What should Israel do?

[untermensche]

That is the education you are speaking about. While Israeli's are mastering technology and inventing things like Instant messaging and making major technical advances that benefit humanity, the Palestinians are doing what exactly, except promising to kill as many Jews as possible.

The idea that Israel wants no danger for herself when it is constant danger is just a statement devoid of fact or intellectual honesty

If the US had been giving the Palestinians tens of billions of dollars in technical aide for the past few decades they would be doing exactly what the Israelis are doing.

The US bought a decent place for the Jews to live. Other countries contributed too. The Israelis didn't make it happen because they are some superior beings.

It also allowed Israel to turn the places Palestinians live into cesspools. And allowed decades of torture, rape, murder, theft and displacement by the Israelis.

 

[Deepak]

That is the education you are speaking about. While Israeli's are mastering technology and inventing things like Instant messaging and making major technical advances that benefit humanity, the Palestinians are doing what exactly, except promising to kill as many Jews as possible.

The idea that Israel wants no danger for herself when it is constant danger is just a statement devoid of fact or intellectual honesty

If the US had been giving the Palestinians tens of billions of dollars in technical aide for the past few decades they would be doing exactly what the Israelis are doing.

This is just silly - tens of billions of $$s worth of aid have been distributed to Palestine. A cursory reading of Oslo, World Bank documents, or UNRWA documents would show this to be the case, and the US specifically is one of the largest contributors of aid.

There's no doubt that large amounts of this money have flowed into the war machine rather than in developing Palestine, though that's not to say all of it.

A shortage of aid is not what accounts for the difference in state between the two parties - but one of motivations.

 

[untermensche]

If the US had been giving the Palestinians tens of billions of dollars in technical aide for the past few decades they would be doing exactly what the Israelis are doing.

This is just silly - tens of billions of $$s worth of aid have been distributed to Palestine. A cursory reading of Oslo, World Bank documents, or UNRWA documents would show this to be the case, and the US specifically is one of the largest contributors of aid.

There's no doubt that large amounts of this money have flowed into the war machine rather than in developing Palestine, though that's not to say all of it.

A shortage of aid is not what accounts for the difference in state between the two parties - but one of motivations.

Nonsense.

The Palestinians have received a tiny fraction of what Israel has received.

Another difference is freedom. Israel has freedom and the Palestinians are highly restricted by the Israelis.

 

[Deepak]

This is just silly - tens of billions of $$s worth of aid have been distributed to Palestine. A cursory reading of Oslo, World Bank documents, or UNRWA documents would show this to be the case, and the US specifically is one of the largest contributors of aid.

There's no doubt that large amounts of this money have flowed into the war machine rather than in developing Palestine, though that's not to say all of it.

A shortage of aid is not what accounts for the difference in state between the two parties - but one of motivations.

Nonsense.

The Palestinians have received a tiny fraction of what Israel has received.

Another difference is freedom. Israel has freedom and the Palestinians are highly restricted by the Israelis.

Maybe if you consider defense aid, which itself is not fungible and essentially flows back into the US defense industry. Keep in mind that Egypt and Jordan receive similar deals, and ultimately neither of these three countries developed functioning economies as a result of or predicated upon military aid. Thus the amount given to one party in comparison to another is irrelevant.

The point is that, from worldwide sources, billions are provided to Palestine and large sums of both the money and material provided is squandered on an ineffective* war machine rather than being reinvested into building a functioning economy. In real terms - there's no shortage of aid flowing into Palestine, and there's no question that the aid money flowing in could be better spent on things that would have tangible benefits for the Palestinian people and economy. Rockets and tunnels do nothing to improve the everyman's lot in life.

*There seems to be little argument from either side that these attacks have been effective militarily. I would argue that what's being fought is a PR war rather than a conventional war - the moral illusion Harris alludes to.

 

[Deepak]

Maybe if you consider defense aid, which itself is not fungible and essentially flows back into the US defense industry. Keep in mind that Egypt and Jordan receive similar deals, and ultimately neither of these three countries developed functioning economies as a result of or predicated upon military aid. Thus the amount given to one party in comparison to another is irrelevant.

