is not racism because it's not an "ism." It's not a belief system to which any sort of consistent worldview could be attributed. It's really just a set preferences and social orientations possessed by a specific type of asshole (not unlike, say, people who text while driving or people who think it's okay to take selfies in movie theaters, and other forms of general dickishness).

Soft Racism is widespread, even among people who think of themselves as broad-minded and egalitarian. Soft racism includes the belief (often subconscious) that you actually know something about a person simply by identifying their race. In reality, the only thing you know when you meet someone who has dark skin, or epithelial folds, is that they have dark skin or epithelial folds. You don't know anything about their life, their background, their abilities, or their worldview.

That's not racism at all. That's just prejudice. It's as common as it is because EVERYONE possesses prejudices about people whose manner and personalities they are not directly familiar with. The less you know about a person, the more your mind fills in the blanks with what you THINK you know based on what little information you have.

I have never actually met a person of any race who does not possess racial prejudices against other races. I've noticed, however, that young people are able to cope with their prejudices ALOT more efficiently than older people. Probably just comes from being young and being open to assimilating new information about the world, as opposed to the tendency of older people to assume that their incredibly flawed knowledge is reliable just because it feels right. Lately I'm beginning to think that it has less to do with age and may actually be a GENERATIONAL thing: people who grew up in a rapidly changing, uncertain and thoroughly confusing world are more used to discovering something they thought they knew is completely wrong, compared to people who grew up surrounded by faux certainty and artificial consistency (just a theory).

Soft Racism is often expressed in declarations such as "if only {minority group X} would do/stop doing {thing Y}, we wouldn't have these problems." Soft Racism assumes that, since Hard Racism is rare and getting rarer, therefore racism is not longer a thing. It's time, believes the soft racist, for "those people" to get over it and move on. But even soft racism is easier to deal with than what I will call "unconscious racism," or what the sociologists call Institutionalized racism.

Yeah, that's still just racial prejudice. That, in particular, is just one specific meme perpetuated by people who possess a specific political ideology.

so sue me (for reparations).

Gesundheit.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It has been a long time since I heard anybody object to an inter racial marriage, and actually, I think that would be more common amongst and between minority groups today than it would be in white people, but that is just my perception. I haven't heard anybody object to a mayor of race X either. That is progress. It is good to see. But it certainly doesn't mean racism is over.

I don't think i've heard an actual objection to my marriage since i left the Navy. And that guy was set up. My shipmates got him talking to get him to repeat his 'but would you want your sister to marry one?' comment in front of me. They thought it would be hilarious.

But there is still a lot of casual assumptions made on racial lines.

I'm in the habit of putting my hand on my wife's arm when we order at a lunch counter or fast food, because they tend to total up the order too soon, on the assumption that we're not together.

The farther North we go, the more interested people seem to be, like it's unusual. One of our three boys is a lot darker than the other two. We've heard people at other tables deciding that Youngest Twin is 'ours,' and Oldest and Tallest are both mine by a previous marriage. We called it the Side Show affect.

There was one time i waved at my wife and a coworker as we drove by, and the chief i was driving insisted for two hours that my wife was pregnant, while i insisted that i'd had a vasectomy and she wasn't.

I lost my wife at a clinic one night. She had an asthma attack. I drove her to base medical. I asked about her status an hour later and three hospital corpsmen (all three women)(all three black) insisted that my wife was nowhere in the building. They finally asked for her name, and when i gave it, one protested 'But she's BLACK!'
I would give a great deal to have thought at the time, rather than an hour later, to shout back: What have you done to her!?!?!

 

[Davka]

I lost my wife at a clinic one night. She had an asthma attack. I drove her to base medical. I asked about her status an hour later and three hospital corpsmen (all three women)(all three black) insisted that my wife was nowhere in the building. They finally asked for her name, and when i gave it, one protested 'But she's BLACK!'
I would give a great deal to have thought at the time, rather than an hour later, to shout back: What have you done to her!?!?!

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I have never actually met a person of any race who does not possess racial prejudices against other races. I've noticed, however, that young people are able to cope with their prejudices ALOT more efficiently than older people. Probably just comes from being young and being open to assimilating new information about the world, as opposed to the tendency of older people to assume that their incredibly flawed knowledge is reliable just because it feels right. Lately I'm beginning to think that it has less to do with age and may actually be a GENERATIONAL thing: people who grew up in a rapidly changing, uncertain and thoroughly confusing world are more used to discovering something they thought they knew is completely wrong, compared to people who grew up surrounded by faux certainty and artificial consistency (just a theory).

That's my take as well. When my kids were young they played with everyone, like all kids do. They played with the little black girl and the little Chinese kid just like they were normal kids (/Archie Bunker mode). When their grandmother witnessed this she exclaimed, "Your son is playing with a B-L-A-C-K girl." It was a rather sickening moment to experience how racism and prejudice are reborn.

