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What should Israel do?

And you are asking the Palestinians to do the same, by requiring that they drop the right of return before the negotiations even begin. For once, you could try to apply the same standard to Jews and Arabs.

Both sides know that the right of return is incompatible with Israel's continued existence.

There's no point in negotiating when one side is insisting on the other's destruction as an objective. The objective is to find a position that both can accept--one should not include points which are utterly impossible for either side.
What is impossible is not an objective notion. All it means is what each party thinks is acceptable at the time, and that is covered during the negotiations. If party A comes to the table with a proposition that is impossible for party B to accept, but party A can be persuaded to give it up in exchange for something else, then it's not un unreasonable starting position. Like you said, it's poor negotiation to have your starting position be the same as your end position.

Besides, even Israel isn't following your imaginary rules of negotiation. In the ongoing truce negotiations with Hamas, Israel is coming to the table proposing that Gaza is demilitarized, even though everyone jnows that is utterly impossible for Hamas to accept.
 
Both sides know that the right of return is incompatible with Israel's continued existence.

Which is why the demand is for the Right to Return to be addressed in some form - generally as an acknowledgement accompanied by monetary compensation.

You've been told this before.

Yeah, they want you to believe that. That's not what they actually say, though. When they're speaking in Arabic they make it clear they aren't going to budge.
 
Which is why the demand is for the Right to Return to be addressed in some form - generally as an acknowledgement accompanied by monetary compensation.

You've been told this before.

Yeah, they want you to believe that. That's not what they actually say, though. When they're speaking in Arabic they make it clear they aren't going to budge.

That's what they say on Arabic TV. Abbas is a regular on many Egyptian channels.
 
Why do you keep saying "should" like there's some moral imperative we're supposed to be applying? If you insist on wearing your historian hat, then let's analyze history.

Historically, the question is about what could have happened. The Hebron riots and many others were instigated by a variety of factors -- and people -- all with different origins. The Zionists didn't do themselves any favors by antagonizing the Arab majority, and Faisal's mention of "Turkish intrigue" in the prior agreement nods in that direction as well. Neutralizing the problem and seeking a fair and mutual agreement for all demographics could still have been possible even in the 1930s; that process would have been much more difficult in the short term (It sure as hell was in Lebanon) but it would have ultimately resulted in a unified Palestine with an either secular or non-denominational coalition government.

That is not, however, what the Zionists wanted, and they had no reason to put in all that work to lay the groundwork for peaceful coexistence. Instead they went in the exact opposite direction: "If the Arabs don't like us, then FUCK EM!"

I keep saying should because it's the past tense of shall - to expect or intend to.
Unless you have a time machine capable of reaching the 1920s "should" or "shall" is irrelevant.

That's quite the peculiar rejection. You would have us believe the land was stolen (read - purchased) and that the intentions of David Ben-Gurion in the 30s (following a decade of violence in response to immigration specifically agreed to in Article 4 of Faisal-Weizmann) should contradict the stated intentions at the time this document was signed?
That's what Ben Gurion himself claimed, and I'm inclined to believe him. The decision to clearly isolate Jewish and Arab districts in geographically isolated areas wasn't part of the original agreement, they were supposed to be cooperating to figure out how to most effectively and fairly use the land together. The moment you start drawing sovereign borders between them, that cooperation ends. The Zionists were not happy about that arrangement, but they accepted it as a compromise leading to annexation of the whole as a later date.

And you'll have us believe that a peaceful coexistence would have been possible following the events of the '20s?
Of course it would have been possible. It just wouldn't have been easy. Jews and Arabs had lived relatively peacefully together under the Ottoman Empire, and mutual hostility between the Arabs and the newcomers could have been mitigated over time. But only if the newcomers were encouraged to acknowledge their status as new residents and guests in what was and had for hundreds of years BEEN somebody else's country. That, too, was something the Zionists were unwilling to do.

