What should Israel do?

[Arctish]

Decades of brutal oppression and theft.

More like antisemitism, but thanks for playing.

Not all Jews are Israelis.

Not all Israelis are Jews.

Not all Israeli Jews are Zionists.

Not all Zionists are thieves, racists, and violent bigots.

But some are, and the policies they pursue in the Occupied Territories deserve every bit of the condemnation they get.

These Jews are assholes:


Calling them assholes is not the same thing as calling all Jews assholes.


Thanks for playing.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

The number of fallacies in this thread is mind boggling. On both sides. I think both sides are behaving abominably. But what Hamas is doing is beyond the pale.

The first problem is the idea that Israel is not a legitimate country and it does not have legitimate borders. That is pure crap. Land is taken all of the time. Sometimes it's purchased (almost 4% of the land of Mandatory Palestine was purchased by the JNF alone), some time it's taken in war. The US is not giving Texas back to Mexico and it's not giving anything back to the Native Americans or to the English. Australia is not giving land back to the Aborigines. Germany is not going to give land back to the Holy Roman Empire. France is not going back to the Visigoths. Israel's borders have been defined by the United Nations and adjusted as the result of their victories in wars waged against them. They were attacked by the entire Arab world in 1948, 1967 and 1973. They were victorious each time, though they did not instigate any of these conflicts. To the victor goes the spoils. That's the way the world works. If you start a war and attack a country and lose the war, you get very little say in the aftermath. Israel offered to negotiate after 1967 and they were rebuffed. See the three NOs. They did however give back the entire Sinai to Egypt in return for peace. So the idea that Israel wants to keep the land and won't give it back is also crap. For real peace, Israel will give up a great deal.

The next bit of BS is that there is a Genocide. Unlike the genocide in Rawnada where 20% of the population was killed (70% of Tutsi population) or the Shoah where 67% of the Jews of Europe were killed the Gaza population has steadily increased from 300,000 in 1948 to 1.6 million today. That is not a genocide and calling it so is false and calls the motivation of the claimant to be questionable at best.

The next canard is that Israel has always blockaded the Gaza strip. That is false. While Israel has always controlled it's border with Gaza, as did Egypt before it, it did not blockade Gaza until 2007. I don't see any complaint that Egypt has also closed it's crossing with Gaza.

The final bit of BS has to do with the conduct of the IDF. In any war (in fact all war is a crime) there are people who make the maximum effort to reduce civilian casualties and there are those that don't If you try to compare the actions of Hamas and the IDF and you think Hamas is more humane, you are full of crap. They fire missiles from schools, hospitals, mosques. There missiles are targeting only civilians. During WWII, there was a country that fired missiles against another country. The response was carpet bombing Germany to rubble. How many innocent people were killed at Dresden or Hiroshima? War is terrible. Those that start the war and there is no question Hamas started the war will have to suffer the consequences as did the Germans and the Japanese for supporting these regimes.

 

[angelo]

So what is the opinion of the anti-Israel posters on the many tunnels Hamas dug into Israel and which it uses to infiltrate into Israeli territory?
Note especially that these tunnels must have been dug over a lengthy period of time and that they take a lot of cement to reinforce, which Gazans claim they desperately need for "civilian" projects.

I thought cement was banned from being imported for that very reason. Methinks it's been smuggled in by hamas. [From now on I shall not be using a capital letter to name hamas]

 

[angelo]

True. But what the Israelis did was ethnic cleansing. It's well documented. They threw over 700,000 Palestinians out or refused to let them return to their homes. Which is no different. Even if Israel set up borders those homes were still Palestinian homes and they had every right under international law to return to them.

And every settlement is continual ethnic cleansing. An attempt to make sure Arabs don't live on the land. The settlements are racist enclaves.

20% of the population of Israel is Arab. That's hardly ethnic cleansing.

