What should Israel do?

[untermensche]

And what is Left wing hostility toward Israel based on?

Decades of brutal oppression and theft.

 

[Jayjay]

Seems like remains of one soldier have been captured by Hamas. Judging from past experience, Hamas is going to pretend that the soldier is still alive in order to get a better exchange rate...

Here's what Israel should do: Do not negotiate until Hamas gives proof of life or admits the guy is dead. Then make minimal concessions for the remains.

The question is: What is Israel going to do after it gets rid of the rockets and tunnels and withdraws?

Is it going to change the policies that cause the rockets and tunnels? The illegal blockade and quarantine? The illegal expansion of the settlements? The illegal economic restrictions?

Will Israel do one thing to prevent this from happening again?

Most likely, watch out for tunnels in the future. Maybe it will come up with some sort of detection system on Israeli side and collapsing the tunnels before they become a problem, kind of what Iron Dome does for the missiles. I doubt Israel will do anything about the blockade, nor its expansion in West Bank. If anything, the events in Gaza will serve as a distraction from what goes on in West Bank.

The West Bank Palestinians need to start fighting their own battles and not rely on Gaza if they want to achieve anything.

 

[Togo]

The question is: What is Israel going to do after it gets rid of the rockets and tunnels and withdraws?

Is it going to change the policies that cause the rockets and tunnels? The illegal blockade and quarantine? The illegal expansion of the settlements? The illegal economic restrictions?

Will Israel do one thing to prevent this from happening again?

Most likely, watch out for tunnels in the future. Maybe it will come up with some sort of detection system on Israeli side and collapsing the tunnels before they become a problem, kind of what Iron Dome does for the missiles. I doubt Israel will do anything about the blockade, nor its expansion in West Bank. If anything, the events in Gaza will serve as a distraction from what goes on in West Bank.

The West Bank Palestinians need to start fighting their own battles and not rely on Gaza if they want to achieve anything.

That doesn't help the Palestinians confined to the Gaza strip and not allowed to return home.

 

[Derec]

That doesn't help the Palestinians confined to the Gaza strip and not allowed to return home.

By "home" you mean Israel proper?

 

[Derec]

Most likely, watch out for tunnels in the future. Maybe it will come up with some sort of detection system on Israeli side and collapsing the tunnels before they become a problem, kind of what Iron Dome does for the missiles.

I was wondering if drones equipped with ground penetrating radar can be used to detect - and destroy - tunnels as soon as they are dug. And any digging of tunnels - including smuggling tunnels into Egypt - should be seen as clear violation of any future cease fire.

The West Bank Palestinians need to start fighting their own battles and not rely on Gaza if they want to achieve anything.

I hope you don't mean "fighting" literally.

 

[Derec]

And what is Left wing hostility toward Israel based on?

Decades of brutal oppression and theft.

More like antisemitism, but thanks for playing.

 

[Derec]

Wrong. That was simply a massive escalation of an already existing quarantine.

Again, not even other anti-Israel sources claim that. They all talk of "7 years of blockade".

The people of Gaza have not controlled their waters or their airspace since 1967.

They haven't controlled it before 1967 either because Gaza Strip was controlled by Egypt. Before that it was a British Protectorate and before that a part of the Ottoman Empire. Last time Gaza was controlled by its own citizens probably was around the turn of the 1st millennium BCE when it was inhabited by the Philistines (no relation to Palestinians except for the name).

You're right about one thing. The brutal occupation of the Palestinians began in 1967.

Occupation started then, as a result of Israel being attacked. By the way, Palestinian terrorism was a problem even before 1967.

Since then they have never known freedom.

If by "freedom" you mean a sovereign Palestinian state then they have never known freedom.

They have lived with an Israeli boot on their throat the whole time. Sometimes the boot pressed hard and sometimes it let up a bit.

Israel showed that it was more than willing to give up territory captured in their defensive wars. It is terrorism that has prevented a permanent solution to the problem. Palestinians could have had their own state several times over by now, starting with accepting the UN Partition in 1948 and ending with Camp David Summit in 2000.

And what you call terrorism is really called violent resistance to oppression. And it is justified by the oppression. What isn't justified is the never ending oppression.

That you think terrorism is justified speaks volumes about you and the anti-Israel crowd. Things like terrorists blowing themselves up in buses or restaurants or shopping malls is never justified. This kind of terrorism using "guided missiles" has been made difficult due to the border wall so the terrorists have switched to unguided missiles instead.

And the real reason I know you are wrong is because Israel has continually occupied land that doesn't rightfully belong to it.