Can you articulate the specific terms of this potential detente
Not with my TARDIS on the fritz, no. But a good model can be found in the reconciliation efforts of South Africa, the end of the tribal disputes in Vietnam after the war, and even the relative calm that settled on the South after the end of Jim Crow. The latter example may be particularly telling; multiple white-on-black race riots and genuine acts of terror gave way -- eventually -- to a relatively peaceful state of cohabitation. The only fly in THAT ointment was continued instigation by the KKK, and what made it possible in the end was the decline of the KKK's political influence among the Dixiecrats. If the more fanatical of the Zionist bloc (the ones that later formed the Irgun and the Lehi) could be similarly isolated, room could have been made for a more peaceful social order between the Jews and the Arabs.
 
If you'll remember, approximately 30 gigabucks were allocated as part of the Camp David accord specifically as a compensatory fund. As it stood, one of the sticking points in that deal for Arafat was compensation versus physical right of return.

Yes, the issues were whether some people should be allowed to return anyway, provided that their numbers didn't destabilise the demographics, whether the funds should be under Palestinian or Israeli control, and to what extent Palestinians who were no longer resident in Palestine should benefit. Arafat baulked at giving up a physical return for a cash settlement the disbursement of which would be controlled by his enemies.

Since then there have been several peace initiatives that spell out a cash settlement in some detail, including the Hamas proposals after they got elected, two sets of Egyptian proposals, and Abbas' televised of the scheme. Physical return in all these schemes is limited to very small numbers, precisely to avoid the demographics issue. It's a solved problem.

So this is the first I've heard that the funds would have been under Israeli control, and since I don't recall hearing of such a contingency when the summit was underway, I spent a couple of hours researching the matter. I haven't been able to find any contemporary reports that make such as statement, and even Abbas' recounting of why the accords failed does not mention such a contingency.

The chronologically closest report I've been able to get my hands on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/26/w...t-s-allies-say-he-stands-taller-home-for.html

Do you have a credible source which can support this claim? Everything I've found, whether written by putatively neutral, pro-Israeli, or pro-Palestinian authors seems to indicate that the right of return full-stop was a sticking point and then goes on to justify one or the other side's justification for their stance on physical right of return.
 
It was a lie then, and it's a lie now.

You're missing the important part
The important part was the law that was actually quoted in the article, not some blogger's interpretation of it. The LAW doesn't say what he -- or YOU -- wants it to say, which is probably why you think it's unimportant.

Because with you, ALL facts are unimportant if they don't fit your preconceptions.

You had the article in front of you yet you still are blind to what it's saying.
You had the LAW right in front of you and you ignore it in favor of the blogger's unashamedly biased interpretation.

Does being<edit> really not bother you that much?
 
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But only if the newcomers were encouraged to acknowledge their status as new residents and guests in what was and had for hundreds of years BEEN somebody else's country. That, too, was something the Zionists were unwilling to do.

Your Tardis seems to be working fine here. What I don't see is any actual evidence that the newcomers committed any transgression other than immigrate to the region to draw a violent reaction. It's curious to claim that statements made in the 30s caused the violence in the 20s rather than the reverse but I think ultimately it's going to be impossible for us to have anything resembling a meaningful discussion.

Feel free to have the last word if you'd like it.
 
Yes, the issues were whether some people should be allowed to return anyway, provided that their numbers didn't destabilise the demographics, whether the funds should be under Palestinian or Israeli control, and to what extent Palestinians who were no longer resident in Palestine should benefit. Arafat baulked at giving up a physical return for a cash settlement the disbursement of which would be controlled by his enemies.

Since then there have been several peace initiatives that spell out a cash settlement in some detail, including the Hamas proposals after they got elected, two sets of Egyptian proposals, and Abbas' televised of the scheme. Physical return in all these schemes is limited to very small numbers, precisely to avoid the demographics issue. It's a solved problem.

So this is the first I've heard that the funds would have been under Israeli control
C'mon, deepak, I was a political vegetable in 2000 and even I remember that much.