And a corollary to this point specifically, this exchange has hardly been one sided. Israel has actually contributed quite a bit of technical knowledge, in the form of IED detection and neutralization, RPG countermeasures, countering cyber threats, etc. To think that Israel would be a nation of dirt farmers without US aid misses the point significantly.

 

[untermensche]

Nonsense.

The Palestinians have received a tiny fraction of what Israel has received.

Another difference is freedom. Israel has freedom and the Palestinians are highly restricted by the Israelis.

Maybe if you consider defense aid, which itself is not fungible and essentially flows back into the US defense industry. Keep in mind that Egypt and Jordan receive similar deals, and ultimately neither of these three countries developed functioning economies as a result of or predicated upon military aid. Thus the amount given to one party in comparison to another is irrelevant.

The point is that, from worldwide sources, billions are provided to Palestine and large sums of both the money and material provided is squandered on an ineffective* war machine rather than being reinvested into building a functioning economy. In real terms - there's no shortage of aid flowing into Palestine, and there's no question that the aid money flowing in could be better spent on things that would have tangible benefits for the Palestinian people and economy. Rockets and tunnels do nothing to improve the everyman's lot in life.

*There seems to be little argument from either side that these attacks have been effective militarily. I would argue that what's being fought is a PR war rather than a conventional war - the moral illusion Harris alludes to.

The rockets and tunnels cost next to nothing compared to what Israel is getting.

Not only are the Palestinians being starved of capital they are being starved of technology and information.

Gaza and the West Bank are not free states allowed to engage with the world freely.

Saying the Israeli's have a more advanced society is like bragging that the whites in Virginia had a more advanced society to the blacks in 1830.

 

[Deepak]

Maybe if you consider defense aid, which itself is not fungible and essentially flows back into the US defense industry. Keep in mind that Egypt and Jordan receive similar deals, and ultimately neither of these three countries developed functioning economies as a result of or predicated upon military aid. Thus the amount given to one party in comparison to another is irrelevant.

The point is that, from worldwide sources, billions are provided to Palestine and large sums of both the money and material provided is squandered on an ineffective* war machine rather than being reinvested into building a functioning economy. In real terms - there's no shortage of aid flowing into Palestine, and there's no question that the aid money flowing in could be better spent on things that would have tangible benefits for the Palestinian people and economy. Rockets and tunnels do nothing to improve the everyman's lot in life.

*There seems to be little argument from either side that these attacks have been effective militarily. I would argue that what's being fought is a PR war rather than a conventional war - the moral illusion Harris alludes to.

The rockets and tunnels cost next to nothing compared to what Israel is getting.

Not only are the Palestinians being starved of capital they are being starved of technology and information.

Gaza and the West Bank are not free states allowed to engage with the world freely.

Saying the Israeli's have a more advanced society is like bragging that the whites in Virginia had a more advanced society to the blacks in 1830.

You seem to be fixated on comparisons of aid packages and this strawman of whether Palestinians are a sufficiently 'advanced society'.

The problem is that aid money is being squandered by Palestinian leadership that treats its citizens like chessmen. A modicum of research would show that there are many educational support programs in existence for Palestinians, from education provided to young children, to university scholarship programs for Palestinian adults (I'm personally aware of India and Australia running such programs, and I'm sure a bit of research would reveal dozens of others). What information are they being starved of?

Exactly how do rockets and tunnels contribute to the creation of a functioning society?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fP6mlNSK8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Underseer]

The rockets and tunnels cost next to nothing compared to what Israel is getting.

Not only are the Palestinians being starved of capital they are being starved of technology and information.

Gaza and the West Bank are not free states allowed to engage with the world freely.

Saying the Israeli's have a more advanced society is like bragging that the whites in Virginia had a more advanced society to the blacks in 1830.

You seem to be fixated on comparisons of aid packages and this strawman of whether Palestinians are a sufficiently 'advanced society'.