0% of the population of Gaza/West Bank is Jewish--because they actually did ethnically cleanse.

israel-gaza-crisis-ground-invasionDespite the cries of furious hipsters waving cardboard signs stained with fake blood, there is no ethnic cleansing going on in Gaza. No more than there was when the US began bombing the Taliban.

The last act of ethnic cleansing took place in the summer of 2005 when the Israeli government gave in to international pressure by forcibly evicting all the Jews from the Gaza Strip. Even the graves were dug up.

The media, which had been up in arms when Israel had evicted 400 Hamas terrorists, had nothing but applause for the forced ethnic cleansing of thousands of Jewish families. The synagogues they left behind were also torched to the applause of the same media now filling the airwaves with fake outrage.
[Daniel Greenfield]

 

[angelo]

It has to do with intent.

Yeah, I get that. That justification is used all the time during war. So, you are saying that it's ok to kill civilians who are near militants as long as your intent is to kill the militant and not the civilians.

It's called "collateral damage "a term coined by ex President Bush. In no way similar to deliberate targeting of civilians as hamas does!

 

[arkirk]

20% of the population of Israel is Arab. That's hardly ethnic cleansing.

0% of the population of Gaza/West Bank is Jewish--because they actually did ethnically cleanse.

israel-gaza-crisis-ground-invasionDespite the cries of furious hipsters waving cardboard signs stained with fake blood, there is no ethnic cleansing going on in Gaza. No more than there was when the US began bombing the Taliban.

The last act of ethnic cleansing took place in the summer of 2005 when the Israeli government gave in to international pressure by forcibly evicting all the Jews from the Gaza Strip. Even the graves were dug up.

The media, which had been up in arms when Israel had evicted 400 Hamas terrorists, had nothing but applause for the forced ethnic cleansing of thousands of Jewish families. The synagogues they left behind were also torched to the applause of the same media now filling the airwaves with fake outrage.
[Daniel Greenfield]

Sharon, the butcher of Lebanon, shut down and cleared out Israeli settlements so Gaza could be used as it is being used today...as a killing field...so indiscriminant bombing could be conducted without endangering any Jews. Now if the Jews came into your homeland and ran you off your own property for a "settlement," when they went, if you were either a Muslim or an Atheist or a Christian, what reason to retain their fucking synagogue anyway? It was not ethnic cleansing as they were compensated and resettled in the West Bank on other land seized from the Palestinians.

Even if you are a cold blooded uncaring atheist, there is no reason to give support to the actions of either of these vicious contenders in the middle east. Both sides are demonstrating the violence they have for non-whaever they are. They are not our friends...either side. One side seems to have a lot more blood on its hands and that is due to fecklessness of the weaker side. Frankly however I wonder if big brother came and seized your property and built a mosque or temple on it and moved you to the shore of the salton sea behind a barrier, and calculated how many calories you would be allowed to sustain yourself, then controlled your food and water....and occasionally blew a few of your neighbors up....It is understandable that these people resist. Israel is a racist country...very similar to old South Africa and 19th century America.

What amazes me is all the speculation of the best way to maximize the position of the Israeli military in Gaza. Why do people on this forum support either side because both sides are ready to oppress atheists. Actually, Christian arabs in the West Bank are mistreated and isolated.So why are we so gung ho for the Israelis? It makes no sense.. I can understand why we don't support radical muslims. so what about rabid Zionists?

I would appreciate having these questions answered clearly and also not being accused of making "the stupidest post." I feel that I can afford to be magnanimous toward both sides and suggest how they might stop killing each other and butchering each other. But so many folks here actually imagine it is our place to support unbridled religion based aggression. The Jewish version just happens to be more effectively killing Arabs than Hamas is in killing Jews, but some of each type are dying in this conflict.

 

[angelo]

^^^Perhaps some of us have studied the history of problem?

 

[Arctish]

^^^Perhaps some of us have studied the history of problem?

Some of us have. For years and years and years.

