What is worse, racism or rape?

[Toni]

I think that the same thought processes and emotional mechanisms that drive racism also drive rape. At the core, there is a sense of entitlement, a belief that one person or one group is entitled to take/do what it wants and that the damage this behavior causes is really the fault of the victim for being the wrong color, the wrong religion, the wrong gender, the wrong nationality, dressed the wrong way, not properly submissive or subservient, not sufficiently respectful, not sober enough, in the wrong place or time, too drunk/drugged. In fact, the 'entitlement' of the 'superior' group isn't entitlement; it's a natural right, part of a natural order. Because everyone knows that s/he/they really wanted it, was looking for trouble, should have stayed in their place (at home, or wherever their grandparents were born).

A rapist tells himself or herself that what s/he is doing is really ok; that somehow the victim wanted/deserved it or that what the victim wanted didn't really matter, that the victim somehow failed to adhere to whatever rules and expectations with sufficient perfection and that this rape, which isn't really a rape because secretly, that victim must really want it or else they would be more compliant--isn't really a rape at all, isn't really wrong, is deserved by the victim, is somehow a natural right of the rapist. What red blooded male doesn't see a semi-to unconscious 13 year old covered in her own vomit and think: She wants me! I gotta get me some of that! An erection aroused must be satisfied, after all. And if you can get a few or a dozen or so of your buddies to join in, then so much more fun--plus it just proves how natural what you are doing really is. If the victim really deserved to be left alone s/he wouldn't be there in that condition, dressed that way, etc. The rapist has an absolute right to assert his/her power/wishes over the victim.

A racist tells himself/herself that the offending group is somehow less human, less deserving of the right to walk, work, attend school, be in public, where the racist is somehow inconvenienced by the fear the presence of the offending group arouses. It's about one group having the absolute right to assert its power over another group.

 

[thebeave]

Kinda interesting how no one had a problem identifying Catholic (male) priests as the perpetrators in the child rape scandal a few years ago in the Catholic Church. It didn't even come up that we should refer to it as a general "man thing", rather than a "Catholic man thing". But if Muslim men do the same thing?.... Its "nothing to see here"

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why do I get the impression that no one posting in this thread has actually read the articles the OP?

I realize that was a rhetorical question.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why do I get the impression that no one posting in this thread has actually read the articles the OP?

I confess, I couldn't stop laughing long enough to read the entire thing.

Or to understand the point it appears, but par for the course for you.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Kinda interesting how no one had a problem identifying Catholic (male) priests as the perpetrators in the child rape scandal a few years ago in the Catholic Church. It didn't even come up that we should refer to it as a general "man thing", rather than a "Catholic man thing". But if Muslim men do the same thing?.... Its "nothing to see here"

It never was a 'Catholic male' thing. It was a 'Catholic priest' thing in the press. People weren't ranting on and on about the threat of catholics raping children. It was about Catholic Priests abusing children and the church systematically covering it.

 

[repoman]

Kinda interesting how no one had a problem identifying Catholic (male) priests as the perpetrators in the child rape scandal a few years ago in the Catholic Church. It didn't even come up that we should refer to it as a general "man thing", rather than a "Catholic man thing". But if Muslim men do the same thing?.... Its "nothing to see here"

It never was a 'Catholic male' thing. It was a 'Catholic priest' thing in the press. People weren't ranting on and on about the threat of catholics raping children. It was about Catholic Priests abusing children and the church systematically covering it.

Yeah, the actual mechanics of how the Rotherham grooming happened needs to be fully investigated. Also, did these guys mostly or only groom white girls or also their own pakistsni girls as a group? If the former was that also a form of racism?

Also, did any of the men who were friends with men doing the grooming feel bad and report it to the police?

Maybe what happened is that they had a way to figure out if guy was interested in the grooming and molestation and would not feel guilty about it before bringing him into the fold.

But deinviduation in situations like this works really fast.

 

[Derec]

It never was a 'Catholic male' thing. It was a 'Catholic priest' thing in the press. People weren't ranting on and on about the threat of catholics raping children. It was about Catholic Priests abusing children and the church systematically covering it.

