What my female senior executive boss told me today

[laughing dog]

I guess not, but if a horrible male boss were to be called a vulgar name nobody would cry "sexism".

Not true.

Gender equality means that women can be just as horrible as men and it is not sexism to point that out, even if using colorful language.

Even when a specific co-worker is female a stupid insult directed at her is not necessarily sexist. Just like a similar insult against a specific male co-worker would not be.

Calling a woman a "bitch" is sexist. It really is that simple.

Am I wrong about much laxer office dress codes when it comes to women for example? Yoga pants and no neck chokers - sounds pretty good to me!

Dress codes are laxer for everyone.

 

[Derec]

Which definition of "bitch" does not imply female?

What definition of "dick" doesn't imply male?

I'm not sure we are working in the same society. Name calling is never okay.

Yet women are never called out when they say things like "all men are pigs".

Who the hell is Hildebeest? I think there is some serious head canon going on in this reality.

It's a nickname for Hillary. You've never heard it?

Yes, that's why my female workers make 30% less than what I make for the same job.

Women do not make 30% less doing the same job. That is a nasty myth unfortunately perpetuated by the media and politicians.
The figure comes from comparing overall earnings and does not take into account education, experience, the actual job worked, hours worked etc.

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Calling a woman a "bitch" is sexist. It really is that simple.

Not if she deserves it. Saying "all women are bitches" would be sexist though, just like "all men are pigs".

Dress codes are laxer for everyone.

I can't wear exercise pants with an elastic band to work. Women can.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I guess not, but if a horrible male boss were to be called a vulgar name nobody would cry "sexism". But if a horrible female boss is called a vulgar name there are definite calls of sexism.
Gender equality means that women can be just as horrible as men and it is not sexism to point that out, even if using colorful language.

So your beef is that a man being called a dick is rarely brought up as sexist, but a woman being called a bitch is. I'm curious how often such things are brought up around you. I cannot believe the last time I heard a woman called a "bitch" or worse was called out as sexist. Neither for a man. And as I have pointed out before I work with a lot of female athletes who regularly spew out sexist crap (both against men and women). I don't use such terms in my dealings with them or at work because it is unprofessional, and the term "micromanager" tends to be more potent.

There is a real difference between a stupid insulting generalization and a stupid insult to a specific co-worker.

Even when a specific co-worker is female a stupid insult directed at her is not necessarily sexist. Just like a similar insult against a specific male co-worker would not be.

What horrible place do you work where people regularly insult one another? You know there are better cultures out there?

Drawing conclusions from isolated anecdotes is not a particularly valid method for making an argument. Especially when it is clear you don't know wtf you are talking about.

Am I wrong about much laxer office dress codes when it comes to women for example? Yoga pants and no neck chokers - sounds pretty good to me!

Have you asked to change the dress code or re-write the dress code? In case you didn't know, most positions have very lax dress codes for men, BUT men's fashion rules are far more strict and men are a lot more judgmental. If you want to be a CEO, you must dress the part. (Did you visit styleforum like I told you?)

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I'm not sure we are working in the same society. Name calling is never okay.

Yet women are never called out when they say things like "all men are pigs".

You hear this a lot in you world? I don't usually call out racists when they say stupid shit either. I choose my battles but will sometimes open the discussion.

Who the hell is Hildebeest? I think there is some serious head canon going on in this reality.

It's a nickname for Hillary. You've never heard it?

No, I am not obsessed with her.

Yes, that's why my female workers make 30% less than what I make for the same job.

Women do not make 30% less doing the same job.That is a nasty myth unfortunately perpetuated by the media and politicians.

I have the salary reports for my work group. I negotiated coming into this position.

Dress codes are laxer for everyone.

I can't wear exercise pants with an elastic band to work. Women can.

If it upsets you, you'll need to talk to HR about that one.

 

[laughing dog]

Not if she deserves it.

No one deserves it.

I can't wear exercise pants with an elastic band to work. Women can.

Talk to hr. Maybe there is a good reason for that, maybe not.

 

[fromderinside]

Yesterday, I started a new job (a promotion to a different Australian government Department -- yay me!).

Today, I met my boss's boss's boss. To put it into perspective, I am at the top level of the 'ordinary' public service grade (called APS), my line manager is executive level 1 (EL1) , above him is the executive level 2, and above EL2 is the first rank of senior executive service (SES band 1), so this was my first contact with a senior executive in the organisation who is directly above me in the chain of command and will have significant power, if she chooses, over my future prospects in the Department.

Literally, quite literally, the first words out of her mouth were an unveiled jab at my gender and the gender composition of my team. "Hi, the latest addition...to this all-male team. We'll have to see what we can do about that". For context, I work in a small team of five people, all of whom were selected because we have extensive data analysis and evaluation experience, and not because we had penises.