The pre-1967 border is just the 1949 armistice line. There is nothing sacrosanct about those borders. Israel captured Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip after winning a war imposed on it by five Arab states. Obviously Israel has historical connection to Judea, Samaria and especially East Jerusalem (which is the old part of the city). Therefore, permanent borders should be determined through negotiations with give and take by both sides. Insisting that the 'green line' is the only just border is just arbitrary.

The settlements are proof the Israelis are full of shit.

Settlements are a thorny issue which needs to be resolved through negotiations, not terrorism.

The Charter is a negotiating point. Nothing more. What is real is the severe oppression the Palestinians have lived under for decades.

If you really believe that then you are very naive. However, I don't think you are naive at all.

Until that is seen there is little hope for peace.

Until Palestinians repudiate terrorism and terrorist organizations like Hamas whose objective is destroying Israel there is no hope for peace whatsoever!

 

[Shadowy Man]

Ahh, ok. Now I understand. As long as you aren't *aiming* at them, it's ok.

It has to do with intent.

Yeah, I get that. That justification is used all the time during war. So, you are saying that it's ok to kill civilians who are near militants as long as your intent is to kill the militant and not the civilians.

 

[Jayjay]

I was wondering if drones equipped with ground penetrating radar can be used to detect - and destroy - tunnels as soon as they are dug. And any digging of tunnels - including smuggling tunnels into Egypt - should be seen as clear violation of any future cease fire.

Hamas would not agree to those terms. And in any case Hamas's word alone is meaningless.

I doubt tunnels can be detected from the air over Gaza, but there is certainly no technical reason why some sort of geological detection system cannot be built on the Israeli side on the ground. Israel actually looked into that kind of solutions in early 2000s, but gave it up because nobody thought at the time that tunnels are a serious problem. I think they will dust off those plans in near future.

Smuggling tunnels between Egypt and Gaza probably can never be fully removed, unless Israel reoccupies the border.

The West Bank Palestinians need to start fighting their own battles and not rely on Gaza if they want to achieve anything.

I hope you don't mean "fighting" literally.

Just stating a fact. It's very unlikely that attacks from Gaza to Israel proper is going to budge the settlements in West Bank. If Palestinians want the settlements gone, they will eventually have to move the fight to the settlements. If not, they better get used to their lives in the new Bantustan.

 

[Jayjay]

Most likely, watch out for tunnels in the future. Maybe it will come up with some sort of detection system on Israeli side and collapsing the tunnels before they become a problem, kind of what Iron Dome does for the missiles. I doubt Israel will do anything about the blockade, nor its expansion in West Bank. If anything, the events in Gaza will serve as a distraction from what goes on in West Bank.

The West Bank Palestinians need to start fighting their own battles and not rely on Gaza if they want to achieve anything.

That doesn't help the Palestinians confined to the Gaza strip and not allowed to return home.

What home? I thought majority of Gaza's population was born in Gaza.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, you know the settlements and the supposed occupation are not the cause.

And you're falling for the liberal fallacy that good talk can always bring peace.



They're not dumb enough to commit suicide.

Israel is actively expanding its settlements in the West Bank. That's an undeniable fact! They are doing it by evicting by force Palestinians from THEIR LAND. This also is happening to the Bedoins in the Negev in what is called Israel. It is such a tiny piece of land so locked in conflict...all these many years. No! Loren, perhaps words are not enough. I know they aren't stopping the conflict today, but I also know they do, when the chronicle events support war crimes trials for the likes of Netanyahu. You see, I can't afford to buy the Gazans fighter jets, drones, and other military hardware that would be needed by them to settle things YOUR WAY. I can still object to it and see the wrong in it. I am honestly sorry you do not seem to have that mental capacity. Somehow you must persist in branding a whole people evil.

Yes, Loren, they are NOT DUMB ENOUGH TO COMMIT SUICIDE BUT THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE THEM COMMITTING MURDER IN THEIR PARANOIA.

1) You're not addressing my points at all.

2) There has been no expansion for many years. The activity that gets reported as settlement expansion is the building of structures within the existing settlements. Sometimes buildings in Israel itself are even reported as settlement expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

Seems like remains of one soldier have been captured by Hamas. Judging from past experience, Hamas is going to pretend that the soldier is still alive in order to get a better exchange rate...

Here's what Israel should do: Do not negotiate until Hamas gives proof of life or admits the guy is dead. Then make minimal concessions for the remains.

Yeah. No cease fire until one of those two events happens.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There was no blockade of Gaza when Israel withdrew and abandoned all settlements there.

The blockade was never lifted.

The restrictions on goods, including food and medicine, were never lifted.

Israel withdrew a very small number of settlers that were more trouble than they were worth. Israel removing those settlers was no great release of the Palestinians in Gaza. They still were in effect in a large prison.

There has never been a blockade of either food or medicine.

In the past there was a blockade of any goods going to Hamas or a Hamas-controlled entity. That's a totally different thing.