 

[angelo]

Israel is responding to the launching of thousands of rockets against civilian targets. I'm quite certain that if rockets were falling on you guys who seem to be supporting hamas you would demand immediate government action, even if this resulted in high civilian casualties for the enemy.
Another thing that seems to have been forgotten here is the hamas charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and genocide against Jews. The hamas charter is available on the Internet for all to see.

Again, whatever the rights and wrongs about the Palestinian claims against Israel, they are not going to achieve it by firing ineffective rockets at Israel. So the question then is "why are they doing it?"
Could it be that they have achieved their objective?
Israel has retaliated, as everyone knew they would, and now hamas can manipulate the world's media to demonise them-"look at the evil Jews slaughtering innocent women and children. And going by this thread, it's succedeenig.
Leftist media is asking, "how long is the rest of the world going to stand back and watch the slaughter in Gaza? "
What about the question "how long is the world going to stand back and watch hamas fire rocket after rocket into Israel?"
The Malaysian Airlines MH17 was shot down by a militant missile provided by a superior power with it's own agenda.
Who is supplying hamas with rockets they are firing at Israel?
Were it not for the Israeli "Iron Dome" Israeli casualties would be in the hundreds.

 

[Arctish]

Did you know it was possible to both dislike jewish extremist AND muslim extremist at the same time?

QFT, and worth repeating.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

^^^Perhaps some of us have studied the history of problem?

Some of us have. For years and years and years.

And learned nothing at all. You care nothing at all about Palestinians unless they are killed by Jews. If they are killed by other Arabs, you don't give a crap or mention it. 3000 Palestinians were killed in Syria and you didn't post a thing.

 

[Arctish]

Some of us have. For years and years and years.

And learned nothing at all. You care nothing at all about Palestinians unless they are killed by Jews. If they are killed by other Arabs, you don't give a crap or mention it. 3000 Palestinians were killed in Syria and you didn't post a thing.

You don't know me well enough to support that accusation. And anyway, it's just another Ad Hominem. Whether or not I have my facts straight has nothing to do with who I care about, dead or alive.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Some of us have. For years and years and years.

And learned nothing at all. You care nothing at all about Palestinians unless they are killed by Jews. If they are killed by other Arabs, you don't give a crap or mention it. 3000 Palestinians were killed in Syria and you didn't post a thing.

Far far more Palestinian's will be killed by Muslim fanatics than Israeli soldiers.

 

[Togo]

Israel is responding to the launching of thousands of rockets against civilian targets. I'm quite certain that if rockets were falling on you guys who seem to be supporting hamas you would demand immediate government action, even if this resulted in high civilian casualties for the enemy.

Absolutely! Dismantle the settlements, create a proper state for Palestine based on shared infrastructure, and integrate the two so that no one can profit from firing rockets at anyone.

Unfortunately, I'm not part of a religiously motivated state trying to ethnically cleanse land for their own expansion, so maybe my responses aren't too relevant here.

Another thing that seems to have been forgotten here is the hamas charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and genocide against Jews. The hamas charter is available on the Internet for all to see.

The British national anthem calls for the destruction of France and the crushing of Scotland. So what?

Again, whatever the rights and wrongs about the Palestinian claims against Israel, they are not going to achieve it by firing ineffective rockets at Israel.

Sure they are. I think it's potentially a very successful tactic, far better than previous tactics of suicide bombers, or attacking the settlements themselves.

Israel has retaliated, as everyone knew they would, and now hamas can manipulate the world's media to demonise them-"look at the evil Jews slaughtering innocent women and children. And going by this thread, it's succedeenig.
Leftist media is asking, "how long is the rest of the world going to stand back and watch the slaughter in Gaza? "

They certainly are. They're also asking questions about why Israel is in Occupation in the first place, why they are trying to remove Palestinians from their own lands and replace them with settlements, appropriate water, etc. etc.

So from the point of view of keeping the issue current, it's working very well.

What about the question "how long is the world going to stand back and watch hamas fire rocket after rocket into Israel?"