Thirty seconds worth of googling turned back this:
At the 2000 Camp David summit 52 years later, Israel offered to set up an international fund for the compensation for the property which had lost by 1948 Palestinian refugees, to which Israel would contribute. Israel offered to allow 100,000 refugees to return on the basis of humanitarian considerations or family reunification. All other refugees would be resettled in their present places of residents, the Palestinian state, or in third-party countries, with Israel contributing $30 billion to fund their resettlement. During this time, most of the original refugees had died without any compensation. Israel demanded that in exchange, Arafat forever abandon the right of return, and Arafat's refusal has been cited as one of the leading causes of the summit's failure.
They basically gave it as a "take it or leave it" offer and setup the deal in such a way that Arafat would have absolutely no leverage of any kind of Israel reneged on the deal or if its legal system started denying compensation to Palestinians for no good reason (as if Israeli courts have ever been anything but totally indulgent to Palestinians:innocent1:). It's said that Arafat "balked," even in news reports at the time, which bothered me quite a bit because it was OVERWHELMINGLY clear that he had turned down the offer because the Israeli delegation publicly stated they would not under any circumstances discuss a counter-offer or a compromise. They had worked out that proposal with Clinton alone and didn't want to hear anything from Arafat except a yes or a no.

The reason I remember this so clearly is because it is one of the very first things I ever really researched when I was younger, trying to get to the bottom of it (my school had a REALLY good internet connection:D). And analyst after analyst all came to the same conclusion I did, the same conclusion that news anchors carefully avoided: Israel wasn't looking for a 'yes.' They had Arafat by the balls and they were looking to bury him, and Clinton was stupid enough to play along.

Do you have a credible source which can support this claim? Everything I've found, whether written by putatively neutral, pro-Israeli, or pro-Palestinian authors seems to indicate that the right of return full-stop was a sticking point and then goes on to justify one or the other side's justification for their stance on physical right of return.

I don't know what you've been reading, but that's not anything like what I've been reading OR what I remember. The issue was actually very similar to what keeps happening between Hamas and Israel now: the Israelis unilaterally construct what they claim is a perfectly fair compromise, demand the Palestinians accept it as-is, and then play the victim card when the Palestinians reject it. The right of return was one of the very few things considered absolutely non-negotiable; the other factors -- Israeli control of west bank areas, the settlement problem and the dismantling of terrorist organizations -- were all discussed, but invariably under the terms of what the Palestinians were supposed to do. Arafat's proposal that Israel withdraw from the West Bank was rejected entirely.
 
Your Tardis seems to be working fine here. What I don't see is any actual evidence that the newcomers committed any transgression other than immigrate to the region to draw a violent reaction.
You fail at google.

The Western Wall is one of the holiest of Jewish sites, sacred because it is a remnant of the ancient wall that once enclosed the Jewish Second Temple.[12][13] The Jews, through the practice of centuries, had established a right of access to the Wailing Wall for the purposes of their devotions. As part of the Temple Mount the Western Wall was under the control of the Muslim religious trust, the Waqf.[14] Muslims consider the wall to be part of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest site in Islam, and according to Islamic tradition the place where the prophet Muhammad tied his horse, Buraq, before his night journey to heaven.[14] There had been a few serious incidents resulting from these differences.[15]

As a result of an incident, which occurred in September 1925, a ruling was given which forbade the bringing by Jews of seats and benches to the Wall even though these were intended for the support of worshippers who were aged and infirm.[15] The Muslims linked any adaptions to the site with the Zionist project, and feared that they would be the first step in turning the site into a synagogue and taking it over.[14]

Several months earlier Zionist leader Menachem Ussishkin gave a speech demanding “a Jewish state without compromises and without concessions, from Dan to Be’er Sheva, from the great sea to the desert, including Transjordan.” He concluded, “Let us swear that the Jewish people will not rest and will not remain silent until its national home is built on our Mt Moriah”, a reference to the Temple Mount.[14]

