What my female senior executive boss told me today

[whichphilosophy]

Yesterday, I started a new job (a promotion to a different Australian government Department -- yay me!).

Today, I met my boss's boss's boss. To put it into perspective, I am at the top level of the 'ordinary' public service grade (called APS), my line manager is executive level 1 (EL1) , above him is the executive level 2, and above EL2 is the first rank of senior executive service (SES band 1), so this was my first contact with a senior executive in the organisation who is directly above me in the chain of command and will have significant power, if she chooses, over my future prospects in the Department.

Literally, quite literally, the first words out of her mouth were an unveiled jab at my gender and the gender composition of my team. "Hi, the latest addition...to this all-male team. We'll have to see what we can do about that". For context, I work in a small team of five people, all of whom were selected because we have extensive data analysis and evaluation experience, and not because we had penises.

What would you do if you were in my position?

Looking at this again, was this a jab at your gender or could she be simply be concerned no women have joined. I don't think her concern would be wanting a penis because everyone else has one.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yesterday, I started a new job (a promotion to a different Australian government Department -- yay me!).

Today, I met my boss's boss's boss. To put it into perspective, I am at the top level of the 'ordinary' public service grade (called APS), my line manager is executive level 1 (EL1) , above him is the executive level 2, and above EL2 is the first rank of senior executive service (SES band 1), so this was my first contact with a senior executive in the organisation who is directly above me in the chain of command and will have significant power, if she chooses, over my future prospects in the Department.

Literally, quite literally, the first words out of her mouth were an unveiled jab at my gender and the gender composition of my team. "Hi, the latest addition...to this all-male team. We'll have to see what we can do about that". For context, I work in a small team of five people, all of whom were selected because we have extensive data analysis and evaluation experience, and not because we had penises.

What would you do if you were in my position?

It may simply be that her comment was part of an ongoing conversation she's having about the lack of diversity in the company and wasn't meant as a jab at you at all.

Just let her know that you self-identify as a disabled black lesbian with an eating disorder so she can tick off as many boxes as she wants on the company's EEO forms.

 

[Toni]

I read the link you posted. You may not be aware, but different types of jobs and workplaces have different dress codes. In my job and anywhere at my employer, yoga pants would not be allowed for any job classification for anybody, period.

On my last day at my previous job, I wore trackie dacks. Nobody said anything, which makes me think I could've worn trackie dacks every day for the last five years.

We build cages for ourselves.

Not sure what trackie dacks are but am guessing it's informal clothing attire.

From the limited number of Australians I have known, I am guessing that in general, Australia is less formal than at least some of the US.

That said, in the US, different work places and different professions have different cultures, including expectations with regards to dress. I've worked at places where I was expected to wear a skirt or dress, hosiery and heels, places where jeans and a tshirt were customary, an actual company issued uniform was mandatory (my least favorite place to work for reasons other than this one, which was really bad, imo), and my current employer which expects work casual (slacks or khakis plus shirt vs t-shirt, modest) plus lab coat and whatever other personal protective gear is required for work being performed.

 

[KeepTalking]

I read the link you posted. You may not be aware, but different types of jobs and workplaces have different dress codes. In my job and anywhere at my employer, yoga pants would not be allowed for any job classification for anybody, period.

On my last day at my previous job, I wore trackie dacks. Nobody said anything, which makes me think I could've worn trackie dacks every day for the last five years.

We build cages for ourselves.

When I first started my current job, I mistook Friday "jeans day" for "casual day", and wore mostly comic book super hero T-shirts on Fridays for the first month an a half or two months on the job. I had worn the same clothes at my previous job for 3 years, as we had a casual dress policy. Here, I just thought I was the coolest person in the room. A few other people started to wear T-shirts as well. Eventually, my boss pulled me aside, and informed me that even though she did not agree with the policy, I had caused an email shitstorm among management, with my rebellious wearing of geeky T-shirts on Friday. I was astounded that things had gone on that long without a single person telling me that I was out of dress code, but immediately came into line with the dress code when I was informed. I have since ordered a few polos with superhero logos emblazoned on them, and began wearing them on casual Friday, so that I can still get my geek on, and remain in dress code. I am hoping to start a new trend with the numerous other comic book geeks in my department.