Probably a lot longer than either of us would like. The main problem is that the US blocks any serious movement on this in the name of keeping Israel as a military ally in the middle east.

Who is supplying hamas with rockets they are firing at Israel?

Mainly Iran, but also various groups around the area, including Turkish separatists, Egyptian groups, and no doubt several others. They're hardly the latest technology, and there's little quality control, so they're not that hard to get hold of.

Were it not for the Israeli "Iron Dome" Israeli casualties would be in the hundreds.

Hm.. I'm not sure the Dome is that effective. It's mainly made of anti-missile missiles, so while you do indeed shoot down the rockets, you end up with twice as much high explosive falling from the sky as before. This is particularly true of the Patriot system, which sends up multiple missiles that are often larger than the ones being shot down. The rockets themselves are visually aimed indirect fire weapons, so they were never that accurate in the first place, and they simply aren't in a position to do as much damage as, for example, the Israeli bombing of hospitals over the last few days. They're scary, sure, and real people are getting hurt, but the casualty rates are never going to hit the tens of thousands like they do under the Israeli bombing of Gaza.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Decades of brutal oppression and theft.

More like antisemitism, but thanks for playing.

And there comes again the inflammatory canard portraying criticisms against Israeli policies being motivated by "more like antisemitism". By doing so, you have attributed to "The Left" and all associated to "The Left" the motive of antisemitism being what directs their criticisms against Israeli policies. You have, not once, built a case that such group is motivated by "more like antisemitism". It is just some hyperbolic inflammatory crap you throw about.

 

[Derec]

Sharon, the butcher of Lebanon, shut down and cleared out Israeli settlements so Gaza could be used as it is being used today...as a killing field...so indiscriminant bombing could be conducted without endangering any Jews.

1. The most that Sharon could be accused of is not stopping Lebanese Phalangist Christians from killing people in a Palestinian "refugee" camp. Hardly a "butcher".
2. The withdrawal was done in a good faith effort at peace. Unfortunately Gazans chose Hamas and terrorism with very predictable, and tragic, results. Imagine if Gazans had chosen, a la Deuteronomy 30, "life and good" instead of "death and evil" and spent their time building a peaceful and free Gaza instead of acquiring and building rockets and digging sophisticated tunnels. They could have something like a Mediterranean paradise by now, instead of the hellhole they have. Decisions have consequences. So do elections.

Now if the Jews came into your homeland and ran you off your own property for a "settlement," .

After Germany lost WWII Poles (among others) gained some territory, pushed many Germans out into remaining German territory and settled in hitherto German territory. Mind you, the war was started by Germany. Why are the 1967 and 1973 wars different?
But in any case, Israel withdrew from the settlements in 2005. Jews even donated greenhouses to Palestinians but they were quickly looted and destroyed.

Even if you are a cold blooded uncaring atheist, there is no reason to give support to the actions of either of these vicious contenders in the middle east. Both sides are demonstrating the violence they have for non-whaever they are.

Israel is defending itself from terrorists whose aim is to destroy Israel. The Gazans are shooting thousands of rockets into Israel and are invading Israel through tunnels. Israel didn't chose this latest escalation in fighting, but it better end it! Leaving Hamas stronger (by for example giving in to any of the demands they have for a ceasefire) is not an option Israel should consider.

They are not our friends...either side.

Israel is actually our friend. Palestinian terrorists seem to be good friends of the far left, but that hasn't changed since the days of Baader-Meinhof and the Entebbe hijacking.

What amazes me is all the speculation of the best way to maximize the position of the Israeli military in Gaza. Why do people on this forum support either side because both sides are ready to oppress atheists. Actually, Christian arabs in the West Bank are mistreated and isolated.So why are we so gung ho for the Israelis? It makes no sense.. I can understand why we don't support radical muslims. so what about rabid Zionists?

Many Jews are actually atheists and Israel is a secular country. Unlike the Islamic theocracy that is Gaza.

