What should Israel do?

[Togo]

""We are of the same race and blood, and cooperation will bring great prosperity to the land," wrote Emir Faisal to Felix Frankfurter in 1917. Faisal was known for his affinity to the Zionists who had begun streaming to the Holy Land; in 1919, he signed a cooperation agreement with Chaim Weizmann, to whom he wrote that he was "mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people." But Faisal's proclamations of kinship with the Jews were more than lip service to a commonly held belief, says Tsvi Misinai, who knows perhaps more about the origins of the modern Palestinians than anyone. "Faisal's paternal line was Hashemite," he says, "meaning he was directly descended from Muhammad. But the mother of his maternal grandfather, King On, was descended from a family of forced Jewish converts to Islam that immigrated to the east bank of the Jordan, later returning to one of the villages west of the Jordan.

Unlike today, when Faisal was growing up, his grandfather's mother's Jewish origin was known, and they made no great effort to hide it. And what was known to Faisal is known to many Palestinians today as well." This is a story of what may be one of the best-kept secrets in history - one that could, in time, heal the terrible rift that has torn the Land of Israel asunder. After years of research, Misinai says that he can declare with certainty that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews. "And what's more, about half of them know it," he says."
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Jewish, Muslim, and Christian Palestinians lived together, worked together, and married into each other's families for centuries before the sudden influx of European Zionists and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire inflamed religious and racial tensions in Palestine. So before you bet the farm on "Genocide if the Jews aren't in charge", perhaps you should take another look at the history books and genetic studies that document close family connections between Palestinians of all faiths prior to the turmoil that led to the creation of the State of Israel.

Please Google the Hamas and Hezobola charter.

Then check out the UK for comparison. Still maintaining a claim on all of France. The national Anthem is good for a giggle too, since apparently it's the duty of loyal Brits to extend our laws overseas and crush the Scots.

The Arabs would take the money then and still refuse to recognise the State Of Israel. We are dealing with terrorists here not Western culture.

You're welcome to believe that, if course. It's just worth remembering that your opinions are based solely on your beliefs about Arabs.

You do know that the Arab League offered to provide most of the money?

 

[arkirk]

Israel didn't exist before 1948? I know the bible is just a record of superstitious people and shit, but archaeologists have uncovered evidence for king David from millennia ago. Most certainly Israelis can lay claim to that piece of land before anyone else!

Even if you believe the crap in the Bible, the Bible has the children of Israel taking the land away from the people who were there before in bloody wars with much violence...in keeping with the wishes of their angry god. You have to believe in their terrible god or admit that they were violent and murderous even back then. Theirs was even in Biblical times a story of invasion and conquest.

 

[none]

Even if you believe the crap in the Bible, the Bible has the children of Israel taking the land away from the people who were there before in bloody wars with much violence...in keeping with the wishes of their angry god. You have to believe in their terrible god or admit that they were violent and murderous even back then. Theirs was even in Biblical times a story of invasion and conquest.

This is interesting to me as I remember reading of no initial ownership of land belonging to the Jews.
I find the Bible difficult to read, so let me ask where is the ownership of the holy land first documented in either the Bible or elsewhere?
and if you could where is the first mention of Jews land grabbing?

 

[HaRaAYaH]

Israel didn't exist before 1948? I know the bible is just a record of superstitious people and shit, but archaeologists have uncovered evidence for king David from millennia ago. Most certainly Israelis can lay claim to that piece of land before anyone else!

Even if you believe the crap in the Bible, the Bible has the children of Israel taking the land away from the people who were there before in bloody wars with much violence...in keeping with the wishes of their angry god. You have to believe in their terrible god or admit that they were violent and murderous even back then. Theirs was even in Biblical times a story of invasion and conquest.

So what. Big Fing deal. Almost all countries were created that way. Do you seriously suggest the US give the land back to the Cherokees? What about the Germans, should they give the land back to the people they got it from.