Yes, there are major shortages of medicine. It's shipped in, Hamas seizes the shipments and then sells it even when it was donated to the hospitals.

- - - Updated - - -

The blockade of a belligerent territory is not illegal.

I love it!

Abuse a people with an illegal quarantine until they get upset enough to try to fight back.

Then use the fact that they are fighting back to justify further oppression.

That's how tyrants have worked for millennia.

We aren't objecting to the fact that they fight back. We are objecting to the means they use to do so.

Or do you think it's appropriate to go into combat holding a baby?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Or do you think it's appropriate to go into combat holding a baby?

Would it be appropriate to shoot through the baby to get the guy holding it?

 

[Togo]

The blockade was never lifted.

The restrictions on goods, including food and medicine, were never lifted.

Israel withdrew a very small number of settlers that were more trouble than they were worth. Israel removing those settlers was no great release of the Palestinians in Gaza. They still were in effect in a large prison.

There has never been a blockade of either food or medicine.

Yes, there has. That's where the infamous comments about 'putting the Palestinians on a diet' came from. The Lancet regularly protests about medical supplies being blocked at the border by Israeli checkpoints, as does Medicine Sans Frontiers

In the past there was a blockade of any goods going to Hamas or a Hamas-controlled entity. That's a totally different thing.

No it isn't. Gaza is a Hamas controlled entity.

 

[untermensche]

The blockade was never lifted.

The restrictions on goods, including food and medicine, were never lifted.

Israel withdrew a very small number of settlers that were more trouble than they were worth. Israel removing those settlers was no great release of the Palestinians in Gaza. They still were in effect in a large prison.

There has never been a blockade of either food or medicine.

That's a lie.

Government releases 'Red Lines' document detailing Gaza food restrictions

http://972mag.com/government-releases-red-lines-document-detailing-gaza-food-restrictions/57883/

And of course the Israeli imposed limits on where the Palestinians can fish, which is illegal, is in effect a restriction on food.

Yes, there are major shortages of medicine. It's shipped in, Hamas seizes the shipments and then sells it even when it was donated to the hospitals.

You don't have any source to support this. It is pulled straight from your ass.

You are merely a waterboy for the master morality. The master can do anything, and any resistance to the master is a crime.

We aren't objecting to the fact that they fight back. We are objecting to the means they use to do so.

Yes of course. The slaves are perfectly free to resist as long as they don't hurt anyone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Or do you think it's appropriate to go into combat holding a baby?

Would it be appropriate to shoot through the baby to get the guy holding it?

That's not a rebuttal. How about addressing what Hamas has actually been doing?

- - - Updated - - -

There has never been a blockade of either food or medicine.

Yes, there has. That's where the infamous comments about 'putting the Palestinians on a diet' came from. The Lancet regularly protests about medical supplies being blocked at the border by Israeli checkpoints, as does Medicine Sans Frontiers

That comment was about a proposal, not about something that was implemented.

And things do get stuck at the border when Hamas attacks and the border crossing gets closed. That's not the same thing as a blockade.

In the past there was a blockade of any goods going to Hamas or a Hamas-controlled entity. That's a totally different thing.

No it isn't. Gaza is a Hamas controlled entity.

But the restrictions did not apply to individuals or businesses there that weren't Hamas or Hamas fronts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And of course the Israeli imposed limits on where the Palestinians can fish, which is illegal, is in effect a restriction on food.

The restrictions don't matter--most fish are caught close to shore anyway.

Yes, there are major shortages of medicine. It's shipped in, Hamas seizes the shipments and then sells it even when it was donated to the hospitals.

You don't have any source to support this. It is pulled straight from your ass.

Admittedly old but Google had no problem finding it: http://www.worthynews.com/4552-hamas-seizes-another-shipment-of-humanitarian-aid-un-suspends-aid

It's simply routine and not newsworthy so you'll find little mention of it.

And a bit more recent, the PA saying Hamas is doing it:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ority-stopped-gaza-medical-shipments-1.338226

We aren't objecting to the fact that they fight back. We are objecting to the means they use to do so.

Yes of course. The slaves are perfectly free to resist as long as they don't hurt anyone.

Fight in uniform, fight the IDF rather than civilians.

 

[Arctish]

The only reason there is a blockade of Gaza is because of continuous terrorist attacks from there against Israel by Hamas (supported by most Gazans!) and other terrorist groups.

Not exactly. The blockade isn't there simply to block weapons and explosives. It's part of a larger policy of containment and isolation designed to keep the Gazans suppressed, compliant, and utterly dependent on Israel for basic needs like food and water. That's been the plan since Gaza was captured in 1967.

