What is worse, racism or rape?

[ronburgundy]

Kinda interesting how no one had a problem identifying Catholic (male) priests as the perpetrators in the child rape scandal a few years ago in the Catholic Church. It didn't even come up that we should refer to it as a general "man thing", rather than a "Catholic man thing". But if Muslim men do the same thing?.... Its "nothing to see here"

It never was a 'Catholic male' thing. It was a 'Catholic priest' thing in the press. People weren't ranting on and on about the threat of catholics raping children. It was about Catholic Priests abusing children and the church systematically covering it.

And it was and still is wrong to deny the massive role that Catholicism as an ideology and the rank and file Catholics played in all of that. The inherently abusive authoritarianism that defined Catholicism was a central aspect of the actions and their cover up, with countless nuns, church workers, and parents of the abused helping in the cover up out of obedience that the religion demands.
Most Catholics have moved onto blind worship of the evil piece of shit who is the current pope continues to abuse the abused and oversee the shifting of assets so that the church cannot be sued. That is the result of the core teachings of the Church, and these continued abuses are being ignored by the media and most Catholics precisely because Catholicism itself was never attacked like it should have been. Instead, anyone that tried to do, like Richard Dawkins, was attacked as extremist. Now, hilariously, those who attacked him are attacking him as Islamophobic and lying that he has never gone after Christians the same way, when he did and they attacked him for it.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Let me ask you a question. Which of the following do you think that rapists are most motivated by, religion, race, culture, politics, or lust and objectification of humans?

The exploitation of the girls in Rotherham wasn't perpetrated because of

A very corrupt set of ideas. Anyone of any race can hold those ideas, so it isn't race. Culture and religion are ideas inside the head of a person. It is those ideas.

There are men who feel lust but don't rape. I'd dare say that there are many men like that. In fact I'd go so far as to say that many men who feel lust find rape so abhorrent that we actually have laws against rape. There are those who have ideas in their heads that excuse rape, and those ideas can be in a person of any race. So it isn't race.

The religion and the culture are very tied to each other, it is very difficult to separate them. This is a religious-cultural set of ideas that encourages objectification of others for the purpose of satisfying lust without regard for the other person, or to use satisfaction of lust to harm the other person. These rape gangs are exploitive individuals because of the religious-cultural ideas they held. Being in a vulnerable situation is not an excuse though. A woman can pass out naked and drunk in the middle of the street, and while she is particularly vulnerable to rape under those circumstances it is still wrong to do it. While it is wise to say "don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation" it doesn't mean someone in that situation deserved it. These gangs apparently believe someone who is vulnerable deserves it, especially since their beliefs assign a lower value to both women and Kafir, and these girls are both.

I'm glad the SJWs finally found a way to address it, because it needs to be addressed. But it is rather disgusting that they had to describe it as an issue of misogyny only and not talk about religion (which they wrongly think is a race) in order to do so.

 

[abaddon]

If the problem's more basic than "It's a religious-cultural context" and is actually objectification of kids and women (regardless of whatever the ideas within whichever context serve to justify the objectification), then objectification is the more accurate diagnosis. And with that, one can make a more accurate prescription.

"Islam" and "religious-cultural context" are not descriptive, it's just the babble of persons engaged in inter-sectarian squabbling. If the problem is some people are assholes, then say what it is to be an asshole ("you objectify people and it betrays a weakness in you") and also what it is to not be an asshole ("psychologically strong persons don't objectify people but play a more honorable role of being protectors of the vulnerable").

The cultural context is too vague to be the problem. So I would suggest vilifying the problem instead of the context. And there are other contexts, so (if a war of ideas can really work to diminish rape) then this prescription's not just for rapey Muslims but rapey males generally.

 

[Toni]

Let me ask you a question. Which of the following do you think that rapists are most motivated by, religion, race, culture, politics, or lust and objectification of humans?

The exploitation of the girls in Rotherham wasn't perpetrated because of

A very corrupt set of ideas. Anyone of any race can hold those ideas, so it isn't race. Culture and religion are ideas inside the head of a person. It is those ideas.

There are men who feel lust but don't rape. I'd dare say that there are many men like that. In fact I'd go so far as to say that many men who feel lust find rape so abhorrent that we actually have laws against rape. There are those who have ideas in their heads that excuse rape, and those ideas can be in a person of any race. So it isn't race.

The religion and the culture are very tied to each other, it is very difficult to separate them. This is a religious-cultural set of ideas that encourages objectification of others for the purpose of satisfying lust without regard for the other person, or to use satisfaction of lust to harm the other person. These rape gangs are exploitive individuals because of the religious-cultural ideas they held. Being in a vulnerable situation is not an excuse though. A woman can pass out naked and drunk in the middle of the street, and while she is particularly vulnerable to rape under those circumstances it is still wrong to do it. While it is wise to say "don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation" it doesn't mean someone in that situation deserved it. These gangs apparently believe someone who is vulnerable deserves it, especially since their beliefs assign a lower value to both women and Kafir, and these girls are both.

