What is worse, racism or rape?

[whichphilosophy]

.............
If it were not "religion" that evolved to promote bigotry, it would have been something else.

Possibly but today, and in the past, religion has promoted bigotry and hatred.

To be a bit 'finicky. I would say that people have used religion to promote bigotry and hatred. Religion is a means of shepherding whole sections of the population. Nowadays politics has replaced religions in some societies.

 

[skepticalbip]

Possibly but today, and in the past, religion has promoted bigotry and hatred.

To be a bit 'finicky. I would say that people have used religion to promote bigotry and hatred. Religion is a means of shepherding whole sections of the population. Nowadays politics has replaced religions in some societies.

Good point.

Certainly, religion isn't the only organization of people that promotes hatred and bigotry... it is only one of them. Today, especially in the U.S., political parties are promoting it to energize their base. Civil political discussions are becoming almost impossible. Today, just the word Republican will raise the hackles of many Democrats and just the word Democrat will raise the hackles of many Republicans.

 

[whichphilosophy]

To be a bit 'finicky. I would say that people have used religion to promote bigotry and hatred. Religion is a means of shepherding whole sections of the population. Nowadays politics has replaced religions in some societies.

Good point.

Certainly, religion isn't the only organization of people that promotes hatred and bigotry... it is only one of them. Today, especially in the U.S., political parties are promoting it to energize their base. Civil political discussions are becoming almost impossible. Today, just the word Republican will raise the hackles of many Democrats and just the word Democrat will raise the hackles of many Republicans.

Lenin called it the 'the opium of the people'

While some Marxist states discouraged religion or drove it underground, the Chinese government formed its own Christian Church. It banned many others and now says Christianity (the Chinese way) expanded under communism. Here is one wad of millions of voters who serve the state.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The argument is that religion is simply an excuse for bigotry that would have occurred in the absence of religion. Hence your entire response is based on a misunderstanding and is completely off point.

Bullshit.

Religion in many cases creates, unifies, and leads bigotry and hatred. Why else would a group of Semites almost universally dislike another group of Semites?

Why does a group of ANYTHING universally despise another group? History, tradition, and long-held grudges are almost always involved. Religion is usually just the background music to all of that.

 

[Toni]

...belief in the bigotries of the scriptures is primarily NOT the product of already holding those bigotries.

Right - as you indicated but didn't say, it's the product of PARENTS holding to those bigotries.

Now wait a minute. Offspring are not obligated to follow the patterns of their parents and embrace bigotry because their parents did so.

And I disagree with ron: belief in the bigotries in any scripture IS primarily the product of already holding these bigotries.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

.............
If it were not "religion" that evolved to promote bigotry, it would have been something else.

Possibly but today, and in the past, religion has promoted bigotry and hatred.

"Religion" doesn't promote anything at all because it doesn't exist in the absence of religious people.

In saying "religious people" promote bigotry and hatred you are implying that those people would not be bigots or hateful if they were not religious. THAT is a claim that does not bear close scrutiny; in almost every case, their bigotry is based on some specific grievance that may or may not also be an ancient one. Muslims don't hate Jews because of the Quran, they hate Jews because of the fighting over the Temple Mount, the battles in Palestine, their regional and economic rivalries in the past and present, prior to which they actually got along relatively well. Christians do not hate Muslims because they're heathens, they hate them because a bunch of pissed off Muslims blew up the world trade center and whacko fringe Muslims have been poking the dragon ever since.

 

[Toni]

The argument is that religion is simply an excuse for bigotry that would have occurred in the absence of religion. Hence your entire response is based on a misunderstanding and is completely off point.

Bullshit.

Religion in many cases creates, unifies, and leads bigotry and hatred. Why else would a group of Semites almost universally dislike another group of Semites?

Tribal rivalry/warfare. One group has something the other group wants and vice versa. Could be a material resource, could be something symbolic.

The Salem witch trials were mostly about grabbing wealth of others, with an invented justification couched in religion. It was truly only greed, made successful by preying on superstition.

This is not different than what led people to believe that it was ok to enslave some people, to steal land and other resources and sometimes enslave other people, and so on.

Oh, people will dress it up as their Gods ordain their right to (do whatever) to justify their grab of land, gold, women, water, cattle, whatever is desired because the victim is not favored by god, doesn't know or understand god, must be brought to heel by God, etc.

The motivation is not God or religion. It's greed.

 

[Toni]

.............
If it were not "religion" that evolved to promote bigotry, it would have been something else.

Possibly but today, and in the past, religion has promoted bigotry and hatred.

And also the opposite: acceptance, and love and peace.

It's what is in the hearts and minds of practitioners. This holds true of any means of any kind of governance. Or haven't you read Animal Farm?

Seriously, I always pick on China because it's just such an obvious example to refute the notion that religion is the root of bigotry or sexism or misogyny or whatever evil you wish to choose.

 

[Toni]

Good point.