The problem is that aid money is being squandered by Palestinian leadership that treats its citizens like chessmen. A modicum of research would show that there are many educational support programs in existence for Palestinians, from education provided to young children, to university scholarship programs for Palestinian adults (I'm personally aware of India and Australia running such programs, and I'm sure a bit of research would reveal dozens of others). What information are they being starved of?

Exactly how do rockets and tunnels contribute to the creation of a functioning society?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fP6mlNSK8[/YOUTUBE]

So if the Israelis are justified in slaughtering Palestinian civilians because of rockets and tunnels, aren't the Palestinians justified in slaughtering Israeli civilians because the Israelis have killed a much larger number of Palestinian civilians?

 

[Deepak]

So if the Israelis are justified in slaughtering Palestinian civilians because of rockets and tunnels, aren't the Palestinians justified in slaughtering Israeli civilians because the Israelis have killed a much larger number of Palestinian civilians?

Call it whatever you like, but I'm a bit circumspect that all out warfare is the best course of action for the Palestinian people. Too, in building bomb shelters and Iron Dome Israel has shown an unwillingness to win the 'more dead' argument.

Tell me though, since we're on the point of slaughter, how often have Hamas called in evacuation orders before firing mortars, or rockets, or (when the borders were open) warnings about suicide bombers? Again I agree with Harris, in that Israeli actions aren't particularly palatable, but any equivalence being drawn between the two hardly seems correct. Hamas seems to be taking actions that maximize the civilian casualties on both sides.

[Youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaqWqjb4w6s[/Youtube]

If we're going to have philosophical discussions about Platonic justification then I don't really think we're really going to get anywhere. The more productive thing IMO, both here and in the broader discussion, is to identify the issues and potential solutions.

 

[untermensche]

The rockets and tunnels cost next to nothing compared to what Israel is getting.

Not only are the Palestinians being starved of capital they are being starved of technology and information.

Gaza and the West Bank are not free states allowed to engage with the world freely.

Saying the Israeli's have a more advanced society is like bragging that the whites in Virginia had a more advanced society to the blacks in 1830.

You seem to be fixated on comparisons of aid packages and this strawman of whether Palestinians are a sufficiently 'advanced society'.

The problem is that aid money is being squandered by Palestinian leadership that treats its citizens like chessmen. A modicum of research would show that there are many educational support programs in existence for Palestinians, from education provided to young children, to university scholarship programs for Palestinian adults (I'm personally aware of India and Australia running such programs, and I'm sure a bit of research would reveal dozens of others). What information are they being starved of?

Exactly how do rockets and tunnels contribute to the creation of a functioning society?

The issue is why the Palestinians need aid.

They need it because they are being crushed by a much stronger power.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That is the education you are speaking about. While Israeli's are mastering technology and inventing things like Instant messaging and making major technical advances that benefit humanity, the Palestinians are doing what exactly, except promising to kill as many Jews as possible.

The idea that Israel wants no danger for herself when it is constant danger is just a statement devoid of fact or intellectual honesty

If the US had been giving the Palestinians tens of billions of dollars in technical aide for the past few decades they would be doing exactly what the Israelis are doing.

The US bought a decent place for the Jews to live. Other countries contributed too. The Israelis didn't make it happen because they are some superior beings.

It also allowed Israel to turn the places Palestinians live into cesspools. And allowed decades of torture, rape, murder, theft and displacement by the Israelis.

US aid is a few % of the Israeli economy.

Aid is the *MAJORITY* of the Palestinian economy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The rockets and tunnels cost next to nothing compared to what Israel is getting.

Not only are the Palestinians being starved of capital they are being starved of technology and information.

Gaza and the West Bank are not free states allowed to engage with the world freely.

Saying the Israeli's have a more advanced society is like bragging that the whites in Virginia had a more advanced society to the blacks in 1830.

Yeah, they're being starved--by Hamas.

At least 90% of the evil you keep ranting about is actually due to Hamas, not Israel.