- - - Updated - - -

On my last day at my previous job, I wore trackie dacks. Nobody said anything, which makes me think I could've worn trackie dacks every day for the last five years.

We build cages for ourselves.

Not sure what trackie dacks are but am guessing it's informal clothing attire.

From the limited number of Australians I have known, I am guessing that in general, Australia is less formal than at least some of the US.

That said, in the US, different work places and different professions have different cultures, including expectations with regards to dress. I've worked at places where I was expected to wear a skirt or dress, hosiery and heels, places where jeans and a tshirt were customary, an actual company issued uniform was mandatory (my least favorite place to work for reasons other than this one, which was really bad, imo), and my current employer which expects work casual (slacks or khakis plus shirt vs t-shirt, modest) plus lab coat and whatever other personal protective gear is required for work being performed.

A quick Google search reveals that they are track suit pants, or what we here in the US would call sweat pants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Even if true this does not rebut his claim that the 30% number is bogus. The actual number is 2% but even that is suspect.

2) Once you control for the factors that we can measure the difference drops from 29% to 2%. Note that that does not mean there still is a difference--the far more likely hypothesis is that there are factors that aren't as easy to measure. A simple look at the workplace shows this--fathers are more willing to accept out of town assignments than mothers. Does this make a difference? Almost certainly. Can we measure it? To date I haven't heard of anyone having done so. Thus the difference, if it exists at all, is certainly less than 2%.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf

Simply looking at one's occupation isn't enough.

That 2% number requires looking at total hours actually worked (no "full time"!!), the number of years of experience in the field (not age!!!) and exactly what one does. Whether that list you linked is detailed enough or not I don't know but at best it addresses 1 of 3.

 

[Toni]

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf

Simply looking at one's occupation isn't enough.

That 2% number requires looking at total hours actually worked (no "full time"!!), the number of years of experience in the field (not age!!!) and exactly what one does. Whether that list you linked is detailed enough or not I don't know but at best it addresses 1 of 3.

Try making an argument you can back with data.

 

[fromderinside]

1. It may surprise you that even though I am a faggot, I don't desire to take every single man's penis into my mouth. But, why is it you think I should not be heard?

She has every right as a 5%er to jab.

2. What's a 5%er? Is it someone who has made it into a senior executive position but has no regard for her subordinates?

If the jab makes you wince with fear. Good. You're now feeling what she felt though her career.

3.Why would you regard it as 'good' that people are subjected to blood libel?

The answer to 1. are your answers to 2. and 3.

Don't give a damn about your sexual persuasion beyond you are a male acting like a dick

 

[Metaphor]

1. It may surprise you that even though I am a faggot, I don't desire to take every single man's penis into my mouth. But, why is it you think I should not be heard?



2. What's a 5%er? Is it someone who has made it into a senior executive position but has no regard for her subordinates?

If the jab makes you wince with fear. Good. You're now feeling what she felt though her career.

3.Why would you regard it as 'good' that people are subjected to blood libel?

The answer to 1. are your answers to 2. and 3.

Don't give a damn about your sexual persuasion beyond you are a male acting like a dick

In what way am I 'acting like a dick'? Do you mean by discussing my experience? Is that what 'acting like a dick' is?

If you believe shutting up is such a virtue, I suggest you start by practising what you preach.

 

[Metaphor]

On my last day at my previous job, I wore trackie dacks. Nobody said anything, which makes me think I could've worn trackie dacks every day for the last five years.

We build cages for ourselves.

Not sure what trackie dacks are but am guessing it's informal clothing attire.

From the limited number of Australians I have known, I am guessing that in general, Australia is less formal than at least some of the US.

