What should Israel do?

[untermensche]

So what is the opinion of the anti-Israel posters on the many tunnels Hamas dug into Israel and which it uses to infiltrate into Israeli territory?
Note especially that these tunnels must have been dug over a lengthy period of time and that they take a lot of cement to reinforce, which Gazans claim they desperately need for "civilian" projects.

First of all, it's not anti-Israel. It's anti-Israeli apartheid policies.

The tunnels are a response to decades of unending oppression.

Israel could get rid of the tunnels. Give up their dreams of expansion further into the West Bank and make peace. For 50 years Israel has chosen expansion over peace.

 

[Togo]

You have no facts. You live in a dream world where the ethnic cleansing done by the Israelis in 1948 is some glorious independence.

There is a big difference between closing your borders and ethnic cleansing.

I thought you supported ethnic cleansing, Loren?

My understand of your position was:

(i) There can't be peace between Israelis and Palestinians, because of the ethnic makeup of the Palestinians
(ii) That Israel has a right not to live under constant attack
and thus that
(iii) The best feasible outcome for all concerned is the forcible deportation of all Palestinians from the area of the West Bank.

Which bits have I got wrong?

 

[Perspicuo]

It is clear there is no political solution. The Palestinians. Persians, and Arabs in general can't get along with each other let alone make peace with Israel.

Libya, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq are a mess. Iran is supplying Hamas and trying to destabilize the Arab monarchies.

Israel is an in Alamo existential battle.

Whatever your criticisms are o Israel, it is the only stable state with western style freedoms in theregion. If Israel falls or becomes diminished it opens the way for connected extremists from Libya to Syria to Gaza to ISIS in Iraq, andthat would be the greatest tragedy.

The rain of rockets is unbearable.

If I were POTUS I would support aggressive Israeli action to end the attacks from Gaza once and for all, and offer to provide air support and offshore naval assistance.

Obama's approach of foreign policy by reason, negotiation, and talk has failed. The only currency is power.

LOL

Hamas: "We surrender and will never attack you again. Here, take the lands that were once ours, and here, have some more. We're sorry. I'll tell mom to have you over for some cookies and milk."

Be sure to tell John Wayne so he can help.

 

[Arctish]

So what is the opinion of the anti-Israel posters on the many tunnels Hamas dug into Israel and which it uses to infiltrate into Israeli territory?
Note especially that these tunnels must have been dug over a lengthy period of time and that they take a lot of cement to reinforce, which Gazans claim they desperately need for "civilian" projects.

I think Israel should give up on the idea of keeping millions of people in a giant prison. It is inevitable the prisoners will try to kill the guards and tunnel their way out. The European Jews who founded the State of Israel had experience with that. I don't know why this generation is so outraged when the people trapped in Gaza do the same thing.

 

[Togo]

It is clear there is no political solution. The Palestinians. Persians, and Arabs in general can't get along with each other let alone make peace with Israel.

Libya, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq are a mess. Iran is supplying Hamas and trying to destabilize the Arab monarchies.

Israel is an in Alamo existential battle.

Whatever your criticisms are o Israel, it is the only stable state with western style freedoms in theregion. If Israel falls or becomes diminished it opens the way for connected extremists from Libya to Syria to Gaza to ISIS in Iraq, andthat would be the greatest tragedy.

The rain of rockets is unbearable.

If I were POTUS I would support aggressive Israeli action to end the attacks from Gaza once and for all, and offer to provide air support and offshore naval assistance.

Obama's approach of foreign policy by reason, negotiation, and talk has failed. The only currency is power.

So you're proposing ethnic cleansing of Palestine?

 

[Jayjay]

Seems like remains of one soldier have been captured by Hamas. Judging from past experience, Hamas is going to pretend that the soldier is still alive in order to get a better exchange rate...

Here's what Israel should do: Do not negotiate until Hamas gives proof of life or admits the guy is dead. Then make minimal concessions for the remains.

 

[Derec]

I think Israel should give up on the idea of keeping millions of people in a giant prison.

The only reason there is a blockade of Gaza is because of continuous terrorist attacks from there against Israel by Hamas (supported by most Gazans!) and other terrorist groups.
And the only reason there are almost 2 million people living there is that they breed like rabbits.

Oh and for a territory that supposedly has "genocide" committed against it, Gaza enjoys 6th lowest death rate of any country/territory in the world.

It is inevitable the prisoners will try to kill the guards and tunnel their way out. The European Jews who founded the State of Israel had experience with that. I don't know why this generation is so outraged when the people trapped in Gaza do the same thing.

You are confusing cause and effect in a feeble attempt at moral equivalence. There was no blockade of Gaza when Israel withdrew and abandoned all settlements there. Gaza responded with a campaign of terror that lasts until this day and which is the cause of not only the blockade but also of all military action against Gaza in the last decade.