In September 1928, Jews at their Yom Kippur prayers at the Western Wall placed chairs and customary screens, a few wooden frames covered with cloth, between the men and women present. Jerusalem commissioner Edward Keith-Roach, while visiting the Muslim religious court overlooking the prayer area, pointed out the screen, mentioning that he had never seen it at the wall before. This precipitated emotional protests and demands from the assembled sheiks that it be removed. Unless it was taken down, they said, they would not be responsible for what happened. The screen was described as violating the Ottoman status quo that forbade Jews from making any construction in the Western Wall area and played into Muslim fears of Zionist expropriation of the site, though such screens had been put up from time to time. Keith-Roach told the beadle that the screen had to be removed because of the Arabs' demands. The beadle requested that the screen remained standing until the end of the prayer service, to which Keith-Roach agreed. When the Jewish beadle failed to remove the screen as agreed, ten armed men were sent in, urged on by Arab residents who were shouting, "Death to the Jewish dogs!" and "Strike, strike". A violent clash took place with worshipers and it was destroyed.[14]

The intervention drew censure later from senior officials who judged that excessive force had been exercised without good judgement, although the British government issued a statement defending the action.[14]

The internal politics of both sides had been willing to adopt extreme positions and to make use of religious symbols to whip up popular support.[14]

Zionist literature published throughout the world used the imagery of a domed structure on the Temple Mount to symbolize their national aspirations. Zionists had appropriated an Islamic minaret from the Ottoman period on the old city wall as a symbol for their propaganda. A Zionist flag was depicted atop of a building very reminiscent of the Dome of the Rock in one publication, which was later picked up and redistributed by Arab propagandists.[14]

Haj Amin al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem distributed leaflets to Arabs in Palestine and throughout the Arab world which claimed that the Jews were planning to take over the al-Aqsa Mosque.[14] The leaflet stated that the Government was "responsible for any consequences of any measures which the Moslems may adopt for the purpose of defending the holy Burak themselves in the event of the failure of the Government…to prevent any such intrusion on the part of the Jews." A memorandum issued by the Moslem Supreme Council stated, "Having realized by bitter experience the unlimited greedy aspirations of the Jews in this respect, Moslems believe that the Jews’ aim is to take possession of the Mosque of Al-Aqsa gradually on the pretence that it is the Temple", and it advised the Jews "to stop this hostile propaganda which will naturally engender a parallel action in the whole Moslem world, the responsibility for which will rest with the Jews".[16]

The Shaw Commission stated that some sections of the Arabic Press had reproduced documents concerning the Wailing Wall which "were of a character likely to excite any susceptible readers." In addition, it stated that "there appeared in the Arabic Press a number of articles, which, had they been published in England or in other western countries, would unquestionably have been regarded as provocative."[17] One consequence was that Jewish worshippers frequently were subjected to beatings and stoning.[14]

In October 1928, the Grand Mufti organised new construction next to and above the Wall. Mules were driven through the praying area often dropping excrement, and waste water was thrown on Jews. A muezzin was appointed to perform the Islamic call to prayer directly next to the Wall, creating noise exactly when the Jews were conducting their prayers. The Jews protested at these provocations and tensions increased.[18][19][20][21]

Right wing Zionists began making demands for control over the wall; some went as far as to call openly for the rebuilding of the Temple, increasing Muslim fears over Zionist intentions.[22] Ben-Gurion said the wall should be “redeemed”, predicting it could be achieved in as little as “another half a year”.[14] During the spring of 1929 the Revisionist newspaper, Doar HaYom ran a long campaign claiming Jewish rights over the wall and its pavement. On 6 August the British Palestine Police Force established a police post beside the wall. On 14 August the Haganah and Brit Trumpeldor held a meeting in Tel Aviv attended by 6,000 people objecting to 1928 Commission's conclusion that the Wall was Muslim property.[23]
To be clear: it's not like the Arab leaders were acting totally responsibly either; recent history reflects the historical pattern that Muslim religious leaders are very excitable and prone to overreact.

But the Zionists were FAR from innocent in this case; their behavior towards the western wall more often than mot manifested as a blatant "fuck you" to the Arab majority of Jerusalem, which was at least partially intentional. And this, more than anything else, was the thing that set the immigrants apart from the Jews who had traditionally lived there: the Zionists, pumped full of right-wing nationalist fervor, had inserted themselves right smack into the middle of an equally right-wing Muslim city with a status quo dating back hundreds of years.

When you consider that the entire Second Intafada was essentially triggered by Ariel Sharon's visitation of the Al Aqsa Mosque, it's clear that this is no small provocation.
 