That said, in the US, different work places and different professions have different cultures, including expectations with regards to dress. I've worked at places where I was expected to wear a skirt or dress, hosiery and heels, places where jeans and a tshirt were customary, an actual company issued uniform was mandatory (my least favorite place to work for reasons other than this one, which was really bad, imo), and my current employer which expects work casual (slacks or khakis plus shirt vs t-shirt, modest) plus lab coat and whatever other personal protective gear is required for work being performed.

They're elastic waisted sweat pants, which come in two flavours -- 'fleece' type material and jersey-knit cotton/spandex blends.

I was joking about thinking I could've worn it the whole time I was there. Sweat pants would never be appropriate attire, except perhaps for a gym instructor. But then I'd have to exercise for a living.

 

[Metaphor]

It may simply be that her comment was part of an ongoing conversation she's having about the lack of diversity in the company and wasn't meant as a jab at you at all.

If there's a lack of (gender) diversity, it's in the exact opposite direction that she implies. Women outnumber men in my new workplace and there is more than one team where the team members are all women.

The timing and lack of humour of the comment makes me think even if it were not me personally she was worried about, it was my gender she was worried about, and that she'd be willing to act on it, too.

 

[Toni]

It may simply be that her comment was part of an ongoing conversation she's having about the lack of diversity in the company and wasn't meant as a jab at you at all.

If there's a lack of (gender) diversity, it's in the exact opposite direction that she implies. Women outnumber men in my new workplace and there is more than one team where the team members are all women.

The timing and lack of humour of the comment makes me think even if it were not me personally she was worried about, it was my gender she was worried about, and that she'd be willing to act on it, too.

You may be correct. You were there and heard tone of voice, read facial expressions.

It could well be that she is under a lot of pressure to hire women within that unit. It doesn't make it ok that she said that out loud but it would be a reason for the thpught to cross her mind.

I've been the only female in a group. Sometimes it is hard to be the only one. Still doesn't make what she said ok. Really I'm just trying to suggest some things that might explain what she said so that you can get off to a good start in your new position.

And if it turns out to be a bad situation, keep in mind the advice Bronze Age gave and work really hard and make yourself indespensible. It will make whatever course of action you feel is necessary so much easier.

Congratulations, btw.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Simply looking at one's occupation isn't enough.

That 2% number requires looking at total hours actually worked (no "full time"!!), the number of years of experience in the field (not age!!!) and exactly what one does. Whether that list you linked is detailed enough or not I don't know but at best it addresses 1 of 3.

Try making an argument you can back with data.

You didn't pay any attention when I did.

 

[RavenSky]

What I do believe is that people should be judged on their merits and not their genitals.

And in a perfect world, everyone would believe as you do, and act of those beliefs; and then we would never need to be worried about workplace discrimination against women or minorities (or anyone). Unfortunately, we know for a fact that not everyone believes that people should be judged on their merits and not their genitals, or the color of their skin.

As for your new boss, make a note of what she said and the people who witnessed her saying it; then do your job. If such comments continue, make notes about those including other witnesses. It may eventually be enough to constitute a hostile workplace that you should report to your HR department. Or it may have been a one-off meant as a joke that came off poorly but gave you the opportunity to post about it here to continue the "men are the real victims" fallacy.

 

[Toni]

Try making an argument you can back with data.

You didn't pay any attention when I did.

I am sorry if I missed your link(s).

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Is it really five years since you were so excited about getting your last job?

In the present case, take Ravensky's advice and document what was said, just in case.

Then consider the possibility that she was just noticing that your group is a sausage-fest. Possibly even apologising for it, in a not very serious sort of way, if she isn't aware of your orientation. People do banter, and it isn't always a political statement.

Having said that, you were there, what would we know?

Congrats on the new position.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

What would you do if you were in my position?

That particular comment wouldn't bother me much, even though it's not particularly appropriate, but imagining an off-hand remark that would bother me...