 

[laughing dog]

Even if you believe the crap in the Bible, the Bible has the children of Israel taking the land away from the people who were there before in bloody wars with much violence...in keeping with the wishes of their angry god. You have to believe in their terrible god or admit that they were violent and murderous even back then. Theirs was even in Biblical times a story of invasion and conquest.

So what. Big Fing deal. Almost all countries were created that way. Do you seriously suggest the US give the land back to the Cherokees? What about the Germans, should they give the land back to the people they got it from.

Does that mean you will have no problem when the inevitable occurs and someone takes Israel away from its citizens?

 

[angelo]

Even if you believe the crap in the Bible, the Bible has the children of Israel taking the land away from the people who were there before in bloody wars with much violence...in keeping with the wishes of their angry god. You have to believe in their terrible god or admit that they were violent and murderous even back then. Theirs was even in Biblical times a story of invasion and conquest.

This is interesting to me as I remember reading of no initial ownership of land belonging to the Jews.
I find the Bible difficult to read, so let me ask where is the ownership of the holy land first documented in either the Bible or elsewhere?
and if you could where is the first mention of Jews land grabbing?

The question of "palestinians" has still not been answered properly! Prior to 1948 there were no Palestinians, only Arabs. The moment a Jewish state was declared they came into existence.

 

[arkirk]

So what. Big Fing deal. Almost all countries were created that way. Do you seriously suggest the US give the land back to the Cherokees? What about the Germans, should they give the land back to the people they got it from.

Does that mean you will have no problem when the inevitable occurs and someone takes Israel away from its citizens?

It is a simple matter really. If you can only conceive of people acting in a violent and confiscatory manner, you become unfit to live in this crowded world where we need to learn how to share. Regarding arable and liveable lands in the middle east, this is at a premium. Israel has occupied almost all of the better lands and grabbed almost all of the reliable water supplies in all of Palestine. Additionally it shows not the slightest tendency to share any of these lands and waters with Arabs. The Israeli leadership has created for the Palestinians a situation not unlike that which the Armenians faced in Turkey early in the 20th century.

The U.N. has reported on the environmental insufficiency of Gaza and the west bank, declaring that without a lot of remedial activity, Gaza will become unlivable within a decade. It seems pretty much that way today. There simply is no room in Palestine for the Palestinians without either some relenting on the part of Israel on land and resource seizures or some sort of outside intervention. As it is, there is nothing the Arabs can do to make peace when they are being squeezed to death by an extremely oppressive occupation. It is up to the Israelis or the other nations of the region to solve this problem. Considering the extreme disorder the Iraq war has brought about in the Middle East, it is almost entirely a matter for the Israelis to deal with and they are still not convinced that humanitarian rule of law is the best thing.

What my earlier post was saying is that Biblical accounts of the area were of people living in the bronze age, mostly tribal and semi-nomadic....just like the children of Jehovah. I was really pointing out that their claim to own this land is no more valid that those of any other people who have lived in the area. It is morally repugnant to me to see people accept murder and repression as an accepted method of determining who lives and dies in any area. To me that is a BIG FUCKING DEAL.

There is a reason the U.N. has declared that seizures of lands for annexation and settlement by force of arms is illegal under international law. We live in a lawless world in that part of the world, but it really must end.

 

[crispy]

This is interesting to me as I remember reading of no initial ownership of land belonging to the Jews.
I find the Bible difficult to read, so let me ask where is the ownership of the holy land first documented in either the Bible or elsewhere?
and if you could where is the first mention of Jews land grabbing?

The question of "palestinians" has still not been answered properly! Prior to 1948 there were no Palestinians, only Arabs. The moment a Jewish state was declared they came into existence.

Does it really matter what name you give them?

 

[Arctish]

This is interesting to me as I remember reading of no initial ownership of land belonging to the Jews.
I find the Bible difficult to read, so let me ask where is the ownership of the holy land first documented in either the Bible or elsewhere?
and if you could where is the first mention of Jews land grabbing?