You think if such a scandal happened with Muslim imams and the media actually dared focus on suspects being Muslim imams, that they would not be called "racist" by the islamophilic Left?

 

[Derec]

You realize that that isn't an article in the Guardian, right?. It is an opinion column. You know, the place where people write all kinds of shit that the publication doesn't necessarily endorse but does think people will want to read.

You do realize that an opinion piece is not a comment thread? They are written either by permanent opinion page writers, the editorial board collectively or specifically invited guest writers.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You do realize that an opinion piece is not a comment thread? They are written either by permanent opinion page writers, the editorial board collectively or specifically invited guest writers.

The boards are usually men, too. It's really a man's world. Patriarchy.

Why is it that people like you will talk about genetic differences between men and women, but as soon as someone brings up violence and/or rape statistics differences, you ignore it, argue against it, or scream "help, help, I'm being oppressed?!"

Catholic priests are certainly men and the church is controlled by men and I wouldn't doubt it if imams were also involved in shenanigans and the same kinds of coverups are involved. It's a man's world after all. The difference is the secular left has been advocating for outing these priests from within the same cultural and so the advocacy has a certain kind of power. On the other hand, who is challenging imams from within? When will a secular left overthrow Muslim patriarchy from within? I know there are progressive movements there. Should we also ask who will overthrow Christian patriarchy from within, or generally Christian rule?

Trying to do it from the outside involves allying yourself with racist right-wingers who want to bomb them, including their children and that's just stupid.

So, what's the answer, certainly not forced castration?

 

[dismal]

Now, now. Before this thread gets out of hand, let's all take a breath and find a way to blame the rape gangs on white men.

I was going to pick: NAzis!

 

[TSwizzle]

The idea that Muslim immigrants and their families have brought sexual abuse and violence against women to our shores is an insult to them

Chi is just going to ignore honor killings, FGM and forced marriages etc.

 

[RavenSky]

Why do I get the impression that no one posting in this thread has actually read the articles the OP?

I am wondering the same thing. I thought the article was very well written and had a lot of excellent points.

 

[RavenSky]

I confess, I couldn't stop laughing long enough to read the entire thing.

Or to understand the point it appears, but par for the course for you.

exactly

 

[RavenSky]

Kinda interesting how no one had a problem identifying Catholic (male) priests as the perpetrators in the child rape scandal a few years ago in the Catholic Church. It didn't even come up that we should refer to it as a general "man thing", rather than a "Catholic man thing". But if Muslim men do the same thing?.... Its "nothing to see here"

It never was a 'Catholic male' thing. It was a 'Catholic priest' thing in the press. People weren't ranting on and on about the threat of catholics raping children. It was about Catholic Priests abusing children and the church systematically covering it.

Moreover, the author of the article Twizzle couldn't stop laughing at and and Jason couldn't stop ranting about made this point:

It has been claimed that some cases of sexual abuse have not been reported or taken seriously because the perpetrators were from ethnic minorities and the authorities wanted to be culturally sensitive. This is quite horrifying. Cultural sensitivity is a justification for serving lamb instead of pork. It is no reason to stand by while children are raped – and anyone who thinks that or anything close to that is themselves being racist as well as perpetuating abuse. It also undermines the thousands of hours of investigation by officers of Northumbria police and local safeguarding teams, who poured limited resources into bringing the perpetrators to justice.

But to say, as Sarah Champion did, that “Britain has a problem with British Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls” is either saying that Pakistanis are more likely to rape and more likely to rape white girls, or that the rape of white girls is more of a problem than the rape of, for example, white boys or brown girls. We have a huge problem with sexual violence against children and vulnerable adults.

 

[RavenSky]

And about the PC response from the authorities. The abuse in Rotterham was allowed to go on for a while because the local authorities did not want to appear "racist".

I would like genuine evidence with citations for this claim.

NOT memes and scare photos.

Actual, genuine evidence with links to their sources.

 

[whichphilosophy]

It never was a 'Catholic male' thing. It was a 'Catholic priest' thing in the press. People weren't ranting on and on about the threat of catholics raping children. It was about Catholic Priests abusing children and the church systematically covering it.