Not to mention 10%-20% of their rockets that fell into Gaza rather than Israel--including the hit on the Al-Shifa hospital. How many of the civilian casualties were due to them?

 

[Samhain]

So...surprisingly enough, no one has mentioned, in this thread or others that I've seen, the report that Israel is now planning to annex about one thousand acres of arable West Bank land. Israel will take the land and settle it, regardless of Palestinian protestations. So, really, how the can anyone not consider this a completely one-sided conflict? The PA simply has no power to stop Israel and the rocket launches and tunnels from Hamas won't do anything for it either. To get back to the original question of the thread of what Israel should do...this isn't it.

 

[Deepak]

To get back to the original question of the thread of what Israel should do...this isn't it.

No doubt - outside of the Israeli hardliners settlements are recognized as a significant impediment.

That being said, cooler heads in Israeli leadership have actually shown willing to remove settlers and dismantle settlements in the past. I'd think that a cessation of rocket attacks would go a long way to erode their power base, so indirectly they do actually have an effect.

 

[Samhain]

To get back to the original question of the thread of what Israel should do...this isn't it.

No doubt - outside of the Israeli hardliners settlements are recognized as a significant impediment.

That being said, cooler heads in Israeli leadership have actually shown willing to remove settlers and dismantle settlements in the past. I'd think that a cessation of rocket attacks would go a long way to erode their power base, so indirectly they do actually have an effect.

Yet the settlements continue and expand. Is it a wonder that rockets are launched into Israel when they haven't stopped stealing land from the people that attack them since the creation of Israel? The PA tried relatively peaceful negotiations for years and still land was stolen and settlements expanded. Hamas' rise to power is a direct result of the bad faith on the part of Israel in the preceeding years. The same goes for the first and second intifadas. The rocket attacks do not arise in a vacuum, they are the result of the continuous policy of Israel to strip the lands from beneath the feet of Palestinians and drive them into the sea. Any negotiations at this point start at an unacceptable point for many Palestinians and understandably so. It's like gas prices...at the beginning of the year gas might be $3.00 a gallon then during the summer it might peak at $3.80...later that winter it drops down to $3.30 and you're so happy about the fifty cent drop that you don't really think about the fact that gas rose 10% in one year alone. And so goes the tactics of Israel to steal the lands of Palestine and disenfranchise those living there, except that the Palestinians are wise to the game and so they resist.

 

[Deepak]

No doubt - outside of the Israeli hardliners settlements are recognized as a significant impediment.

That being said, cooler heads in Israeli leadership have actually shown willing to remove settlers and dismantle settlements in the past. I'd think that a cessation of rocket attacks would go a long way to erode their power base, so indirectly they do actually have an effect.

Yet the settlements continue and expand. Is it a wonder that rockets are launched into Israel when they haven't stopped stealing land from the people that attack them since the creation of Israel? The PA tried relatively peaceful negotiations for years and still land was stolen and settlements expanded. Hamas' rise to power is a direct result of the bad faith on the part of Israel in the preceeding years. The same goes for the first and second intifadas. The rocket attacks do not arise in a vacuum, they are the result of the continuous policy of Israel to strip the lands from beneath the feet of Palestinians and drive them into the sea. Any negotiations at this point start at an unacceptable point for many Palestinians and understandably so. It's like gas prices...at the beginning of the year gas might be $3.00 a gallon then during the summer it might peak at $3.80...later that winter it drops down to $3.30 and you're so happy about the fifty cent drop that you don't really think about the fact that gas rose 10% in one year alone. And so goes the tactics of Israel to steal the lands of Palestine and disenfranchise those living there, except that the Palestinians are wise to the game and so they resist.

And as recently as May they've also dismantled settlements.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-illegal-west-bank-settlement-destroy-houses

Do recall in 2005 many more were dismantled following Fatah's recognition of the Israeli state and their commitment to opposing hostility against Israeli civilians. The Fatah-Hamas conflict followed shortly after leading up to Hamas taking power in popular elections.