What would you do if you were in my position?

Take the nearest team member's penis and put in your mouth so you can't be heard. She has every right as a 5%er to jab. If the jab makes you wince with fear. Good. You're now feeling what she felt though her career.

 

[fromderinside]

I think it would be more accurate to say, and I think what you actually meant, was that most of the PC Nazis won't bother to correct someone who's being non-PC as long as the victim of the oppression is one of the oppressors....

I think the one-sidedness is one of the defining characteristics of actually existing political correctness.

So tell your buds who are sitting on that steel frame to quit whistling at young women as they pass by. Like I told Metaphor, Suck it up. Put the nearest one in your mouth and shut the ef up wuss.

Its a real (men would say man's) world out there and you need a at least an onion skin of resistance to being 'insulted' as you so commonly insult. Turning things around expect from those you fuck over being fucked over.

I get all weepie that you go pee pee every time you find an excuse to complain about unfairness to men. I'm one and I don't appreciate your whining.

 

[Toni]

Yesterday, I started a new job (a promotion to a different Australian government Department -- yay me!).

Today, I met my boss's boss's boss. To put it into perspective, I am at the top level of the 'ordinary' public service grade (called APS), my line manager is executive level 1 (EL1) , above him is the executive level 2, and above EL2 is the first rank of senior executive service (SES band 1), so this was my first contact with a senior executive in the organisation who is directly above me in the chain of command and will have significant power, if she chooses, over my future prospects in the Department.

Literally, quite literally, the first words out of her mouth were an unveiled jab at my gender and the gender composition of my team. "Hi, the latest addition...to this all-male team. We'll have to see what we can do about that". For context, I work in a small team of five people, all of whom were selected because we have extensive data analysis and evaluation experience, and not because we had penises.

What would you do if you were in my position?

A good job.

Beyond that, learn as much as possible, get as much experience as possible and be worth more than you are paid. A good executive wants people who makes his/her job easier, just because they showed up for work. If you find yourself working for a bad executive, consider it tuition and use your newly gained education to get a better job, someplace else.

This is the best advice. If you are in a position where you find you must pursue action against any higher up, being extremely good at your job is the best position to work from.

I have a question--and it's a straight question, with no hidden agenda:

If your boss's boss's boss was male and made the same remark, would you have felt the same response?

 

[Toni]

Yes, that's why my female workers make 30% less than what I make for the same job.

Women do not make 30% less doing the same job. That is a nasty myth unfortunately perpetuated by the media and politicians.
The figure comes from comparing overall earnings and does not take into account education, experience, the actual job worked, hours worked etc.

How do you know what is true for that particular case?

In fact, women do earn less, on average, than men with the exact same qualifications and education performing the same job.

I can't wear exercise pants with an elastic band to work. Women can.

I read the link you posted. You may not be aware, but different types of jobs and workplaces have different dress codes. In my job and anywhere at my employer, yoga pants would not be allowed for any job classification for anybody, period.

If I worked in a more creative based industry, such as was in the article you linked, they might be considered ok or even expected.

I would look pretty silly in most work places dressed the way I do for my job but it's expected, customary, usual and most of all: safe for my workplace.

 

[Achwienichtig]

A while back, a female coworker of mine confided in me that she felt discriminated against. For, you see, she was obese, and she was specifically told no sweat pants at work. A certain other female got hired, one with a generous endowment and few bounds to spare. Somehow, the manager failed to pass along the dress code to the new employee.

The moral of the story is, just because women can get away with dressing down, that doesn't indicate that they are being privileged. It's just as likely that it advances the male conception of female sexuality, which is summed up in two words: sex object. Don't get me wrong. I know a few women who use this to their advantage. They've got it, so they flaunt it. But that doesn't change the fact that it is men who create that situation, not women.

 

[credoconsolans]

The OP reminds me of this feminist classic:

View attachment 3424

Said no woman ever.

Yet plenty of women try to get into these fields and get nothing but grief from the men.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Women do not make 30% less doing the same job. That is a nasty myth unfortunately perpetuated by the media and politicians.
The figure comes from comparing overall earnings and does not take into account education, experience, the actual job worked, hours worked etc.

How do you know what is true for that particular case?

In fact, women do earn less, on average, than men with the exact same qualifications and education performing the same job.

1) Even if true this does not rebut his claim that the 30% number is bogus. The actual number is 2% but even that is suspect.