Moreover, the author of the article Twizzle couldn't stop laughing at and and Jason couldn't stop ranting about made this point:

It has been claimed that some cases of sexual abuse have not been reported or taken seriously because the perpetrators were from ethnic minorities and the authorities wanted to be culturally sensitive. This is quite horrifying. Cultural sensitivity is a justification for serving lamb instead of pork. It is no reason to stand by while children are raped – and anyone who thinks that or anything close to that is themselves being racist as well as perpetuating abuse. It also undermines the thousands of hours of investigation by officers of Northumbria police and local safeguarding teams, who poured limited resources into bringing the perpetrators to justice.

But to say, as Sarah Champion did, that “Britain has a problem with British Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls” is either saying that Pakistanis are more likely to rape and more likely to rape white girls, or that the rape of white girls is more of a problem than the rape of, for example, white boys or brown girls. We have a huge problem with sexual violence against children and vulnerable adults.

Rape is a problem in any community and has no ethnic boundaries. The issue was that in places like Rotherham organised gangs perpetrated grooming of under aged girls and the police were often sending the claimants away as being silly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...sed-in-petrol-if-they-threatened-to-tell.html

Victim arrested for being drunk
In 2008 an 11-year-old girl came to the attention of the police after she disclosed that she and another child had been sexually abused by a group of adult males.
Despite the fact she was identified as being one of a group of girls who was associating with a known sex abuser, her file was closed and she was deemed as being not at risk from sexual exploitation.
Less than a month later, she was found in a derelict house with another child, and a number of adult males.
She was arrested for being drunk and disorderly (her conviction was later set aside) and none of the males were arrested.
Consensual sex
In one of the most staggering passages in the report, Professor Jay revealed how a police officer dismissed the case of a 12-year-old girl who had been having sex with up to five Asian males, because he said she had been “100 per cent consensual in every incident”.
Missed opportunities
Three previous reports highlighted the problem of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham, but were ignored or supressed according to Professor Jay’s findings.

Now these are simply new reports and no detailed sources supplied.

However Muslims in the UK are not a problem. They mostly work and are easy to get on with. A few are not okay. A few years ago there was a problem which I understand affected 1,500 mainly under aged girls.

Other instances are some celebrities and the some Catholic church instances.

 

[RavenSky]

Rape is a problem in any community and has no ethnic boundaries.

Agree. And I think we agree that organized gangs perpetrating this type of sexual violence against vulnerable women and children has not ethnic/geographic boundaries either.

The issue was that in places like Rotherham organised gangs perpetrated grooming of under aged girls and the police were often sending the claimants away as being silly.

This is horrifying, but also very typical across ethnic and geographic boundaries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...sed-in-petrol-if-they-threatened-to-tell.html

Victim arrested for being drunk
In 2008 an 11-year-old girl came to the attention of the police after she disclosed that she and another child had been sexually abused by a group of adult males.
Despite the fact she was identified as being one of a group of girls who was associating with a known sex abuser, her file was closed and she was deemed as being not at risk from sexual exploitation.
Less than a month later, she was found in a derelict house with another child, and a number of adult males.
She was arrested for being drunk and disorderly (her conviction was later set aside) and none of the males were arrested.
Consensual sex
In one of the most staggering passages in the report, Professor Jay revealed how a police officer dismissed the case of a 12-year-old girl who had been having sex with up to five Asian males, because he said she had been “100 per cent consensual in every incident”.
Missed opportunities
Three previous reports highlighted the problem of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham, but were ignored or supressed according to Professor Jay’s findings.

Now these are simply new reports and no detailed sources supplied.

However Muslims in the UK are not a problem. They mostly work and are easy to get on with. A few are not okay.

Other instances are some celebrities and the some Catholic church instances.

 

[RavenSky]

The article Whichphilosophy posted did have this small passage with a couple of interesting points:

In Rotherham the "majority" of known perpetrators were of Pakistani heritage, the report says, which led to police and council workers "tiptoeing" around the problem.

In the council and the police there was a perception among staff that they should "downplay the ethnic dimensions of child sexual exploitation".