The question of "palestinians" has still not been answered properly! Prior to 1948 there were no Palestinians, only Arabs. The moment a Jewish state was declared they came into existence.

Before there was an Israel there was a British Mandate for Palestine, and before that there were a group of Ottoman provinces referred to collectively as Palestine. Before the Ottomans there were popes urging Christian knights to crusade in Palestine, and before that there was a Roman Empire that called the place Palaestina. The place has been called Palestine for a couple thousand years and the citizens both past and present are called Palestinians.

The idea that there were no Palestinians until recently is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of Zionists who want to erase the history of the Palestinian people, and scribe their myths in its place. There are cities in the West Bank that have been continuously inhabited for thousands of years . The residents of Hebron, Jenin, Jericho, and Nablus did not just suddenly appear when the European Jews arrived to build their state. They had been living there, in Palestine, for a long, long time.

 

[angelo]

Okay, they are Arabs then! There were roughly around 170.000 refugees in 1948 which could easily have been absorbed by Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and other Arab states. But they chose to stay in refugee camps with the blessing of the Arab states which then declared they woud push all the Jews into the sea. The rest is history.

 

[arkirk]

Okay, they are Arabs then! There were roughly around 170.000 refugees in 1948 which could easily have been absorbed by Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and other Arab states. But they chose to stay in refugee camps with the blessing of the Arab states which then declared they woud push all the Jews into the sea. The rest is history.

Wrong! There were several continuously occupied cities and villages in Palestine long before the Europeans started screwing with it. Read Arctish's post above. Learn something. The biblical tribes of Israel were in fact Palestinian tribes...who decided to worship a cruel god that sent them on a killing spree almost immediately.

 

[angelo]

Okay, they are Arabs then! There were roughly around 170.000 refugees in 1948 which could easily have been absorbed by Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and other Arab states. But they chose to stay in refugee camps with the blessing of the Arab states which then declared they woud push all the Jews into the sea. The rest is history.

Wrong! There were several continuously occupied cities and villages in Palestine long before the Europeans started screwing with it. Read Arctish's post above. Learn something. The biblical tribes of Israel were in fact Palestinian tribes...who decided to worship a cruel god that sent them on a killing spree almost immediately.

You have been hoodwinked if you truly believe the ancient Israelites were Palestinians and not Jews. If you go back far enough you'd find that all of mankind originated from the African savannah. Let me guess, they were the first Palestinians?

 

[Togo]

You have been hoodwinked if you truly believe the ancient Israelites were Palestinians and not Jews. If you go back far enough you'd find that all of mankind originated from the African savannah. Let me guess, they were the first Palestinians?

And again, your political views appear to be based on your beliefs about race, and racial groups.

Maybe there's a pattern here.

 

[angelo]

I'm not the one here claiming the Jews were really Palestinians in disguise. For the record it's not race but culture and beliefs that is different

 

[Arctish]

I'm not the one here claiming the Jews were really Palestinians in disguise. For the record it's not race but culture and beliefs that is different

Except that the Jews whose ancestors never left the area around Jerusalem were more like their Muslim and Christian neighbors than they are like the European Jews who immigrated there during the 20th century. Also language, food, the arts, and other expressions of culture vary significantly between Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, and the Jewish ethnic groups of India, China, and Ethiopia. There is no one Jewish culture that all of them share. There is only the Jewish faith and the Jewish genome, and even those show that the farther away a population was from Jerusalem, the less like the Jerusalem Jews they were.

Meanwhile, the descendants of Jews who converted to other faiths but remained in the area around Jerusalem show their lineage in both culture and genetic make-up. There's a reason why the Palestinians are in the middle of the Jewish gene pool.

 

[Arctish]

Okay, they are Arabs then! There were roughly around 170.000 refugees in 1948 which could easily have been absorbed by Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and other Arab states. But they chose to stay in refugee camps with the blessing of the Arab states which then declared they woud push all the Jews into the sea. The rest is history.