Had Fatah remained in power and violence subsided one wonders what popular opinion in Israel would be on the settlements.

 

[Arctish]

Yet the settlements continue and expand. Is it a wonder that rockets are launched into Israel when they haven't stopped stealing land from the people that attack them since the creation of Israel? The PA tried relatively peaceful negotiations for years and still land was stolen and settlements expanded. Hamas' rise to power is a direct result of the bad faith on the part of Israel in the preceeding years. The same goes for the first and second intifadas. The rocket attacks do not arise in a vacuum, they are the result of the continuous policy of Israel to strip the lands from beneath the feet of Palestinians and drive them into the sea. Any negotiations at this point start at an unacceptable point for many Palestinians and understandably so. It's like gas prices...at the beginning of the year gas might be $3.00 a gallon then during the summer it might peak at $3.80...later that winter it drops down to $3.30 and you're so happy about the fifty cent drop that you don't really think about the fact that gas rose 10% in one year alone. And so goes the tactics of Israel to steal the lands of Palestine and disenfranchise those living there, except that the Palestinians are wise to the game and so they resist.

And as recently as May they've also dismantled settlements.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-illegal-west-bank-settlement-destroy-houses

Do recall in 2005 many more were dismantled following Fatah's recognition of the Israeli state and their commitment to opposing hostility against Israeli civilians. The Fatah-Hamas conflict followed shortly after leading up to Hamas taking power in popular elections.

Had Fatah remained in power and violence subsided one wonders what popular opinion in Israel would be on the settlements.

There's an interesting quote in that linked article:

"I offered to remove half the house but the court was not interested. It is a crazy situation. The Israeli government needs to answer a question: does it want to support those building the country or to destroy it? Does it want to be a Zionist country or have negotiations with Palestinians [for a two-state solution]?"

I think Mr. Kaniel has hit the nail on the head. Does Israel want to be Zionist and continue it's expansion onto Palestinian land, or does it want to negotiate a two-state solution? It seems to me the answer is Israel clearly wants Zionism and the ethnic cleansing of non-jews from what it calls Judea and Samaria.

Obviously, the Palestinians don't want this.

What should Israel do? It should follow the Golden Rule, and treat others as it wants to be treated.

 

[Samhain]

Yet the settlements continue and expand. Is it a wonder that rockets are launched into Israel when they haven't stopped stealing land from the people that attack them since the creation of Israel? The PA tried relatively peaceful negotiations for years and still land was stolen and settlements expanded. Hamas' rise to power is a direct result of the bad faith on the part of Israel in the preceeding years. The same goes for the first and second intifadas. The rocket attacks do not arise in a vacuum, they are the result of the continuous policy of Israel to strip the lands from beneath the feet of Palestinians and drive them into the sea. Any negotiations at this point start at an unacceptable point for many Palestinians and understandably so. It's like gas prices...at the beginning of the year gas might be $3.00 a gallon then during the summer it might peak at $3.80...later that winter it drops down to $3.30 and you're so happy about the fifty cent drop that you don't really think about the fact that gas rose 10% in one year alone. And so goes the tactics of Israel to steal the lands of Palestine and disenfranchise those living there, except that the Palestinians are wise to the game and so they resist.

And as recently as May they've also dismantled settlements.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-illegal-west-bank-settlement-destroy-houses

Do recall in 2005 many more were dismantled following Fatah's recognition of the Israeli state and their commitment to opposing hostility against Israeli civilians. The Fatah-Hamas conflict followed shortly after leading up to Hamas taking power in popular elections.

Had Fatah remained in power and violence subsided one wonders what popular opinion in Israel would be on the settlements.

In May 10 homes demolished. In September 1,000 acres of arable land annexed. Ya, that about sums up Israel's concessions...

From what I have read, popular opinion in Israel doesn't generally count the Palestinian situation as worth noticing. Most Israeli's are isolated from attacks by Hamas (even more so with Iron Dome), and the West Bank and the PA is effectively powerless to do anything to change the situation. Israel still controls water rights in the West Bank and have split it into cantons which make it exceedingly difficult to move about. And the greater Israeli population does not care about the Palestinian conflict. In 2010 a poll was conducted and only 8% of Israeli Jews considered the conflict with Palestine to be the most important issue facing Israel. And we all know how the settlers feel about it.

