What should be done with the future Covid-19 Vaccine deniers?

[Loren Pechtel]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Driving isn't a right; but a privilege.

knowingly endangering other people isn't a right or a privilege. It's a crime.

That's not always true otherwise there wouldn't be religious or medical exemptions to vaccines.

There should be no religious exemptions.

Medical exemptions exist because while the reward of herd immunity is basically the same for everyone the risk needed to get it isn't. However, the patient's doctor shouldn't be allowed to grant them, but rather submit a documented request so there's no issue of pressuring the doctor to issue it.

 

[Keith&Co.]

According to Dr. Antyony Fauci, a Covid vaccine could be coming that is 70% or higher effect. However, a recent CNN poll found that perhaps 1/3 of Americans would not get vaccinated even if it were cheap and widely available:

Cancel the Space Force.
Create the Vaccine Force.
Make it an arm of Homeland Security.
Give the VF only a few personnel, BUT empower them to deputize local police forces to coerce vaccinations on citizens who cannot provide a medical reason for their exemption, subject to review and follow-up with their doctor. Something like traffic court, appear before the Virus judge with your note, or a warrant will be issued.

We either get herd immunity or we get police forces defunded.

 

[J842P]

man, I need to a layman level deep dive be to a quarter of the way to be literate about this topic.

Immunology is probably one of the most complex topics in biology.

It's a Rube Goldberg machine if I ever saw one.

Well, pretty much all cell-level phenomena look like this. Take a look at any signal transduction cascade. Pretty much throws the whole "don't multiply unnecessary entities unnecessarily" methodological maxim (i.e. Occam's razor) out.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Nothing. Individual choice.

Individual choice is applicable when the only person you put at risk is yourself. When you put others at risk, the act becomes public and thus subject to public deliberation.

You can argue against mandatory seatbelts on the basis of individual choice, but not against DUI laws, mandatory vaccinations, or an obligation to check up on your cars brakes every so often: Even though, in all of these cases the person most at risk due to your negligent behaviour is yourself, its not the only one whose risk is increased.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Driving isn't a right; but a privilege. Drinking alcohol is a voluntary act, and it's not lawful to force or coerce someone into drinking against their will. You're arguing that you should have the right to insert something into other people's bodies against their will. We don't know if said vaccine, if it's ever produced, will not harm the people injected with it.

One should be very careful about demanding others put things into their bodies against their wills. Said arguments can be used against you in the future.

Sorry, but I wouldn't hire you at my company. I wouldn't want someone on my team who didn't care about the heath of the others on the team. You have the right to not get a vaccine. But others have the right to not want you around them.

 

[Toni]

According to Dr. Antyony Fauci, a Covid vaccine could be coming that is 70% or higher effect. However, a recent CNN poll found that perhaps 1/3 of Americans would not get vaccinated even if it were cheap and widely available:

Cancel the Space Force.
Create the Vaccine Force.
Make it an arm of Homeland Security.
Give the VF only a few personnel, BUT empower them to deputize local police forces to coerce vaccinations on citizens who cannot provide a medical reason for their exemption, subject to review and follow-up with their doctor. Something like traffic court, appear before the Virus judge with your note, or a warrant will be issued.

We either get herd immunity or we get police forces defunded.

Uh, no police enforcement of medical procedures. Absolute no. No being an arm of Homeland Security which should be eliminated.

It *could* be part of the DMV/State ID system. Must be vaccinated in order to drive/have a state ID. Mandatory for all schools and preschools, and include all post secondary education options AND the military and all civil service training, etc. Employers make mandatory. Welfare of all kinds: mandatory.

 

[Toni]

That's not always true otherwise there wouldn't be religious or medical exemptions to vaccines.

There should be no religious exemptions.

Medical exemptions exist because while the reward of herd immunity is basically the same for everyone the risk needed to get it isn't. However, the patient's doctor shouldn't be allowed to grant them, but rather submit a documented request so there's no issue of pressuring the doctor to issue it.

Eh, not sure about docs not being allowed to make medical exemption.

You or your child has just been diagnosed with leukemia and must undergo chemotherapy and possibly have a bone marrow transplant down the line. For the duration of your chemotherapy and perhaps for some time after and maybe forever, you are immunocompromised. But you must start chemo NOW. This is no time to force anyone to jump through any extra hoops, even tiny ones. That's only one example but I'm really all for making this extremely easy and painless and automatic.

When I was in school we were always tested for TB. Just lined up and tested and then lined up and tests were read. Same thing at work. In my parents' day, schools used to administer small pox vaccinations at school.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It's surprising that some people are saying Typhoid Mary should have been allowed to continue to live her life without restrictions.

 

[Keith&Co.]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Driving isn't a right; but a privilege. Drinking alcohol is a voluntary act, and it's not lawful to force or coerce someone into drinking against their will. You're arguing that you should have the right to insert something into other people's bodies against their will.