In a new job? From a single remark? Probably not much. It would catch me off guard, and by the time it registered, the moment would have been gone. If further comments were made (or are made in the future), I'd politely inform the speaker than I find that sort of humour uncomfortable, explain why if they didn't understand, and try to be accommodating of the fact that no one likes to be told they're being inappropriate. If they persisted, I'd inform them I'd be going through channels to remedy the situation, and then follow through. But you know, you have to pick your battles, 'cause even if you're right, you could still end up out on your ass. I can't comfortably afford to lose my job right now, so I'm not in the habit of jumping on every awkward, inappropriate comment. There's a threshold at which I would feel shitty for saying nothing, and once that's crossed, I'm more than willing to stir the pot if need be.

 

[fromderinside]

In what way am I 'acting like a dick'? Do you mean by discussing my experience? Is that what 'acting like a dick' is?

If you believe shutting up is such a virtue, I suggest you start by practising what you preach.

You call what you wrote discussing? I call it broadcasting one's distaste for another's way of introducing herself which has very little to do with discussing

To wit:

Literally, quite literally, the first words out of her mouth were an unveiled jab at my gender and the gender composition of my team. "Hi, the latest addition...to this all-male team. We'll have to see what we can do about that". For context, I work in a small team of five people, all of whom were selected because we have extensive data analysis and evaluation experience, and not because we had penises.

What would you do if you were in my position?

RE: preach practicing: Sorry. To old.

Yet, I'm young enough to understand that if 5% of women are in upper management they might be considered five percent-ers, and that since they earn less than their male counterparts on average they might have some heat to bear on the idea they will probably be targeted by one of those males about their comments. So stop your whistling at the young ladies walking by and get on with your job as a member of that lady's team.

The penis-in-mouth thing was over the top. Sorry.

RavenSky nailed it by leaving out your editorializing at the outset.

 

[Metaphor]

You call what you wrote discussing?

I presented a narrative. It wasn't a discussion until people responded.

I call it broadcasting one's distaste for another's way of introducing herself which has very little to do with discussing

Senior executives ought to be quite particular about the way they introduce themselves to subordinates.

To wit:

Yet, I'm young enough to understand that if 5% of women are in upper management they might be considered five percent-ers, and that since they earn less than their male counterparts on average they might have some heat to bear on the idea they will probably be targeted by one of those males about their comments. So stop your whistling at the young ladies walking by and get on with your job as a member of that lady's team.

I don't whistle at "young ladies", or young men, as they walk by. That would be uncouth.

 

[barbos]

It may simply be that her comment was part of an ongoing conversation she's having about the lack of diversity in the company and wasn't meant as a jab at you at all.

If there's a lack of (gender) diversity, it's in the exact opposite direction that she implies. Women outnumber men in my new workplace and there is more than one team where the team members are all women.

The timing and lack of humour of the comment makes me think even if it were not me personally she was worried about, it was my gender she was worried about, and that she'd be willing to act on it, too.

So you did not sense any humor? Interesting, I agree with Tom Sawyer that is looked to me as a continuation of some debate in the management over it. Now it seems more like it was a fight, not a debate.

 

[fromderinside]

I presented a narrative. It wasn't a discussion until people responded.

I call it broadcasting one's distaste for another's way of introducing herself which has very little to do with discussing

Senior executives ought to be quite particular about the way they introduce themselves to subordinates.

To wit:

Yet, I'm young enough to understand that if 5% of women are in upper management they might be considered five percent-ers, and that since they earn less than their male counterparts on average they might have some heat to bear on the idea they will probably be targeted by one of those males about their comments. So stop your whistling at the young ladies walking by and get on with your job as a member of that lady's team.

I don't whistle at "young ladies", or young men, as they walk by. That would be uncouth.

Of course it would as I and probably she intended. Tight jaws going in don't loosen when one finds ways to keep them clenched. Try another way. She's a senior person. Perhaps she has seen this rodeo before.

Consider that your opinions might already be known and she's looking for how you choose to respond. Like "maybe he's a problem" "Well give him something to bark about" "Its better to know than to suspect" Are you scared yet?