I would appreciate having these questions answered clearly and also not being accused of making "the stupidest post."

The problem is that your premises are deeply flawed.

 

[Derec]

More like antisemitism, but thanks for playing.

And there comes again the inflammatory canard portraying criticisms against Israeli policies being motivated by "more like antisemitism". By doing so, you have attributed to "The Left" and all associated to "The Left" the motive of antisemitism being what directs their criticisms against Israeli policies. You have, not once, built a case that such group is motivated by "more like antisemitism". It is just some hyperbolic inflammatory crap you throw about.

"Criticism of Israeli policies" by itself is not antisemitism. But judging Israel on a much stricter standard than all the other countries in the world is. Compare how Israeli defensive actions in Gaza are portrayed by the Left compared to actions of say Syria or even of the US military in places like Pakistan (which the Left abhors as well, but not nearly as much as Israel).
Furthermore, we see that anti-Israel protests (and how many military actions throughout the world draw so many protesters in the first place) in Europe are taking an undeniably antisemitic tone. Chanting of "gas the Jews" or attacks on synagogues are part of these "protests" as well.

 

[Derec]

Absolutely! Dismantle the settlements, create a proper state for Palestine based on shared infrastructure, and integrate the two so that no one can profit from firing rockets at anyone.

Israel tried to end the occupation of Gaza and dismantled all the settlements. The result was the Gaza takeover and a campaign of terror that continues to this day. Israel would be foolish to risk gazafication of the West Bank if they withdraw from there.

The British national anthem calls for the destruction of France and the crushing of Scotland. So what?

Several hundred years ago and from what I gather they were unofficial additions. They certainly do not appear in the modern anthem. So: fail.

Sure they are. I think it's potentially a very successful tactic, far better than previous tactics of suicide bombers, or attacking the settlements themselves.

I don't think so. I think they would much rather still use "guided missiles" aka suicide bombers the better to blow up Israeli civilians. It is no coincidence that the suicide bombings reduced to a trickle after the separation barrier was constructed. Of course the far Left hates the separation barrier just like they hate all the other Israeli tactics designed to keep terrorists at bay.

They certainly are. They're also asking questions about why Israel is in Occupation in the first place, why they are trying to remove Palestinians from their own lands and replace them with settlements, appropriate water, etc. etc.

Again, there are no settlements in Gaza and there haven't been any for almost a decade. Turned out to be a bad move but hindsight is 20/20.
Also, there is no expansion of the settlements in the West Bank, merely building within their boundaries. Therefore, there are no additional Palestinian lands taken for the purpose.

Probably a lot longer than either of us would like. The main problem is that the US blocks any serious movement on this in the name of keeping Israel as a military ally in the middle east.

The problem is that Israel is always pressured to back off before their enemy is decisively crushed. Hamas needs to be destroyed; there will be no peace until then!

Mainly Iran, but also various groups around the area, including Turkish separatists, Egyptian groups, and no doubt several others. They're hardly the latest technology, and there's little quality control, so they're not that hard to get hold of.

The short range Qassams are relatively easy to build. But the longer range rockets that are terrorizing Tel Aviv (including the suspension of air traffic at Ben Gurion) and Jerusalem are huge (333 mm diameter, more than 6 m in length) are Iranian and Iran should be held responsible for them. At the very least all the recent loosening of sanctions should be rescinded.
They also take quite a bit of (solid) rocket fuel which could explain the huge secondary explosions seen on footage of some IDF hits.

Hm.. I'm not sure the Dome is that effective. It's mainly made of anti-missile missiles, so while you do indeed shoot down the rockets, you end up with twice as much high explosive falling from the sky as before.

No, the explosives would have exploded when the original rocket is intercepted. You have the debris but the idea is to have as small fragments as possible.

The number of dead and injured Israelis compared to number of rockets shot has decreased after Iron Dome was deployed, even though Hamas terror rockets became more sophisticated. That is a testament to the effectiveness of the system.