 

[untermensche]

Seems like remains of one soldier have been captured by Hamas. Judging from past experience, Hamas is going to pretend that the soldier is still alive in order to get a better exchange rate...

Here's what Israel should do: Do not negotiate until Hamas gives proof of life or admits the guy is dead. Then make minimal concessions for the remains.

The question is: What is Israel going to do after it gets rid of the rockets and tunnels and withdraws?

Is it going to change the policies that cause the rockets and tunnels? The illegal blockade and quarantine? The illegal expansion of the settlements? The illegal economic restrictions?

Will Israel do one thing to prevent this from happening again?

 

[Derec]

First of all, it's not anti-Israel. It's anti-Israeli apartheid policies.

When you wrongly define Israel's very existence with "apartheid policies" you are very anti-Israel.
Israel disengaged from Gaza in 2005. The only reason they are forced to reengage over and over again is the continuous campaign of terror by groups that want to destroy Israel.

tunnels are a response to decades of unending oppression.

No, they are a tactic by an Islamist group whose objective is destruction of Israel.

Israel could get rid of the tunnels. Give up their dreams of expansion further into the West Bank and make peace. For 50 years Israel has chosen expansion over peace.

There are no settlements in Gaza. There is no occupation of Gaza. Gazans had a chance to use the 2005 disengagement to live in peace and prosper. Instead they chose terrorism. They sowed wind and shall now reap the whirlwind.

 

[untermensche]

There was no blockade of Gaza when Israel withdrew and abandoned all settlements there.

The blockade was never lifted.

The restrictions on goods, including food and medicine, were never lifted.

Israel withdrew a very small number of settlers that were more trouble than they were worth. Israel removing those settlers was no great release of the Palestinians in Gaza. They still were in effect in a large prison.

 

[Derec]

The question is: What is Israel going to do after it gets rid of the rockets and tunnels and withdraws?

Have a few years of relative peace and quiet until Hamas rearms and mowing the lawn is necessary again. After Cast lead there were almost 4 years until the next operation was necessary. After Pillar of Defense it was less than 2 years. Obviously it pays to do the job properly. Maybe an operation more through than Cast Lead can lead to 5+ years of relative peace and quit.

Is it going to change the policies that cause the rockets and tunnels? The illegal blockade and quarantine? The illegal expansion of the settlements? The illegal economic restrictions?

The blockade of a belligerent territory is not illegal. Economic restrictions on a belligerent territory are not illegal. An example - we all can see now what they use building materials for - terrorist tunnels. So it makes sense to restrict import of them. That is not "collective punishment" but a military necessity. Similar to fishing restrictions. You can't allow fishermen to go out many miles when they use that freedom to rendezvous with smuggling vessels.

Will Israel do one thing to prevent this from happening again?

The only people that can really prevent it is the Gazans themselves. Until they want to live in peace more than they want to destroy Israel and kick the Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Popular Committees terrorists out nothing will really change.

 

[untermensche]

When you wrongly define Israel's very existence with "apartheid policies" you are very anti-Israel.
Israel disengaged from Gaza in 2005. The only reason they are forced to reengage over and over again is the continuous campaign of terror by groups that want to destroy Israel.

Israel removed a few settlers and the troops necessary to protect them. They never disengaged. They maintained their illegal quarantine.

tunnels are a response to decades of unending oppression.

No, they are a tactic by an Islamist group whose objective is destruction of Israel.

Only to those with no memory. Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians non-stop for decades.

Oppression is what dug those tunnels. And not recognizing that means this whole bloody Israeli charade will keep occurring over and over as it has for decades.

Israel could get rid of the tunnels. Give up their dreams of expansion further into the West Bank and make peace. For 50 years Israel has chosen expansion over peace.

There are no settlements in Gaza. There is no occupation of Gaza. Gazans had a chance to use the 2005 disengagement to live in peace and prosper. Instead they chose terrorism. They sowed wind and shall now reap the whirlwind.

There was no disengagement. Not only was the illegal quarantine maintained but when the people of Gaza made the mistake of voting while Muslim, instead of working with the government the Palestinians elected, Israel punished them for voting the wrong way.

 

[untermensche]

The blockade of a belligerent territory is not illegal.

I love it!

Abuse a people with an illegal quarantine until they get upset enough to try to fight back.

Then use the fact that they are fighting back to justify further oppression.

That's how tyrants have worked for millennia.

 

[Derec]

The blockade was never lifted.

The blockade didn't exist then.

The restrictions on goods, including food and medicine, were never lifted.

Gaza can get food and medicine through Israel. Also fuel and electricity. But there are restrictions on things that can and are used to attack Israel.