I'm glad the SJWs finally found a way to address it, because it needs to be addressed. But it is rather disgusting that they had to describe it as an issue of misogyny only and not talk about religion (which they wrongly think is a race) in order to do so.

Except in scale, how is what happened in this instance different than those high school football players who gang raped that girl who was passed out drunk and videotaped it?

I don't think it is religion. I know a fair number of Muslim people and used to work in a workplace where the majority of co-workers were Muslim--and from developing countries. They would find such behavior as this to be abhorrent, and anti-Islam in the extreme. It's not the religion.

What I believe is that people--individually and in groups--develop cultural norms and religious interpretations that allow some people to feel they are justified in having and exercising power over people they can identify as 'other' by race, gender, religion, class, caste, etc. , even in horrific ways. Religion and culture are excuses, that's all.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Jason Harvestdancer nailed this squarely on the head. Very well stated indeed.

Except in scale, how is what happened in this instance different than those high school football players who gang raped that girl who was passed out drunk and videotaped it?

Both are products of culture. Machismo rapey misogynist frat boy culture is something to be condemned. So is Islamic inspired rapey misogynist culture. Lets condemn them both and call them out for what they are. Lets not make excuses for the former due to money or connections, and don't lets not make excuses for the latter because people confuse Islam for a race.

I don't think it is religion. I know a fair number of Muslim people and used to work in a workplace where the majority of co-workers were Muslim--and from developing countries. They would find such behavior as this to be abhorrent, and anti-Islam in the extreme. It's not the religion.

It is religion, at least in part. Just because there are Muslims you know who are not caught up in rapey Islamic inspired misogynist culture, doesn't mean that culture doesn't exist, and doesn't mean the religion isn't a big part of it. It is. Just because some Muslims are tamed, does't mean they all are and doesn't mean Islam isn't a problem. Same goes for Christianity, though more of them tend to be tamed these days (wasn't always the case).

What I believe is that people--individually and in groups--develop cultural norms and religious interpretations that allow some people to feel they are justified in having and exercising power over people they can identify as 'other' by race, gender, religion, class, caste, etc. , even in horrific ways.

That is certainly true.

Religion and culture are excuses

yes.

, that's all.

No. Religion and culture are more than just excuses (though they certainly are used as that). They are also both catalysts and causes of these problems. Few atheists care about homosexuality. That bigotry comes from religion. Religion also constantly beats the drum against women, right down to virgin births (because the birth canal is unclean you see).

 

[Toni]

It is religion, at least in part. Just because there are Muslims you know who are not caught up in rapey Islamic inspired misogynist culture, doesn't mean that culture doesn't exist, and doesn't mean the religion isn't a big part of it. It is. Just because some Muslims are tamed, does't mean they all are and doesn't mean Islam isn't a problem. Same goes for Christianity, though more of them tend to be tamed these days (wasn't always the case).

The fuck you say.

No. Religion and culture are more than just excuses (though they certainly are used as that). They are also both catalysts and causes of these problems. Few atheists care about homosexuality. That bigotry comes from religion. Religion also constantly beats the drum against women, right down to virgin births (because the birth canal is unclean you see).

Then what on earth is your excuse for your bigotry?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The fuck you say.

The fuck I do. The fuck you don't. So fuck you. Fuck. Fuckity fuck fuck. And also fuck.

Then what on earth is your excuse for your bigotry?

What bigotry would that be? That I see that religion, and right now especially Islam, is part of what's causing and catalyzing anti-liberal and bigoted sentiments? Why do you defend such bigotry?

Oh and also Fuck. You taught me a new bad word. What fucking fun.

 

[zorq]

You realize that that isn't an article in the Guardian, right?. It is an opinion column. You know, the place where people write all kinds of shit that the publication doesn't necessarily endorse but does think people will want to read.

You do realize that an opinion piece is not a comment thread? They are written either by permanent opinion page writers, the editorial board collectively or specifically invited guest writers.

When a publication broadcasts two completely opposite viewpoints in its opinion section, as many often do, which one do you suppose is the one approved of by the publication?

It is foolish to confuse the opinion columns with the editorial columns.

 

[whichphilosophy]

You do realize that an opinion piece is not a comment thread? They are written either by permanent opinion page writers, the editorial board collectively or specifically invited guest writers.

When a publication broadcasts two completely opposite viewpoints in its opinion section, as many often do, which one do you suppose is the one approved of by the publication?

It is foolish to confuse the opinion columns with the editorial columns.

Don't you mean confuse opinion columns with conjecture columns

 

[Tigers!]

Now, now. Before this thread gets out of hand, let's all take a breath and find a way to blame the rape gangs on white men.

The Crusades Tom, the Crusades.

Those dead white males have a lot to answer for.

 

[Toni]

The fuck I do. The fuck you don't. So fuck you. Fuck. Fuckity fuck fuck. And also fuck.

Then what on earth is your excuse for your bigotry?

What bigotry would that be? That I see that religion, and right now especially Islam, is part of what's causing and catalyzing anti-liberal and bigoted sentiments? Why do you defend such bigotry?

Oh and also Fuck. You taught me a new bad word. What fucking fun.