You're missing the important part
The important part was the law that was actually quoted in the article, not some blogger's interpretation of it. The LAW doesn't say what he -- or YOU -- wants it to say, which is probably why you think it's unimportant.

law said:
Resettlement of Palestinian refugees may not be a substitute for the right of return.

Anyone who violates the provisions of this Act shall be guilty of the crime of high treason against him and subject to all criminal and civil penalties prescribed for this crime.

Anything that is contrary to the provisions of this law is canceled, null and void and any legislation or agreement that detracts from the right of return violates the provisions of this law.

What part of that do you not understand?

To compromise on the right of return is high treason. The law doesn't specifically say the penalty is death, presumably the poster of the article I referred to knows what the penalty for treason is under Palestinian law and did 2+2.
 
What part of that do you not understand?
I don't understand why you think half-truths are better than lies.

The law of the right of return for Palestinian refugees No. (1) for the year 2008

The right of return for Palestinian refugees to their homes and property and compensation for their suffering is a sacred and inalienable right that cannot compromised or exchanged; it is beyond the scope of jurisprudence or interpretation or referendum.

The right of return is the natural individual and collective civil and political right that moves from parents to children and does not disappear over time, by the signing of any agreement, and it may not be disposed of or waived in any way.

The Zionist occupation bears full responsibility for the political, legal and humanitarian and moral suffering of the Palestinian people and the non-recognition of the right to self-determination. Britain bears historical responsibility for the suffering of the Palestinian people. The international community bears full responsibility to lift and remove the suffering of the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians have the right to sue the Zionist occupation for their suffering caused to the Palestinian people and their demands for compensation for damage to their emotional or material damage.

Resettlement of Palestinian refugees may not be a substitute for the right of return.

Anyone who violates the provisions of this Act shall be guilty of the crime of high treason against him and subject to all criminal and civil penalties prescribed for this crime.

Anything that is contrary to the provisions of this law is canceled, null and void and any legislation or agreement that detracts from the right of return violates the provisions of this law.
Which has been consistent with Abba's position from the very beginning:
My words about Safed were a personal position, and they do not indicate a relinquishment of the right of return, since it is not possible for anyone to give up the right of return, because the wording of all the international and the Arab and Islamic resolutions states that a just and agreed solution must be found to the refugee problem based on [UN Resolution] 194, with the word “agreed” meaning in agreement with the Israeli side.
And what doe Resolution 194 state?
Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;
That is Mahmoud Abbas -- Islamic Jihad, not Hamas, not Evil Santa Claus -- spelling out the position of the Palestinian government. The same government that passed the law you're talking about (Abbas is the one who SIGNED IT INTO LAW in the first place!). The reason it's not an "and/or" proposition (repatriation OR compensation) is that Palestinians who repatriate may still be entitled to compensation, as do Palestinians who receive compensation are still entitled to request repatriation. Palestinians have the right to do BOTH, whether they choose to exercise that right or not. And it's not even a question of whether or not they SHOULD have that right, they plainly do.

So to recap:
Mahmoud Abbas, the elected President of Palestine, says that the Palestinians will accept both financial compensation and repatriation for Palestinian refugees in exercise of their right of return.
Loren Pechtel, an internet persona with a solid record of unflinching and deeply irrational pro-Israeli bias, says that the Palestinians will not accept financial compensation and will ONLY accept repatriation and that not repatriating is treason.

Which one of those two people probably has an accurate understanding of the Palestinians' position?
 
Yes, the issues were whether some people should be allowed to return anyway, provided that their numbers didn't destabilise the demographics, whether the funds should be under Palestinian or Israeli control, and to what extent Palestinians who were no longer resident in Palestine should benefit. Arafat baulked at giving up a physical return for a cash settlement the disbursement of which would be controlled by his enemies.

Since then there have been several peace initiatives that spell out a cash settlement in some detail, including the Hamas proposals after they got elected, two sets of Egyptian proposals, and Abbas' televised of the scheme. Physical return in all these schemes is limited to very small numbers, precisely to avoid the demographics issue. It's a solved problem.