Israel withdrew a very small number of settlers that were more trouble than they were worth. Israel removing those settlers was no great release of the Palestinians in Gaza. They still were in effect in a large prison.

There was no blockade of Gaza when Israel withdrew. The blockade was imposed when Gazans used their freedom to attack Israel.

- - - Updated - - -

Abuse a people with an illegal quarantine until they get upset enough to try to fight back.

Getting cause and effect mixed up again.

 

[untermensche]

The blockade didn't exist then.

The restrictions on goods, including food and medicine, were never lifted.

Gaza can get food and medicine through Israel. Also fuel and electricity. But there are restrictions on things that can and are used to attack Israel.

Israel withdrew a very small number of settlers that were more trouble than they were worth. Israel removing those settlers was no great release of the Palestinians in Gaza. They still were in effect in a large prison.

There was no blockade of Gaza when Israel withdrew. The blockade was imposed when Gazans used their freedom to attack Israel.

- - - Updated - - -

Abuse a people with an illegal quarantine until they get upset enough to try to fight back.

Getting cause and effect mixed up again.

You simply don't know the history.

The modern blockades of Gaza begin in 2000.

Israel takes out the few remaining settlers in 2005.

And never did the people of Gaza have control over their waters or airspace since.

Israel never disengaged. To say so is a lie.

 

[Derec]

Israel removed a few settlers and the troops necessary to protect them. They never disengaged. They maintained their illegal quarantine.

Factually incorrect. The blockade of Gaza was not imposed until 2007.

Only to those with no memory. Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians non-stop for decades.

Factually incorrect. Israel occupied hitherto Egyptian (Gaza) and Jordanian (West Bank) territory after being attacked by Arabs in 1967. Since then it made peace treaties with them and returned most of the territory captured in 1967 and 1973 wars.
As far as Palestinians, when they did not engage in high levels of terrorism Palestinians enjoyed a great degree of freedom. It is the terrorism that necessitates Israel cracking down and imposing restrictions and brings Palestinians farther and farther away from a state of their own. They need to renounce terrorism once and for all.

Oppression is what dug those tunnels. And not recognizing that means this whole bloody Israeli charade will keep occurring over and over as it has for decades.

No. Hamas is what dug these tunnels. From the Hamas charter:

The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

There was no disengagement. Not only was the illegal quarantine maintained but when the people of Gaza made the mistake of voting while Muslim, instead of working with the government the Palestinians elected, Israel punished them for voting the wrong way.

Not "voting while Muslim" but "voting for an Islamist terrorist organization whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel". Why should Israel tolerate a neighbor whose government wants to destroy them?

 

[Derec]

You simply don't know the history.

I know you don't

The modern blockades of Gaza begin in 2000.

No, the current blockade began in 2007. Even pro-Palestinian sources speak of "8 years of blockade" and not "14 years of blockade" so you need to check your talking points, comrade.

There was a crackdown in 2000 as well, that's true, but what was its cause?
Oh yes, the so-called "Second Intifada" or the campaign of terrorism started by Yassir Arafat after he walked out of Camp David negotiations with Clinton and Barak (Ehud, not Obama).
Imagine that, Israel reacting to terrorism perpetuated against it. The Left would rather they do nothing and take it as the good little victims they want the Jews to be.

And never did the people of Gaza have control over their waters or airspace since.

They need to earn the trust to get this control. Everything they did since 2005 shows beyond a shadow of a doubt it would be suicidal to give them control of airspace and waters.

Israel never disengaged. To say so is a lie.

They did. It's just they were forced to reengage soon afterwards due to behavior of Hamas. Had Gazans repudiated Hamas and elected to live in peace they could have earned the trust to get a much greater degree of sovereignty by now. They chose poorly though.

 

[untermensche]

Factually incorrect. The blockade of Gaza was not imposed until 2007.

Wrong. That was simply a massive escalation of an already existing quarantine.

The people of Gaza have not controlled their waters or their airspace since 1967.

Only to those with no memory. Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians non-stop for decades.

Factually incorrect. Israel occupied hitherto Egyptian (Gaza) and Jordanian (West Bank) territory after being attacked by Arabs in 1967. Since then it made peace treaties with them and returned most of the territory captured in 1967 and 1973 wars.
As far as Palestinians, when they did not engage in high levels of terrorism Palestinians enjoyed a great degree of freedom. It is the terrorism that necessitates Israel cracking down and imposing restrictions and brings Palestinians farther and farther away from a state of their own. They need to renounce terrorism once and for all.

You're right about one thing. The brutal occupation of the Palestinians began in 1967.

Since then they have never known freedom. They have lived with an Israeli boot on their throat the whole time. Sometimes the boot pressed hard and sometimes it let up a bit.