They're scary, sure, and real people are getting hurt, but the casualty rates are never going to hit the tens of thousands like they do under the Israeli bombing of Gaza.

Just because Israel is more effective defending itself than Hamas is in terrorizing Israel doesn't make the former in the wrong. Also you are exaggerating the casualty numbers.

 

[Derec]

Where is the progress?

You can definitely blame Gaza and Hamas for lack of progress. Israel gave Palestinians a trial run. Dismantled all the settlements. Withdrew the military. Jewish donors even purchased the greenhouses in settlements and donated them to the Palestinians. Result? Greenhouses dismantled. Hamas elected. Rockets fired. Tunnels dug. Reign of terror commenced.
Israel is not going to risk having the same happen to a much larger West Bank until they can be sure it will not turn into another Gaza.

That said, West Bank enjoys a much higher quality of life than Gaza. So that's something.

- - - Updated - - -

You know that thing I said about Zionist apologetics using the language of abusers to justify Israel's policies? You're doing it.

Factually incorrect.

 

[Togo]

2. The withdrawal was done in a good faith effort at peace. Unfortunately Gazans chose Hamas and terrorism with very predictable, and tragic, results.

Well of course they did. They'd been robbed of land, freedom of movement, and control of their own borders, and were sitting in a giant crowded prison camp watched over by Israeli soldiers.

Imagine if Gazans had chosen, a la Deuteronomy 30, "life and good" instead of "death and evil" and spent their time building a peaceful and free Gaza instead of acquiring and building rockets and digging sophisticated tunnels. They could have something like a Mediterranean paradise by now, instead of the hellhole they have.

How do have a free Gaza when you can't control your own border, imports, exports, etc?

Some people would rather be free.

Decisions have consequences. So do elections.

Which is precisely why Israel is subject to constant rockets attacks. That's the decision they made.

Now if the Jews came into your homeland and ran you off your own property for a "settlement," .

After Germany lost WWII Poles (among others) gained some territory, pushed many Germans out into remaining German territory.

Cite please.

Mind you, the war was started by Germany. Why are the 1967 and 1973 wars different?

Because they're being used to justify a program of ethnic cleansing 40 years after the fact.

But in any case, Israel withdrew from the settlements in 2005.

But only from settlements within the borders of what is now Gaza, as defined unilaterally by Israel. Not from land taken from people who are now living in Gaza.

Israel is defending itself from...

Whatever you feel Israel is doing, it is doing it while standing on land illegally stolen from the people it is fighting.

I can understand why we don't support radical muslims. so what about rabid Zionists?

Many Jews are actually atheists and Israel is a secular country. Unlike the Islamic theocracy that is Gaza.

I'm not sure the difference is as big as you would like. Israel has a religious constitution, religious assemblies, and a tax code and other laws slanted towards particular religious groups. It openly pursues policies that favour one ethnic/religious group above others, and demands that other countries recognise it not just as a state, but as a state representing a particular religion.

Hamas has a secular government that is largely western educated, with senior members on average better educated (more advanced degrees) than their Israeli counterparts (source Economist review 2007). They pursue policies to encourage freedom of the press (they want to encourage foreign journalists, for obvious reasons), improve healthcare (hence priority given to the new hospitals) and reduce corruption.

Both sides are riven with religious ideology calling for the complete destruction of the other side. Many Palestinians want the Israelis killed or deported from all of Israel, many Israelis want the Palestinians killed or deported from all of Palestine. It's not hard to find violent bigots on both sides. And on both sides the government is dependent on the fanatics of the religious right for support. Hamas probably can't control enough of the militants to stop the rocket attacks, even if they wanted to. Sharon couldn't pull out of the settlements even if he wanted to - his coalition would remove him from power before the order could be carried out.

Hamas are not innocent, or nice, or peaceful. But no discussion of the 'secular' liberties of Israel is complete without confronting the elephant in the room - that they're a nation of religious bigots stealing other people's land.