 

[Davka]

I have never actually met a person of any race who does not possess racial prejudices against other races. I've noticed, however, that young people are able to cope with their prejudices ALOT more efficiently than older people. Probably just comes from being young and being open to assimilating new information about the world, as opposed to the tendency of older people to assume that their incredibly flawed knowledge is reliable just because it feels right. Lately I'm beginning to think that it has less to do with age and may actually be a GENERATIONAL thing: people who grew up in a rapidly changing, uncertain and thoroughly confusing world are more used to discovering something they thought they knew is completely wrong, compared to people who grew up surrounded by faux certainty and artificial consistency (just a theory).

That's my take as well. When my kids were young they played with everyone, like all kids do. They played with the little black girl and the little Chinese kid just like they were normal kids (/Archie Bunker mode). When their grandmother witnessed this she exclaimed, "Your son is playing with a B-L-A-C-K girl." It was a rather sickening moment to experience how racism and prejudice are reborn.

When I was in 2nd grade, my best friend was a black kid. I honestly didn't even notice his race, he was just my best friend Tony. It was not until years later that I became aware of how unusual our friendship had been in 1968.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

... A black manager can refuse to hire a white person even though he's the only black manager in KKK-ville.

Not if he wants to live he can't.

Intimidation is a major function of bigotry. It would be a lot of work to lynch every black man in town. But the rest will soon fall in line if you lynch any who get uppity.

Yeah, I guess my illustration was too extreme. The basic idea applies, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm in the habit of putting my hand on my wife's arm when we order at a lunch counter or fast food, because they tend to total up the order too soon, on the assumption that we're not together.

Yeah, we have the same problem on occasion, although since we are generally touching when we walk together it doesn't happen too often.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I have never actually met a person of any race who does not possess racial prejudices against other races. I've noticed, however, that young people are able to cope with their prejudices ALOT more efficiently than older people. Probably just comes from being young and being open to assimilating new information about the world, as opposed to the tendency of older people to assume that their incredibly flawed knowledge is reliable just because it feels right. Lately I'm beginning to think that it has less to do with age and may actually be a GENERATIONAL thing: people who grew up in a rapidly changing, uncertain and thoroughly confusing world are more used to discovering something they thought they knew is completely wrong, compared to people who grew up surrounded by faux certainty and artificial consistency (just a theory).

That's my take as well. When my kids were young they played with everyone, like all kids do. They played with the little black girl and the little Chinese kid just like they were normal kids (/Archie Bunker mode). When their grandmother witnessed this she exclaimed, "Your son is playing with a B-L-A-C-K girl." It was a rather sickening moment to experience how racism and prejudice are reborn.

A couple days ago my grandfather asked my son (6) about the kids he was playing with at his birthday party. Little guy proceeded to answer "I played Avengers with John and Tomas and Carlos. And also that black kid I've never seen before but he was cool."

This gave my grandfather pause, as he suddenly realized that my son was, in fact, the only black kid AT the party. We had to go through photos of the event before we realized: the "black kid" was "the kid in the black shirt and black pants." On further asking, we realized there was also a blue kid he didn't know, and a polkadot girl that I think he has a crush on.

 

[Davka]

That's my take as well. When my kids were young they played with everyone, like all kids do. They played with the little black girl and the little Chinese kid just like they were normal kids (/Archie Bunker mode). When their grandmother witnessed this she exclaimed, "Your son is playing with a B-L-A-C-K girl." It was a rather sickening moment to experience how racism and prejudice are reborn.

A couple days ago my grandfather asked my son (6) about the kids he was playing with at his birthday party. Little guy proceeded to answer "I played Avengers with John and Tomas and Carlos. And also that black kid I've never seen before but he was cool."

This gave my grandfather pause, as he suddenly realized that my son was, in fact, the only black kid AT the party. We had to go through photos of the event before we realized: the "black kid" was "the kid in the black shirt and black pants." On further asking, we realized there was also a blue kid he didn't know, and a polkadot girl that I think he has a crush on.

Well, sure - who wouldn't have a crush on the polkadot girl?

 

[bilby]

A couple days ago my grandfather asked my son (6) about the kids he was playing with at his birthday party. Little guy proceeded to answer "I played Avengers with John and Tomas and Carlos. And also that black kid I've never seen before but he was cool."

This gave my grandfather pause, as he suddenly realized that my son was, in fact, the only black kid AT the party. We had to go through photos of the event before we realized: the "black kid" was "the kid in the black shirt and black pants." On further asking, we realized there was also a blue kid he didn't know, and a polkadot girl that I think he has a crush on.

Well, sure - who wouldn't have a crush on the polkadot girl?

Particularly as I understand she prefers to wear an itsy-bitsy, teenie-weeny bikini.

 

[Tigers!]

Particularly as I understand she prefers to wear an itsy-bitsy, teenie-weeny bikini.

I found one at the pool once. Pity I never found the owner.