 

[untermensche]

The rockets and tunnels cost next to nothing compared to what Israel is getting.

Not only are the Palestinians being starved of capital they are being starved of technology and information.

Gaza and the West Bank are not free states allowed to engage with the world freely.

Saying the Israeli's have a more advanced society is like bragging that the whites in Virginia had a more advanced society to the blacks in 1830.

Yeah, they're being starved--by Hamas.

At least 90% of the evil you keep ranting about is actually due to Hamas, not Israel.

Not to mention 10%-20% of their rockets that fell into Gaza rather than Israel--including the hit on the Al-Shifa hospital. How many of the civilian casualties were due to them?

Hamas is not conducting an illegal quarantine. Hamas has not forbidden trade via boat or the air. Hamas has not destroyed the infrastructure of Gaza over and over.

Israel is strangling the Palestinians. Not Hamas.

 

[Deepak]

And as recently as May they've also dismantled settlements.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-illegal-west-bank-settlement-destroy-houses

Do recall in 2005 many more were dismantled following Fatah's recognition of the Israeli state and their commitment to opposing hostility against Israeli civilians. The Fatah-Hamas conflict followed shortly after leading up to Hamas taking power in popular elections.

Had Fatah remained in power and violence subsided one wonders what popular opinion in Israel would be on the settlements.

There's an interesting quote in that linked article:

"I offered to remove half the house but the court was not interested. It is a crazy situation. The Israeli government needs to answer a question: does it want to support those building the country or to destroy it? Does it want to be a Zionist country or have negotiations with Palestinians [for a two-state solution]?"

I think Mr. Kaniel has hit the nail on the head. Does Israel want to be Zionist and continue it's expansion onto Palestinian land, or does it want to negotiate a two-state solution? It seems to me the answer is Israel clearly wants Zionism and the ethnic cleansing of non-jews from what it calls Judea and Samaria.

Obviously, the Palestinians don't want this.

What should Israel do? It should follow the Golden Rule, and treat others as it wants to be treated.

So the quote from an individual, a settler no less, is representative of the whole? The fact is that the majority of Israelis support a two state solution.

And as recently as May they've also dismantled settlements.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-illegal-west-bank-settlement-destroy-houses

Do recall in 2005 many more were dismantled following Fatah's recognition of the Israeli state and their commitment to opposing hostility against Israeli civilians. The Fatah-Hamas conflict followed shortly after leading up to Hamas taking power in popular elections.

Had Fatah remained in power and violence subsided one wonders what popular opinion in Israel would be on the settlements.

In May 10 homes demolished. In September 1,000 acres of arable land annexed. Ya, that about sums up Israel's concessions...

From what I have read, popular opinion in Israel doesn't generally count the Palestinian situation as worth noticing. Most Israeli's are isolated from attacks by Hamas (even more so with Iron Dome), and the West Bank and the PA is effectively powerless to do anything to change the situation. Israel still controls water rights in the West Bank and have split it into cantons which make it exceedingly difficult to move about. And the greater Israeli population does not care about the Palestinian conflict. In 2010 a poll was conducted and only 8% of Israeli Jews considered the conflict with Palestine to be the most important issue facing Israel. And we all know how the settlers feel about it.

The 10 homes equate to about 300 acres - and 2005 was just short of 1200 acres.

And while only 8 percent consider the P/I conflict the most important issue the majority also consider a two state solution to be the best option for moving forward.

By comparison only 8% of people in the US consider the federal budget/deficit to be the most important issue, with taxes at 1% but if you polled these people on their feelings about the issue I'd expect that you wouldn't exactly get a nonplussed reaction from them.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.aspx

Energy, social security, and guns barely even register - so I'm not exactly sure if this is the best metric for judging people's reactions on a specific issue.