So this is the first I've heard that the funds would have been under Israeli control, and since I don't recall hearing of such a contingency when the summit was underway, I spent a couple of hours researching the matter. I haven't been able to find any contemporary reports that make such as statement, and even Abbas' recounting of why the accords failed does not mention such a contingency.

The chronologically closest report I've been able to get my hands on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/26/w...t-s-allies-say-he-stands-taller-home-for.html

Do you have a credible source which can support this claim? Everything I've found, whether written by putatively neutral, pro-Israeli, or pro-Palestinian authors seems to indicate that the right of return full-stop was a sticking point and then goes on to justify one or the other side's justification for their stance on physical right of return.

That may be because you're using a US-based search engine. If you want a source in addition to what was just posted, let me know what you find credible, and I'll see what I can do.
 
So this is the first I've heard that the funds would have been under Israeli control, and since I don't recall hearing of such a contingency when the summit was underway, I spent a couple of hours researching the matter. I haven't been able to find any contemporary reports that make such as statement, and even Abbas' recounting of why the accords failed does not mention such a contingency.

The chronologically closest report I've been able to get my hands on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/26/w...t-s-allies-say-he-stands-taller-home-for.html

Do you have a credible source which can support this claim? Everything I've found, whether written by putatively neutral, pro-Israeli, or pro-Palestinian authors seems to indicate that the right of return full-stop was a sticking point and then goes on to justify one or the other side's justification for their stance on physical right of return.

That may be because you're using a US-based search engine. If you want a source in addition to what was just posted, let me know what you find credible, and I'll see what I can do.

What was posted didn't actually address my question so if you have a source that says differently then I would appreciate it. The previously posted quote confirms my understanding which is that the compensatory fund would be an international fund of about $30 billion to which Israel would contribute. The offer was that physical right of return would be limited to 100,000 individuals as well as setting up the fund but not that Israel would control the disbursement of the fund.

This offer was on Arafat to accept, counteroffer, or reject - and he rejected it. I'm sure his rationale was similar to what was posted earlier, specifically that the physical right of return was non-negotiable with UN194 as the basis for his reasoning.

That is to say the form in which the right of return would be addressed.

How does that contradict what I said?
 
This offer was on Arafat to accept, counteroffer, or reject - and he rejected it. I'm sure his rationale was similar to what was posted earlier, specifically that the physical right of return was non-negotiable with UN194 as the basis for his reasoning.

Based on what? I didn't think that the collapse of the talks had anything to do with the Right to Return - but rather the borders of the proposed state and the limitations that would be placed on it.

How does that contradict what I said?

Well, you said that the physical right of return was a sticking point, and I've not seen a source that would suggest that.

We may be talking past each other though.
 
Based on what? I didn't think that the collapse of the talks had anything to do with the Right to Return - but rather the borders of the proposed state and the limitations that would be placed on it.

How does that contradict what I said?

Well, you said that the physical right of return was a sticking point, and I've not seen a source that would suggest that.

We may be talking past each other though.

It's possible.

Regarding the right of return, we have Arafat's concerns going into Taba (http://www.economist.com/node/464892) as well as his raising the point during Taba of restitution of property in Israel and the Israeli delegation rejecting that as a possibility.

That understanding seems concordant with the above law, and statements by Abbas regarding right of return, as well as Arafat's own statements in 2004 as well as Ahmed Qurei's statements at the time.

If statements such as 'the signing of any agreement, and it may not be disposed of or waived in any way' shouldn't be read as referencing a physical right of return specifically, then how should we interpret that statement to match up with a potential compensatory agreement in lieu of a physical right of return? Wouldn't that be a waiving of the right of return in exchange for compensation?

Borders, too, were an issue at Camp David but the Palestinian side went into Taba with their own maps. So while agreement wasn't there at the time, the matter seemed like one which could reach an agreement at a future date through negotiations.

Even our self-admittedly mentally unstable friend above states as much - that Abbas' statement retains both a physical right, as well as monetary a monetary equivalent. Israel says no more than 100k, and Palestine says everyone who wants it. Even if agreement on borders were to be reached, it seems to me this would be a sticking point, and so far neither side has shown a willingness to negotiate on the matter.
 