If religion were the problem, then atheists would not be bigots, racists or misogynists and we all know that's not true.

It isn't religion. Religion is just a convenient excuse to codify misogyny and bigotry. And atheism is being used here to justify a different kind of bigotry.

Neither religion or atheism are inherently bigoted or misogynistic, but bigoted and misogynistic practitioners bring their mindsets to their 'philosophy.'

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Except in scale, how is what happened in this instance different than those high school football players who gang raped that girl who was passed out drunk and videotaped it?

Those football players exist within a larger culture that condemns their actions. There are subcultures in the US that hold similar low values with regards to the individual, but the larger culture disapproves. It is equally wrong, but in the larger culture there is active condemnation of the football players.

 

[Elixir]

Except in scale, how is what happened in this instance different than those high school football players who gang raped that girl who was passed out drunk and videotaped it?

Those football players exist within a larger culture that condemns their actions. There are subcultures in the US that hold similar low values with regards to the individual, but the larger culture disapproves. It is equally wrong, but in the larger culture there is active condemnation of the football players.

GO BRONCOS!
</active condemnation>

 

[Toni]

Except in scale, how is what happened in this instance different than those high school football players who gang raped that girl who was passed out drunk and videotaped it?

Those football players exist within a larger culture that condemns their actions. There are subcultures in the US that hold similar low values with regards to the individual, but the larger culture disapproves. It is equally wrong, but in the larger culture there is active condemnation of the football players.

Eh, I don't agree that the larger culture disapproves (unless it is their daughter/sister). Lots and lots and lots of cases of athletes at all levels escaping convictions for gang rapes, especially if the girl/woman in question is drunk. And plenty of cases are not even charged.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I won't say that our culture is perfect, and there are too many people who are rich and/or famous that get away with it, but it is still true that the ideas that comprise US culture are much more disapproving of perpetrating rape than the ideas that compromise Islamic culture.

 

[LordKiran]

Kinda interesting how no one had a problem identifying Catholic (male) priests as the perpetrators in the child rape scandal a few years ago in the Catholic Church. It didn't even come up that we should refer to it as a general "man thing", rather than a "Catholic man thing". But if Muslim men do the same thing?.... Its "nothing to see here"

The catholic priest rapes were doubly bad because they were covered up illegally by the church. See the church is a formal organization with a discrete head and administrative apparatus whom acted together as a formal organization to cover up crimes commited by its members. In this regard, the church is not much different from a southern police department.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes, the Guardian actually asked that question.

No, an opinion columnist asked that question. And it was a RHETORICAL question, based on his reaction to:

those – mainly men – who seemed intent on turning the rape of girls into a minor skirmish in the great war on imperialism, talking only of rightwing racism, not rape. Having been raped and abused, disempowered and exploited, were these survivors now going to be written out of their own story?​

In other words, he's complaining that some political commentators are making this more about racism, Islam, bigotry or social issues than about the sexual abuse of women. Which, if you had actually read past the first paragraph and taken in the entire article, probably would have been more apparent.

Social Justice has gotten us to this point.

This has literally fuckall to do with social justice.

 

[Toni]

I won't say that our culture is perfect, and there are too many people who are rich and/or famous that get away with it, but it is still true that the ideas that comprise US culture are much more disapproving of perpetrating rape than the ideas that compromise Islamic culture.

You write that as though you believed that there is a single monolithic Islamic culture. Or that you don't realize that Islam shares the same Abrahamic roots as Judaism and Christianity.

Where, exactly, do you believe religion comes from?


People are much more alike than they are different. Religion isn't the root cause or even the proximal cause of bigotry and misogyny.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The age of consent in England and Wales is 16.
The UK's Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority (CICA) reportedly refused to pay her compensation claiming she consented. The convicted rapist is already serving 35 years for his crimes so it is puzzling why CICA made such a decision.


The victim was raped at 14 for even if she consented, she is regarded as a minor, such consent is void.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-consent-government-cica-sammy-a7941326.html

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I won't say that our culture is perfect, and there are too many people who are rich and/or famous that get away with it, but it is still true that the ideas that comprise US culture are much more disapproving of perpetrating rape than the ideas that compromise Islamic culture.

You write that as though you believed that there is a single monolithic Islamic culture. Or that you don't realize that Islam shares the same Abrahamic roots as Judaism and Christianity.

Where, exactly, do you believe religion comes from?


People are much more alike than they are different. Religion isn't the root cause or even the proximal cause of bigotry and misogyny.

Of course religion comes from people, and that herring is nice and red now. Yes, Islam is an Abrahamic religion, but it is not identical to the other Abrahamic religions otherwise it would be one of the other Abrahamic religions.

Yes, religion is a proximal cause. There exists scripture that is pretty explicit on topics of gender and how to treat people outside the faith. Many religions have scriptures that make similar comments, but among the worst is the way the scripture that is key to Islam comments on these issues. The religion is very tied to the culture, and while not all people of the faith share the abhorrent views, just as Christians eat shellfish, there is definitely a religious basis that supports the views. When you grow up learning that it is acceptable to abuse "the other", you then have the idea in your head that it is acceptable to abuse "the other."