It doesn't matter what you call them. You can call them Arabs, or Canaanites, or Hebronites, Jerichoites, Jeninites, and Nablusites if you like. It won't change the fact that the region known as Palestine has had a resident population for the last 6-10 thousand years, they've been called Palestinians since the days of the Roman Empire, and only some of those folks were of the Jewish faith.

Casually declaring the resident population "Arabs" and saying they should all go live in an Arab country is extremely racist thinking. They are the indigenous population, and if anyone has a right to live in Palestine it would be them.

 

[untermensche]

Here's a look at the Israeli Palestinian problem from the respected journalist John Pilger.

"There is a taboo," said the visionary Edward Said, "on telling the truth about Palestine and the great destructive force behind Israel. Only when this truth is out can any of us be free."

The most incessant propaganda says Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel. Khaled Hroub, the Cambridge University scholar considered a world leading authority on Hamas, says this phrase is "never used or adopted by Hamas, even in its most radical statements." The oft-quoted "anti-Jewish" 1988 Charter was the work of "one individual and made public without appropriate Hamas consensus . . . The author was one of the 'old guard' "; the document is regarded as an embarrassment and never cited.

For years, reporters have watched Israeli soldiers bait Palestinian children by abusing them through loud-speakers. Then they shoot them dead. For years, reporters have known about Palestinian women about to give birth and refused passage through a roadblock to a hospital; and the baby has died, and sometimes the mother.

For years, reporters have known about Palestinian doctors and ambulance crews given permission by Israeli commanders to attend the wounded or remove the dead, only to be shot through the head.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/26130-breaking-the-last-taboo-gaza-and-the-threat-of-world-war

 

[angelo]

Okay, they are Arabs then! There were roughly around 170.000 refugees in 1948 which could easily have been absorbed by Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and other Arab states. But they chose to stay in refugee camps with the blessing of the Arab states which then declared they woud push all the Jews into the sea. The rest is history.

It doesn't matter what you call them. You can call them Arabs, or Canaanites, or Hebronites, Jerichoites, Jeninites, and Nablusites if you like. It won't change the fact that the region known as Palestine has had a resident population for the last 6-10 thousand years, they've been called Palestinians since the days of the Roman Empire, and only some of those folks were of the Jewish faith.

Casually declaring the resident population "Arabs" and saying they should all go live in an Arab country is extremely racist thinking. They are the indigenous population, and if anyone has a right to live in Palestine it would be them.

That particular territory has been invaded and used by whoever was in ascendency for thousands of Years. Out of most of the population there the Jewish people were the least likely to interbreed with the conquerors, weather they were Canaanite, Jebusites, Greek, Romans, etc.

 

[Arctish]

It doesn't matter what you call them. You can call them Arabs, or Canaanites, or Hebronites, Jerichoites, Jeninites, and Nablusites if you like. It won't change the fact that the region known as Palestine has had a resident population for the last 6-10 thousand years, they've been called Palestinians since the days of the Roman Empire, and only some of those folks were of the Jewish faith.

Casually declaring the resident population "Arabs" and saying they should all go live in an Arab country is extremely racist thinking. They are the indigenous population, and if anyone has a right to live in Palestine it would be them.

That particular territory has been invaded and used by whoever was in ascendency for thousands of Years. Out of most of the population there the Jewish people were the least likely to interbreed with the conquerors, weather they were Canaanite, Jebusites, Greek, Romans, etc.

Perhaps so. But many of them did marry their neighbors and many of them converted to other faiths, with the end result that genetic study after genetic study reveals the closest relatives to the Jews of the Jerusalem area are the Muslim and Christian Palestinians from the same place.

The idea that Palestinians are some sort of alien interlopers is pure propaganda. The Palestinians are the indigenous population, whether they are Jews, Christians, Muslims, or other. Their religious beliefs don't change their ancestry, ethnicity, or place of origin.

 

[angelo]

So we are admitting that the Jews have claims to this land as have others. At least we are getting somewhere.