I don't understand why you think half-truths are better than lies.

What half truth?

I said that for Abbas to go back on the right of return is treason. You wouldn't believe it, I showed you the words and you're trying to evade.

Most of that is fluff, the important part is the treason bit.

Mahmoud Abbas, the elected President of Palestine, says that the Palestinians will accept both financial compensation and repatriation for Palestinian refugees in exercise of their right of return.
Loren Pechtel, an internet persona with a solid record of unflinching and deeply irrational pro-Israeli bias, says that the Palestinians will not accept financial compensation and will ONLY accept repatriation and that not repatriating is treason.

Which one of those two people probably has an accurate understanding of the Palestinians' position?

Except that's not what he's saying. He's saying the people can choose to accept compensation in lieu of actual return. That's not the same as saying he will accept it in peace talks.
 
That's debatable. The suspects are Hamas members, and Hamas is known to have kidnapped Israelis before. Of course Hamas leadership will deny all knowledge afterwards...
Hamas has done a lot of very despicable things over the years. They have suicide bombed buses and checkpoints, they have kidnapped soldiers, murdered women and children, hidden rockets in civilian areas, manufactured narcotics for criminals, denied the holocaust, rigged elections, fired rockets randomly at civilian areas... and that's just in the last decade.

One thing Hamas has NEVER done was lie about its involvement in terrorist attacks. When the attacks succeed, they take credit for it; when the attacks fail, they praise the attackers and call them martyrs. When they're not involved with the attacks, they STILL praise the attackers and applaud their martyrdom or whatever. But go back through Hamas' history -- really, the ethos of the entire organization -- and the one thing you will never see them do is DENY RESPONSIBILITY for something they did. If anything, they'd CLAIM responsibility hoping it will make them look more badass than they really are, but they haven't done that since at least the second intafada.

On the contrary, Hamas issued a statement from the beginning that Israel's accusation was "stupid" and that they had no reason at all to do something like that. And realistically, that's true; they had entered the unity government barely a week earlier, and an abduction of teenagers in the middle of a sensitive transition would be the stupidest move ever from a strategic standpoint.

Say what you want about Hamas: they're bloodthirsty, they're uncompromising, they're even a little bit crazy, but they are NOT stupid.
Had to dig up this old post, because apparently Hamas is that stupid.

Hamas admits to kidnapping three Israeli teens

Told you so.
 
Regarding the right of return, we have Arafat's concerns going into Taba (http://www.economist.com/node/464892) as well as his raising the point during Taba of restitution of property in Israel and the Israeli delegation rejecting that as a possibility.

That understanding seems concordant with the above law, and statements by Abbas regarding right of return, as well as Arafat's own statements in 2004 as well as Ahmed Qurei's statements at the time.

If statements such as 'the signing of any agreement, and it may not be disposed of or waived in any way' shouldn't be read as referencing a physical right of return specifically, then how should we interpret that statement to match up with a potential compensatory agreement in lieu of a physical right of return? Wouldn't that be a waiving of the right of return in exchange for compensation?

Well, in the article you quote above, it's pretty explicit:

economist article said:
If Israel were to accept that principle (Right to Return), say refugee leaders, their negotiators could be “flexible” on where, how, over what period and in what numbers the right of return would be exercised. “There is a world of difference between an agreement where Israel refuses to recognise the right of return, and an agreement where Israel recognises the right but insists on a mechanism to implement it,” said another Palestinian leader.

If you're happy with the Economist as a source, we also have the 2006 Hamas proposals, which explicitly refer to cash compensation in place of physical return for the majority of returnees, and specifies how that would be funded. Similar proposals have since been made by the Arab League, and the Eygptian government. All of these were extensively covered in the Economist.

Deepak said:
Even if agreement on borders were to be reached, it seems to me this would be a sticking point, and so far neither side has shown a willingness to negotiate on the matter.

Israel, Fatah and Hamas have all shown at least some willingness to negotiate on this. I think it's issues like the final status of Jerusalem that are more intractable.

Had to dig up this old post, because apparently Hamas is that stupid.

