What should Israel do?

[Arctish]

So we are admitting that the Jews have claims to this land as have others. At least we are getting somewhere.

Of course they have claims. But Zionists want exclusive claims, and the only way to realize them is to deny the legitimate claims of others. Hence, ethnic cleansing of non-Jews and denying the human rights of the Palestinian people.

Personally, I favor the one-state solution. I doubt the Israelis will ever withdraw from the Occupied Territories. Sooner or later they're going to have to learn how to get along with the indigenous folks. They might as well get used to treating their neighbors the way they want to be treated themselves. The fact the Palestinians are their kissing cousins should help, but only if the Israelis are willing to admit the obvious family connection.

 

[Togo]

I'm not the one here claiming the Jews were really Palestinians in disguise. For the record it's not race but culture and beliefs that is different

Yes, your position is based on your beliefs about the culture, beliefs, and other features of this racial/ethnic group.

 

[untermensche]

Religions are human systems of delusion. Delusions have no rights to land.

No country should be tied in any way to a religion.

People who are Jewish should not be given superior rights in any country. That is in an incredibly bad idea.

 

[angelo]

Do they have superior rights to anyone else in the world? I don't think so. For that matter, islam should have even less rights unless they reform it like xtianity did centuries ago because it's a death cult.

 

[untermensche]

Do they have superior rights to anyone else in the world? I don't think so. For that matter, islam should have even less rights unless they reform it like xtianity did centuries ago because it's a death cult.

Actually the US protection at the UN has given them superior rights to most of the world.

Few countries could commit the flagrant crimes Israel carries out with regularity and get away with it. Their system of oppression would have been shut down a long time ago if it existed in another country.

 

[Sarpedon]

For that matter, islam should have even less rights unless they reform it like xtianity did centuries ago because it's a death cult.

So injustice is fine so long as it happens to someone you hate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Does that mean you will have no problem when the inevitable occurs and someone takes Israel away from its citizens?

It is a simple matter really. If you can only conceive of people acting in a violent and confiscatory manner, you become unfit to live in this crowded world where we need to learn how to share. Regarding arable and liveable lands in the middle east, this is at a premium. Israel has occupied almost all of the better lands and grabbed almost all of the reliable water supplies in all of Palestine. Additionally it shows not the slightest tendency to share any of these lands and waters with Arabs. The Israeli leadership has created for the Palestinians a situation not unlike that which the Armenians faced in Turkey early in the 20th century.

The Israelis have better land because they made it that way. It's not intrinsically better.

The U.N. has reported on the environmental insufficiency of Gaza and the west bank, declaring that without a lot of remedial activity, Gaza will become unlivable within a decade.

1) I wouldn't trust such reports.

2) Hamas has turned Gaza into a hellhole. That's not Israel's fault.

It seems pretty much that way today. There simply is no room in Palestine for the Palestinians without either some relenting on the part of Israel on land and resource seizures or some sort of outside intervention.

Victory: Malthus.

Not only is Gaza not trying to improve the situation but Hamas is acting to make things worse.

(Although we don't even know how bad things actually are. That powerplant that Israel supposedly destroyed and was going to take $250M + 1 year to fix--is fixed.)

As it is, there is nothing the Arabs can do to make peace when they are being squeezed to death by an extremely oppressive occupation. It is up to the Israelis or the other nations of the region to solve this problem. Considering the extreme disorder the Iraq war has brought about in the Middle East, it is almost entirely a matter for the Israelis to deal with and they are still not convinced that humanitarian rule of law is the best thing.

If they quit shooting they'll have a de-facto peace tomorrow.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, they are Arabs then! There were roughly around 170.000 refugees in 1948 which could easily have been absorbed by Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and other Arab states. But they chose to stay in refugee camps with the blessing of the Arab states which then declared they woud push all the Jews into the sea. The rest is history.

No. They didn't choose to stay in refugee camps. The Arabs made them stay in the camps. They wouldn't make very good cannon fodder if they had decent lives.

- - - Updated - - -

Religions are human systems of delusion. Delusions have no rights to land.

No country should be tied in any way to a religion.

People who are Jewish should not be given superior rights in any country. That is in an incredibly bad idea.

Then you should oppose Hamas. Their government is *FAR* more under religious control than Israel is.

 

[arkirk]

Religions are human systems of delusion. Delusions have no rights to land.

No country should be tied in any way to a religion.

People who are Jewish should not be given superior rights in any country. That is in an incredibly bad idea.

That is short and sweet and....right! It is the special status of the Jewish religion in Palestine that conditions every one of Netanyahu's actions. This social bifurcation would happen with any religion as soon as it assumes importance in governance. There are the believers and there are the "others" in this case Muslims. We can expect no change in policies in Israel till it accepts being a secular government. Otherwise it exists for the sake of the temple.

Iran is another example. We look at this and disapprove of things like the Supreme Leader, etc. Israel has the same problem. I go along with Arctish and think it is too late for a two state solution and one hadn't ought to be necessary...just rename the place Palestine and have a single government interested in secular affairs and the problem would go away. Netanyahu would probably go mad and need to be confined to a mental institution. In my view, he is a megalomaniac devoted to his own importance and his religion is his main prop for maintaining his authority.