The military rule of Gaza began immediately. A blockade of goods wasn't possible until Gaza was isolated. Israel began that undertaking in 1994 with the construction of concrete walls topped with concertina wire, and the construction of blockhouses, sniper nests, and gun emplacements. BTW this was happening while the Oslo Accords were being negotiated. Israel was preparing to withdraw it's military and settlers while still retaining complete control of the Strip.

The last segment of wall cutting Gaza off from Egypt went up in 2005. This was when the Zionist settlers and IDF were repositioned to the Israeli side of the barrier. Hamas came to power in 2006, riding a wave of resentment against Fatah leaders that sat by and did nothing while the Gazans were imprisoned. The blockade went into effect in 2007, when Hamas kicked Fatah's ass in the battle for control of the territory.

Remember when Hamas blew up part of the wall and happy Gazans flooded into Egypt to go shopping for groceries? That was Hamas doing a public service for their constituents. That was them telling the Gazans that if they just hold on to faith, hope, and courage it will someday be possible to throw off their oppressors. That's the situation in which Gazans live.

Gazans don't blame Hamas for something that was done to them years before Hamas came to power. They blame the ones who did it.

And the only reason there are almost 2 million people living there is that they breed like rabbits.

I know, right? Prisoners aren't supposed to have sex with other prisoners. That's just wrong.

Oh and for a territory that supposedly has "genocide" committed against it, Gaza enjoys 6th lowest death rate of any country/territory in the world.

No one said the genocide was over and done. Some posters are saying it's underway.

It is inevitable the prisoners will try to kill the guards and tunnel their way out. The European Jews who founded the State of Israel had experience with that. I don't know why this generation is so outraged when the people trapped in Gaza do the same thing.

You are confusing cause and effect in a feeble attempt at moral equivalence.

No, the point wasn't moral equivalence. The point was the lessons of history being forgotten, or at least overlooked. The European Jews who founded Israel know very well what it means to have an entire community imprisoned. They know the prisoners will dig tunnels, chip holes in the walls, follow sewer lines and storm drains, and otherwise establish ways to come and go without attracting the attention of the guards. I'm not just talking about the Holocaust here. Have you ever heard of the Roman Ghetto? Jews were locked in at night for 300 years. Do you think they all stayed put, night after night?

There was no blockade of Gaza when Israel withdrew and abandoned all settlements there. Gaza responded with a campaign of terror that lasts until this day and which is the cause of not only the blockade but also of all military action against Gaza in the last decade.

There was no blockade until a blockade was possible, and it took a lot of time, effort, and money to make it possible. It took years of planning, construction, and negotiations with Egypt. I think it's a mistake to discount just how much it took to isolate Gaza. And it think it's a mistake to discount how vindictive and petty the blockade was at it's height, or how crippling it's been in the long run.

There was no need to block the importation of chocolate, dried fruit, coriander, cheese, chemotherapy drugs, and wheelchairs but Israel felt like punishing the Gazans, so Raisinettes became contraband and fried rice became a rich man's supper. Meanwhile, the beating will continue until morale improves and the Gazans learn the proper way to welcome their new overlords.

 

[Arctish]

Factually incorrect. The blockade of Gaza was not imposed until 2007.

Only to those with no memory. Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians non-stop for decades.

Factually incorrect. Israel occupied hitherto Egyptian (Gaza) and Jordanian (West Bank) territory after being attacked by Arabs in 1967. Since then it made peace treaties with them and returned most of the territory captured in 1967 and 1973 wars.
As far as Palestinians, when they did not engage in high levels of terrorism Palestinians enjoyed a great degree of freedom. It is the terrorism that necessitates Israel cracking down and imposing restrictions and brings Palestinians farther and farther away from a state of their own. They need to renounce terrorism once and for all.

You know that thing I said about Zionist apologetics using the language of abusers to justify Israel's policies? You're doing it.

 

[Arctish]

They did. It's just they were forced to reengage soon afterwards due to behavior of Hamas. Had Gazans repudiated Hamas and elected to live in peace they could have earned the trust to get a much greater degree of sovereignty by now.

What, like the West Bank? Who haven't been firing rockets, have been living in comparative peace, and have far less sovereignty than Gaza does.

This is such an important point, and so often it's merely brushed aside.

Fatah has chosen to abandon the tactics of violence and seek a diplomatic solution. The West Bank hasn't been firing rockets or sending strike teams into Israel. So where is the payoff? Israel continues to expand the settlements, there's no lessening of the Occupation or the oppression. Palestinian water is still being diverted away from Palestinian farms and into Israeli settlements and Israel proper. Recognition of the rights of Palestinians to live in Palestine is nowhere to be seen.

The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist decades ago. Where is the Israeli recognition of the right of the Palestinian State to exist?

Where is the progress?