Hamas admits to kidnapping three Israeli teens

Told you so.

Except this isn't Hamas announcing responsibility, despite the headline that implies otherwise, but rather a senior religious guy praising the militant wing (of which he isn't a member) for carrying out the attacks. Granted he believed Hamas carried out the attacks, but he wasn't speaking on behalf of Hamas, and he wasn't right about who actually carried them out.
 
Except this isn't Hamas announcing responsibility, despite the headline that implies otherwise, but rather a senior religious guy praising the militant wing (of which he isn't a member) for carrying out the attacks. Granted he believed Hamas carried out the attacks, but he wasn't speaking on behalf of Hamas, and he wasn't right about who actually carried them out.
Except that this isn't some random religious nutcase, but senior official who may even have had a hand in the kidnapping.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/hamass-salach-al-aruri-behind-kidnapping/2014/06/20/

An Israeli security official claims that Salach Al-Aruri, a founder and senior Hamas official, was one of those who helped prepare and organize the infrastructure for the kidnapping of Eyal Yifrach, 19, Naftali Frankel, 16, and Gil-ad Shaar, 16, according to a report on Walla.

Al-Aruri, who has a home in Aaroura, a village north of Ramallah, now lives in Turkey and serves there as Hamas’s representative.

Over the past 2 years, Al-Aruri sent dozens of agents into Judea and Samaria via Jordan with money earmarked specifically for training to kidnap Israelis.

Many of his agents were caught as they tried to get into Israel from Jordan, but not all of them were intercepted, and were only recognized as Al-Arurui’s agents after they had already left the country.

The money that did make it in went for establishing and training of terror cells in Judea and Samaria.

Al-Aruri’s constant messages, in writing, to the terror cells he funded has explicitly been to kidnap Israelis.

The security official said there is no “smoking gun” linking Al-Aruri directly to the kidnapping of Eyal Yifrach, Naftali Frankel, and Gil-ad Shaar, but this is what he has been endless urging and directing the terror cells he funded to do, over the past few years.

Al-Aruri also used charities to transfer money.

The security official said that Salach Al-Aruri receives his instructions directly from Hamas chief Khaled Mashal.
So he is a founder and senior member of Hamas, and allegedly he doesn't know what Hamas is doing? And note the date on the article. This was published before he admitted to anything, so he was a top suspect for IDF to begin with.
 
If statements such as 'the signing of any agreement, and it may not be disposed of or waived in any way' shouldn't be read as referencing a physical right of return specifically, then how should we interpret that statement to match up with a potential compensatory agreement in lieu of a physical right of return? Wouldn't that be a waiving of the right of return in exchange for compensation?
No, for the simple reason that you cannot pass a law or a treaty that requires someone to waive their rights. This is why the Palestinian proposals for the right of return agreements always include in the language that accepting compensation OR resettlement OR repatriation at any point will not prejudice their free exercise of the right of return at a future date.

That seems like a minor detail, but in the context of human rights it's actually pretty major. It would be like saying that criminal suspects have the right to due process but convicted criminals no longer do. That seems perfectly logical until you remember the APPEALS court also affords due process, and a criminal who has been released from prison will still need due process to be in place if he is ever accused of another crime in the future.

For the Palestinians, the issue is whether or not the compensation agreement constitutes the actual right of return or degenerates into "hush money" to make the issue go away quietly. In the latter case, Palestinians who accept compensation for lost property may choose -- perhaps years later -- to move into Israel to join their cousins or relatives in more prosperous times. A Palestinian family that repatriates into the slums of South Jaffa might stumble on some family records and realize they are also entitled to financial compensation. In the more extreme example, a Palestinian family in Gaza that has no intention of ever moving to Israel and doesn't care about any property they lost (because they're crazy Hamassholes and plan on leading an armed invasion some day) might never request or receive compensation or repatriation... until Sahib's youngest son falls in love with an Israeli girl and decides to get reimbursed for his family's once-demolished him in Hebron so they can move in together and live happily ever after.

In truth, it's not even about hypothetical scenarios. It's about the fact that the right of return is an inalienable right and you cannot ask people to waive their rights just because they exercised them once.
 
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