And what you call terrorism is really called violent resistance to oppression. And it is justified by the oppression. What isn't justified is the never ending oppression.

And the real reason I know you are wrong is because Israel has continually occupied land that doesn't rightfully belong to it. The settlements are proof the Israelis are full of shit. The country began with ethnic cleansing, it has practiced brutal oppression for decades, and it steals what doesn't belong to it. All it's talk of security is nonsense. They want more and more land, not security. They will worry about security when they get all of what they want.

Oppression is what dug those tunnels. And not recognizing that means this whole bloody Israeli charade will keep occurring over and over as it has for decades.

No. Hamas is what dug these tunnels. From the Hamas charter:

The Charter is a negotiating point. Nothing more. What is real is the severe oppression the Palestinians have lived under for decades.

Until that is seen there is little hope for peace.

 

[Togo]

They did. It's just they were forced to reengage soon afterwards due to behavior of Hamas. Had Gazans repudiated Hamas and elected to live in peace they could have earned the trust to get a much greater degree of sovereignty by now.

What, like the West Bank? Who haven't been firing rockets, have been living in comparative peace, and have far less sovereignty than Gaza does.

 

[Derec]

If Gaza is "Israel" your first sentence might be right. These tunnels are mostly between Egypt and Gaza or Gaza and Gaza. You should pay a little more attention to the news on these matters.

No, it is you who should pay attention to the news. There are many Hamas tunnels that terminate in Israel and are used for incursions by terrorists. Needless to say, since the Gaza-Egypt and intra-Gaza tunnels are used for terrorist purposes as well Israel is well within its rights (it is even their duty) to destroy as many of those as they can.
This seems to be the first tunnel into Israel found (video is from 4 days ago) and there have been others found since then:

Cement they would have could only come in through the tunnels as cement is blockaded from Gaza by the IDF.

And this proves the restriction serves a legitimate security/military purpose and is not a case of "collective punishment" as pro-Palestinian commentators claim. Furthermore it shows that it is imperative to destroy any smuggling tunnels into Gaza and that destroying such tunnels should be excluded from any long-term cease fire agreement.

Body counts keep rising...now over 500 humans dead, many of these women and children...and over 3,000 injured. Looks like an attack on a civilian population to me...a definite war crime...regardless of what Hamas does.

No, Hamas is solely responsible. They are the ones that declined the cease fire. They are the ones shooting from civilian objects, like from next to a school. They are the ones using human shields and telling Gazans not to heed IDF's warnings to evacuate areas that are scheduled for operations. They are the ones hiding rockets and explosives in civilian objects (including UNRWA schools).
Without Hamas there wouldn't be 500+ dead and 3000+ wounded. Civilian casualties are never completely avoidable but Israel takes utmost care to avoid them. However, that is doubly difficult when their enemy actually wants to maximize civilian casualties on their own side. So you are right in a way, there are war crimes committed here, but by Hamas et al, not by Israel!

American cynicism against Palestinians is based on a pro Israel propaganda media in the U.S.

And what is Left wing hostility toward Israel based on?

Civilian protests in Israel proper (if there can be said to be such a thing)

So you are denying the right of Israel to exist?
\

Israel isn't much on freedom of speech, it appears.

Israel is actually big on freedom of speech. Much more so than Gaza for sure. But one can understand hostility toward Fifth Column leftist who sound like spokesmen for Hamas while thousands of Hamas rockets are raining down on Israel.

This war is accompanied by a full on propaganda machine. People are being murdered over there and all we hear about is Hamas rockets.

Fatalities in warfare are not "murder victims". There have been murders, three of Israeli youths, one of a Palestinian youth. These cases are a microcosm of the moral chasm between the two sides. The murders of Israeli boys were celebrated and cheered by Palestinians, while the murder of the Palestinian boy was condemned and suspects were quickly found and charged.

If your neighborhood was shelled as Gaza neighborhoods are being shelled, I am sure that there would be nobody who would not support some sort of resistance.

It is the so-called "resistance" that is the cause of the legitimate Israeli operations, not a defense against them. It is like Nazis being the cause of bombardment of German cities. It would be ridiculous to say that Germans embraced Nazism because the evil Allies bombed and shelled their cities!

This is especially true if your home is always on the chopping block...always a possible target on any day at any time with any size high explosive weapon. When you object at having to live like that, you are labeled a Hamas supporter. Where do you think Hamas gets its recruits?

If you don't want your home to be a target don't let Hamas shoot rockets from there or store rockets there etc. Gazans need to get their heads out from their asses and get rid of terrorist scum. Only then can they live in peace. As long as they support and aid and abet Hamas and other terrorist organizations they are complicit in their terrorist activities.