I feel the right changes could be made by the people living in the country if we in the U.S. would quit feeding the inequities this system of apartheid promotes...that means no more bombs, no more guns, no more military support of any kind. As it is, Netanyahu has everybody afraid of the bogey man. It appears that Hamas is a lot more tractable and would be more willing to comply with secularized government. That is mainly because they have not had the luxury of being in charge of anything and will not ever be able to accomplish a military victory. Do not assume Arabs are fanatical fools who cannot understand what is best for their people. They simply have had no opportunity to do anything to help themselves for a very long time. Digging tunnels is not rewarding work. Living in a pile of rubble without safe drinking water and sewage treatment is something I am sure they would like to abandon.

 

[arkirk]

A little note to Loren:

It is the Israeli guns that are doing all the killing. You are wrong about the lands the Israelis have seized in the west bank. They cherry picked and then built walls around their settlements and even their roads. Zionism is a plague to Palestine and it is funny as smart as you tell us you are, you just cannot seem to admit it. Why can none of us ever be right and you always be right? You think maybe you have a problem there?

 

[untermensche]

Then you should oppose Hamas. Their government is *FAR* more under religious control than Israel is.

I am for the Palestinians and the Israelis. I want them both to live with the same exact rights.

I do not want one oppressing the other as is currently happening.

Hamas is an outgrowth of oppression.

It is something the oppressor should expect. And it is something that doesn't exist in the absence of oppression.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A little note to Loren:

It is the Israeli guns that are doing all the killing. You are wrong about the lands the Israelis have seized in the west bank. They cherry picked and then built walls around their settlements and even their roads. Zionism is a plague to Palestine and it is funny as smart as you tell us you are, you just cannot seem to admit it. Why can none of us ever be right and you always be right? You think maybe you have a problem there?

Right or wrong isn't determined by the death toll but by who misbehaves. Your continued use of a bad yardstick doesn't help your position one bit.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Then you should oppose Hamas. Their government is *FAR* more under religious control than Israel is.

I am for the Palestinians and the Israelis. I want them both to live with the same exact rights.

I do not want one oppressing the other as is currently happening.

Except you want to trade the current oppression for the far more brutal oppression the Islamists apply.

Hamas is an outgrowth of oppression.

Hamas is an outgrowth of money for terrorism. Throw enough money at creating trouble and you'll get trouble. Don't throw money at it and you'll almost never get trouble.

It is something the oppressor should expect. And it is something that doesn't exist in the absence of oppression.

Oppression does not breed terrorism. Money breeds terrorism.

 

[untermensche]

Oppression does not breed terrorism.

It both breeds it and excuses it.

 

[Deepak]

Oppression does not breed terrorism.

It both breeds it and excuses it.

 

[untermensche]

It both breeds it and excuses it.

Nonviolent resistance would be the tactic I would recommend.

But it is very easy and convenient for the oppressor and those not being oppressed to say that normal morality applies to those being oppressed.

But I don't know if it does.

To say that normal morality applies does nothing but give the stronger oppressor an easier time with its oppression. It is to say there is no cost to oppression.

 

[Togo]

The Israelis have better land because they made it that way. It's not intrinsically better.

It's the fertile crescent - the most famous intrinsically better area of land in European History, that has been fought over for thousands of years.

Right or wrong isn't determined by the death toll but by who misbehaves.

!!! No it isn't. If you steal something, the behaviour of the person you steal it from makes absolutely no difference to how wrong it is.

You've got this idea that if only you can convince people that Hamas are evil, it will make Israel ok. It doesn't work that way.

 

[untermensche]

You've got this idea that if only you can convince people that Hamas are evil, it will make Israel ok. It doesn't work that way.

And the question of who was evil first doesn't seem to be of interest.

Hamas was born out of Israeli oppression. Born in the midst of decades of oppression. And even helped to grow by Israel as a counter to other Palestinian leadership. A little game carried out by an oppressor.

Israel's oppression existed long before Hamas, and it is not simply a response to Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Oppression does not breed terrorism.

It both breeds it and excuses it.

Where do you find terrorism without an external source of money?

The closest you come is things like FARC--narco-terrorism relies on drug money rather than donations but it's still external money.

 

[untermensche]

It both breeds it and excuses it.

Where do you find terrorism without an external source of money?

The closest you come is things like FARC--narco-terrorism relies on drug money rather than donations but it's still external money.

Where do you find powerful oppressors that go on and on without interference without external support and diplomatic cover at the UN?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nonviolent resistance would be the tactic I would recommend.

But it is very easy and convenient for the oppressor and those not being oppressed to say that normal morality applies to those being oppressed.

But I don't know if it does.

To say that normal morality applies does nothing but give the stronger oppressor an easier time with its oppression. It is to say there is no cost to oppression.

Nonviolent resistance would work *IF* their goal was a two-state solution.