Certainly, religion isn't the only organization of people that promotes hatred and bigotry... it is only one of them. Today, especially in the U.S., political parties are promoting it to energize their base. Civil political discussions are becoming almost impossible. Today, just the word Republican will raise the hackles of many Democrats and just the word Democrat will raise the hackles of many Republicans.

Lenin called it the 'the opium of the people'

And we all know what a swell guy Lenin was. [Fe E]Truly he had humanity's best interests at heart! [/Fe E]

 

[bilby]

Lenin called it the 'the opium of the people'

And we all know what a swell guy Lenin was. [Fe E]Truly he had humanity's best interests at heart! [/Fe E]

What's "Fe E"? Presumably the typical Polynesian octopus isn't a Leninist - at least not as far as I know. That's the only meaning of Fe'e I am aware of...

 

[DrZoidberg]

Good point.

Certainly, religion isn't the only organization of people that promotes hatred and bigotry... it is only one of them. Today, especially in the U.S., political parties are promoting it to energize their base. Civil political discussions are becoming almost impossible. Today, just the word Republican will raise the hackles of many Democrats and just the word Democrat will raise the hackles of many Republicans.

Lenin called it the 'the opium of the people'

While some Marxist states discouraged religion or drove it underground, the Chinese government formed its own Christian Church. It banned many others and now says Christianity (the Chinese way) expanded under communism. Here is one wad of millions of voters who serve the state.

It's not a Lenin quote. It's a Marx quote. And it's not even a quote. It's a paraphrase. The original quote is actually really good.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people

I think it is a very good, thoughtful and non-polemical summary of religion. He's not saying that religion acts as a numbing agent. Or even addictive. When he wrote it we didn't have the War on Drugs. Opium was seen as a harmless diversion at that time. But still a waste of time. He means that we've convinced ourselves we need religion even though it adds nothing.

It could be compared to somebody playing World of Warcraft and who is more focused on how to progress in the computer game world, than fixing their shit in the real world. He thinks being religious is spending our lives on petty diversions, wasting our time and our lives. He's not saying that life without religion will be more fun. Just that it will be more spiritually fulfilling. Which I think is something that can be successfully argued.

The quote is lifted from this passage, which is also very good. Gives context.

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

And we all know what a swell guy Lenin was. [Fe E]Truly he had humanity's best interests at heart! [/Fe E]

What's "Fe E"? Presumably the typical Polynesian octopus isn't a Leninist - at least not as far as I know. That's the only meaning of Fe'e I am aware of...

Periodic table.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

There's no element E on the periodic table. It's ironic that your explanation makes it less understandable.

 

[repoman]

Iron E --- Irony

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Iron E --- Irony

Son of a...

Lenin called it the 'the opium of the people'

And we all know what a swell guy Lenin was. [Fe E]Truly he had humanity's best interests at heart! [/Fe E]

 

[RavenSky]

Right - as you indicated but didn't say, it's the product of PARENTS holding to those bigotries.

Now wait a minute. Offspring are not obligated to follow the patterns of their parents and embrace bigotry because their parents did so.

And I disagree with ron: belief in the bigotries in any scripture IS primarily the product of already holding these bigotries.

Yes and no...

Toni, while I fully agree with your overall premise that religion is not the cause of bigotries, but rather the excuse for them... I disagree that "belief in the bigotries in any scripture IS primarily the product of already holding these bigotries."

Babies are not born bigoted. Nor are they born religious. They learn both of these things from their parents and/or, more broadly, the communities they are raised in.

Some people are able to see past the indoctrination at some point in their lives. The majority of us here have been through that process as to religion, and very often as to bigotry as well.

I think that religion does reflect the bigotries of the people shaping the religions, and I think that to the extent people choose their religion they will gravitate to the religion that best reflects their own beliefs.

That said, I also think that most people are not critical thinkers. They will reflect back the norms of their community - be it shaped by time in history, religion, or any other factor.

As to misogyny and rape, though - that is just predators using whatever excuses they have at hand to do what they would do anyway.

 

[RavenSky]

Iron E --- Irony

And we all know what a swell guy Lenin was. [Fe E]Truly he had humanity's best interests at heart! [/Fe E]

very clever!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

As to misogyny and rape, though - that is just predators using whatever excuses they have at hand to do what they would do anyway.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Yes, upbringing and culture shapes people's views and that manifests in the religions they choose to follow or the sect within religions that they choose to identify as. One Muslim will view Islam a little differently than another and one Christian will view Christianity so different from another that he will call the other a non-christian.

But, religion does shape behaviour, from diet rules to dress rules to bigotry. People don't become Jews because they want to chop penises or become muslims because they hate the taste of bacon. They get this from religion, and a lot of religion also makes them more bigoted and misogynist than they may otherwise be.

 

[TSwizzle]

But, religion does shape behaviour, from diet rules to dress rules to bigotry. People don't become Jews because they want to chop penises or become muslims because they hate the taste of bacon. They get this from religion, and a lot of religion also makes them more bigoted and misogynist than they may otherwise be.

Indeed. Religion has the ability to make people do things they wouldn't ordinarily do.