2) Once you control for the factors that we can measure the difference drops from 29% to 2%. Note that that does not mean there still is a difference--the far more likely hypothesis is that there are factors that aren't as easy to measure. A simple look at the workplace shows this--fathers are more willing to accept out of town assignments than mothers. Does this make a difference? Almost certainly. Can we measure it? To date I haven't heard of anyone having done so. Thus the difference, if it exists at all, is certainly less than 2%.

 

[Toni]

How do you know what is true for that particular case?

In fact, women do earn less, on average, than men with the exact same qualifications and education performing the same job.

1) Even if true this does not rebut his claim that the 30% number is bogus. The actual number is 2% but even that is suspect.

2) Once you control for the factors that we can measure the difference drops from 29% to 2%. Note that that does not mean there still is a difference--the far more likely hypothesis is that there are factors that aren't as easy to measure. A simple look at the workplace shows this--fathers are more willing to accept out of town assignments than mothers. Does this make a difference? Almost certainly. Can we measure it? To date I haven't heard of anyone having done so. Thus the difference, if it exists at all, is certainly less than 2%.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf

 

[laughing dog]

How do you know what is true for that particular case?

In fact, women do earn less, on average, than men with the exact same qualifications and education performing the same job.

1) Even if true this does not rebut his claim that the 30% number is bogus.

Derec specifically claimed that women do not make 30% less than men doing the same job. If it is true in Nice Squirrel's case, then there are women do make 30% less then men doing the same job which rebut's Derec's claim.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Yesterday, I started a new job (a promotion to a different Australian government Department -- yay me!).

Today, I met my boss's boss's boss. To put it into perspective, I am at the top level of the 'ordinary' public service grade (called APS), my line manager is executive level 1 (EL1) , above him is the executive level 2, and above EL2 is the first rank of senior executive service (SES band 1), so this was my first contact with a senior executive in the organisation who is directly above me in the chain of command and will have significant power, if she chooses, over my future prospects in the Department.

Literally, quite literally, the first words out of her mouth were an unveiled jab at my gender and the gender composition of my team. "Hi, the latest addition...to this all-male team. We'll have to see what we can do about that". For context, I work in a small team of five people, all of whom were selected because we have extensive data analysis and evaluation experience, and not because we had penises.

What would you do if you were in my position?

Work productively to achieve results.
Depending on how it comes across I would not be too bothered about such statements unless these were repeated and there were events that seem detrimental.

 

[Metaphor]

She may be aware of diversity issues within the organization that you are not. Personally, I would have replied something along the likes of: "I agree that diversity is an important strength no department should be without if it can be avoided. I look forward to working with anyone qualified for inclusion in the team."

But I don't say what I don't believe, and I don't believe that 'gender diversity' is a strength in and of itself, nor do I believe the public service in Australia is lacking in gender diversity.

What I do believe is that people should be judged on their merits and not their genitals.

 

[Metaphor]

Take the nearest team member's penis and put in your mouth so you can't be heard.

It may surprise you that even though I am a faggot, I don't desire to take every single man's penis into my mouth. But, why is it you think I should not be heard?

She has every right as a 5%er to jab.

What's a 5%er? Is it someone who has made it into a senior executive position but has no regard for her subordinates?

If the jab makes you wince with fear. Good. You're now feeling what she felt though her career.

Why would you regard it as 'good' that people are subjected to blood libel?

 

[Metaphor]

A good job.

Beyond that, learn as much as possible, get as much experience as possible and be worth more than you are paid. A good executive wants people who makes his/her job easier, just because they showed up for work. If you find yourself working for a bad executive, consider it tuition and use your newly gained education to get a better job, someplace else.

This is the best advice. If you are in a position where you find you must pursue action against any higher up, being extremely good at your job is the best position to work from.

I have a question--and it's a straight question, with no hidden agenda:

If your boss's boss's boss was male and made the same remark, would you have felt the same response?

If the senior executive had been male, and was talking about what he could do about an 'all male team', I think I'd feel exactly the same -- bewildered that that was literally the first sentence out of his mouth upon being introduced to me, and worried that his judgment seemed predicated on irrelevancies like gender, instead of merit.

 

[Metaphor]

I read the link you posted. You may not be aware, but different types of jobs and workplaces have different dress codes. In my job and anywhere at my employer, yoga pants would not be allowed for any job classification for anybody, period.

On my last day at my previous job, I wore trackie dacks. Nobody said anything, which makes me think I could've worn trackie dacks every day for the last five years.

We build cages for ourselves.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I won't post private names but this is the breakdown of the publicly available data of my workgroup I am not a supervisor nor have any extra duties or responsibilities:

Squirrel = 60k
Male 1 = 43k
Female 1 = 34k
Female 2 = 38k
Female 3 = 35k

You folks who don't want to believe this can just go on believing I am making things up.