Nope. It's apples and apples.

YOU don't have to drive on the right. But if you won't, we don't let you drive on our roads. We have rules to maximize the number of people who can use them safely.

YOU don't have to be vaccinated, but if you won't we don't have to let you in our stores, malls, offices, schools. Not if vaccination is the means to maximize the number of people who can safely work and shop and teach and attend. Driving on the left threatens members of society, driving drunk threatens, breathing your infections into a crowd threatens. It's the same defensive act to bar access.

Same thing to demand masks, or bar kids from peanuts at a school with someone suffering a peanut allergy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Driving isn't a right; but a privilege. Drinking alcohol is a voluntary act, and it's not lawful to force or coerce someone into drinking against their will. You're arguing that you should have the right to insert something into other people's bodies against their will. We don't know if said vaccine, if it's ever produced, will not harm the people injected with it.

One should be very careful about demanding others put things into their bodies against their wills. Said arguments can be used against you in the future.

Sorry, but I wouldn't hire you at my company. I wouldn't want someone on my team who didn't care about the heath of the others on the team.

That is a strawman, I think.

You have the right to not get a vaccine.

Isn't that all they asserted? You confirmed their statement.

My problem is that there are plenty of Americans that think individual rights trump communal rights on all aspects of life. And that is ridiculous, but it is definitely an American thing.

These idiots have been a problem the whole pandemic. You can't make me stay at home (but all the places are closed). Then it becomes, you can't make me wear a mask. Then it'll be, you can't make me get vaccinated. Then what, armed to the teeth at the hospitals that are beyond capacity to force doctors to provide health care services for family member or friend?

They don't have a choice! None of us do. Hopefully there will be a vaccine.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Let me take a crack at it. But instead of giving my own opinion, I will try to give an opinion that will fit in on this forum.

Those who do not voluntary line up to get the vaccine should not be allowed to hold jobs, shop at any public establishment, or receive any government assistance until they voluntarily line up to get the vaccine.

Does that sound right for this forum?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's a Rube Goldberg machine if I ever saw one.

Well, pretty much all cell-level phenomena look like this. Take a look at any signal transduction cascade. Pretty much throws the whole "don't multiply unnecessary entities unnecessarily" methodological maxim (i.e. Occam's razor) out.

Yup, evolution-"designed" structures tend to be Rube Goldberg approaches. Plenty of stuff above the cell level is still awfully stupid.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Beginning Monday, August 24: Restrict all outbound pedestrian traffic and limo service from Vystar Arena in Jacksonville. Indefinite quarantine, testing, and contact searches, until such time as the positive tests are under 2%. If that takes 4 months, so be it. And it might not take all that long, 'cause one day, just like a miracle, it will vanish.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's not always true otherwise there wouldn't be religious or medical exemptions to vaccines.

There should be no religious exemptions.

Medical exemptions exist because while the reward of herd immunity is basically the same for everyone the risk needed to get it isn't. However, the patient's doctor shouldn't be allowed to grant them, but rather submit a documented request so there's no issue of pressuring the doctor to issue it.

Eh, not sure about docs not being allowed to make medical exemption.

You or your child has just been diagnosed with leukemia and must undergo chemotherapy and possibly have a bone marrow transplant down the line. For the duration of your chemotherapy and perhaps for some time after and maybe forever, you are immunocompromised. But you must start chemo NOW. This is no time to force anyone to jump through any extra hoops, even tiny ones. That's only one example but I'm really all for making this extremely easy and painless and automatic.

When I was in school we were always tested for TB. Just lined up and tested and then lined up and tests were read. Same thing at work. In my parents' day, schools used to administer small pox vaccinations at school.

The problem is a lot of docs are pressured into unfounded exemptions and some docs basically are exemption mills. The sort of scenario you're talking about, however, should basically not exist--you normally get your shots some time before they are required, thus putting them off because of a leukemia diagnosis will not be a problem and that's sufficiently clear cut that the approval should be very quick. (I would allow the doctor's request for an exemption to be used as an exemption until they decide, although that's a one-time thing, you can't keep being exempted by continually reapplying.)

 

[ZiprHead]

Eh, not sure about docs not being allowed to make medical exemption.

You or your child has just been diagnosed with leukemia and must undergo chemotherapy and possibly have a bone marrow transplant down the line. For the duration of your chemotherapy and perhaps for some time after and maybe forever, you are immunocompromised. But you must start chemo NOW. This is no time to force anyone to jump through any extra hoops, even tiny ones. That's only one example but I'm really all for making this extremely easy and painless and automatic.

When I was in school we were always tested for TB. Just lined up and tested and then lined up and tests were read. Same thing at work. In my parents' day, schools used to administer small pox vaccinations at school.