Frontline staff became confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as "racist".

Prof Jay adds: "From a political perspective, the approach of avoiding public discussion of the issues was ill judged."

Other than two meetings in 2011, there was no direct engagement with the Pakistani community about the issue of child sexual exploitation, despite "strong concern" from community leaders that there should be.

One of the local Pakistani women's groups described how Pakistani-heritage girls were targeted by taxi drivers and on occasion by older men lying in wait outside school gates at dinner times and after school.

They also cited cases in Rotherham where Pakistani landlords had befriended Pakistani women and girls on their own for purposes of sex, then passed on their name to other men who had then contacted them for sex.

The women and girls feared reporting such incidents to the Police because it would affect their future marriage prospects.

which goes back to what the author of the article in the OP said:

This is quite horrifying. Cultural sensitivity is a justification for serving lamb instead of pork. It is no reason to stand by while children are raped – and anyone who thinks that or anything close to that is themselves being racist as well as perpetuating abuse...

But to say, as Sarah Champion did, that “Britain has a problem with British Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls” is either saying that Pakistanis are more likely to rape and more likely to rape white girls, or that the rape of white girls is more of a problem than the rape of, for example, white boys or brown girls. We have a huge problem with sexual violence against children and vulnerable adults.

 

[RavenSky]

Yeah, the actual mechanics of how the Rotherham grooming happened needs to be fully investigated. Also, did these guys mostly or only groom white girls or also their own pakistsni girls as a group?

One of the local Pakistani women's groups described how Pakistani-heritage girls were targeted by taxi drivers and on occasion by older men lying in wait outside school gates at dinner times and after school.

They also cited cases in Rotherham where Pakistani landlords had befriended Pakistani women and girls on their own for purposes of sex, then passed on their name to other men who had then contacted them for sex.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...sed-in-petrol-if-they-threatened-to-tell.html

 

[ronburgundy]

I think that the same thought processes and emotional mechanisms that drive racism also drive rape. At the core, there is a sense of entitlement, a belief that one person or one group is entitled to take/do what it wants and that the damage this behavior causes is really the fault of the victim for being the wrong color, the wrong religion, the wrong gender, the wrong nationality, dressed the wrong way, not properly submissive or subservient, not sufficiently respectful, not sober enough, in the wrong place or time, too drunk/drugged. In fact, the 'entitlement' of the 'superior' group isn't entitlement; it's a natural right, part of a natural order. Because everyone knows that s/he/they really wanted it, was looking for trouble, should have stayed in their place (at home, or wherever their grandparents were born).

A rapist tells himself or herself that what s/he is doing is really ok; that somehow the victim wanted/deserved it or that what the victim wanted didn't really matter, that the victim somehow failed to adhere to whatever rules and expectations with sufficient perfection and that this rape, which isn't really a rape because secretly, that victim must really want it or else they would be more compliant--isn't really a rape at all, isn't really wrong, is deserved by the victim, is somehow a natural right of the rapist. What red blooded male doesn't see a semi-to unconscious 13 year old covered in her own vomit and think: She wants me! I gotta get me some of that! An erection aroused must be satisfied, after all. And if you can get a few or a dozen or so of your buddies to join in, then so much more fun--plus it just proves how natural what you are doing really is. If the victim really deserved to be left alone s/he wouldn't be there in that condition, dressed that way, etc. The rapist has an absolute right to assert his/her power/wishes over the victim.

A racist tells himself/herself that the offending group is somehow less human, less deserving of the right to walk, work, attend school, be in public, where the racist is somehow inconvenienced by the fear the presence of the offending group arouses. It's about one group having the absolute right to assert its power over another group.

These same qualities that underlie racism and rape are also the foundational core ideas and values of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.
Which is why it is valid and essential to attack Islam for its role just as we have and should continue to attack the RCC. The difference is that Outside of Israel, and some localized pockets in the US South, these evils of Judaism and Christianity have been watered down by Centuries of secular society. That is far less true in the Muslim nations where the racist, misogynist, and rapist values of Islam are dominate the culture at large.