The problem is a lot of docs are pressured into unfounded exemptions and some docs basically are exemption mills. The sort of scenario you're talking about, however, should basically not exist--you normally get your shots some time before they are required, thus putting them off because of a leukemia diagnosis will not be a problem and that's sufficiently clear cut that the approval should be very quick. (I would allow the doctor's request for an exemption to be used as an exemption until they decide, although that's a one-time thing, you can't keep being exempted by continually reapplying.)

Leukemia is generally not diagnosed by your family physician. It's diagnosed by pathologists or hematologists. Reports from those specialists would surely be included in any exemption request.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Eh, not sure about docs not being allowed to make medical exemption.

You or your child has just been diagnosed with leukemia and must undergo chemotherapy and possibly have a bone marrow transplant down the line. For the duration of your chemotherapy and perhaps for some time after and maybe forever, you are immunocompromised. But you must start chemo NOW. This is no time to force anyone to jump through any extra hoops, even tiny ones. That's only one example but I'm really all for making this extremely easy and painless and automatic.

When I was in school we were always tested for TB. Just lined up and tested and then lined up and tests were read. Same thing at work. In my parents' day, schools used to administer small pox vaccinations at school.

The problem is a lot of docs are pressured into unfounded exemptions and some docs basically are exemption mills. The sort of scenario you're talking about, however, should basically not exist--you normally get your shots some time before they are required, thus putting them off because of a leukemia diagnosis will not be a problem and that's sufficiently clear cut that the approval should be very quick. (I would allow the doctor's request for an exemption to be used as an exemption until they decide, although that's a one-time thing, you can't keep being exempted by continually reapplying.)

Leukemia is generally not diagnosed by your family physician. It's diagnosed by pathologists or hematologists. Reports from those specialists would surely be included in any exemption request.

Exactly, which is why it wouldn't be an issue. The problem isn't the legit diagnoses, it's the garbage ones made up to appease anti-vax parents.

 

[Worldtraveller]

So, are guillotines out of the question?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So, are guillotines out of the question?

What I wrote would be far more effective than guillotines.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Let me take a crack at it. But instead of giving my own opinion, I will try to give an opinion that will fit in on this forum.

Those who do not voluntary line up to get the vaccine should not be allowed to hold jobs, shop at any public establishment, or receive any government assistance until they voluntarily line up to get the vaccine.

Does that sound right for this forum?

That's a good start. I also think that they should probably provide their own medical care to themselves. It's not fair to expose health care workers to their germs if they are so damn selfish that they won't get a vacinne.

 

[cycomiko]

Let me take a crack at it. But instead of giving my own opinion, I will try to give an opinion that will fit in on this forum.

Those who do not voluntary line up to get the vaccine should not be allowed to hold jobs, shop at any public establishment, or receive any government assistance until they voluntarily line up to get the vaccine.

Does that sound right for this forum?

That's a good start. I also think that they should probably provide their own medical care to themselves. It's not fair to expose health care workers to their germs if they are so damn selfish that they won't get a vacinne.

The anti-vaxxers would technically be allowed to hold jobs and shop at stores. However, the employers and shop owner are also allowed to deny entry to those putting others at risk.

 

[Toni]

Eh, not sure about docs not being allowed to make medical exemption.

You or your child has just been diagnosed with leukemia and must undergo chemotherapy and possibly have a bone marrow transplant down the line. For the duration of your chemotherapy and perhaps for some time after and maybe forever, you are immunocompromised. But you must start chemo NOW. This is no time to force anyone to jump through any extra hoops, even tiny ones. That's only one example but I'm really all for making this extremely easy and painless and automatic.

When I was in school we were always tested for TB. Just lined up and tested and then lined up and tests were read. Same thing at work. In my parents' day, schools used to administer small pox vaccinations at school.

The problem is a lot of docs are pressured into unfounded exemptions and some docs basically are exemption mills. The sort of scenario you're talking about, however, should basically not exist--you normally get your shots some time before they are required, thus putting them off because of a leukemia diagnosis will not be a problem and that's sufficiently clear cut that the approval should be very quick. (I would allow the doctor's request for an exemption to be used as an exemption until they decide, although that's a one-time thing, you can't keep being exempted by continually reapplying.)

I agree that childhood cancers should not exist but they do. Some friends lost their child shortly after his 3rd birthday, at which time his normal school immunizations, had he been able to be on the schedule, would still not have been completed. Another child I knew had leukemia during kindergarten and very nearly died of the chickenpox as there was no vaccine for his schoolmates and siblings to have taken that would have protected him. Children are born with HIV and other conditions that compromise their immune systems. There should already be sufficient documentation to exempt them. Personally, I have very strong doubts that doctors are pressured to provide medical exemptions. After all, only exceptional doctors are connected to Donald Trump.