What should Israel do?

[Arctish]

Nonviolent resistance would be the tactic I would recommend.

But it is very easy and convenient for the oppressor and those not being oppressed to say that normal morality applies to those being oppressed.

But I don't know if it does.

To say that normal morality applies does nothing but give the stronger oppressor an easier time with its oppression. It is to say there is no cost to oppression.

Nonviolent resistance would work *IF* their goal was a two-state solution.

Non-violent resistance would work if Zionism was strictly limited to a smallish portion of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, not all of it. As it stands right now, all non-violent resistance does it make it easy for Zionists to ethnically cleanse Palestine and replace the indigenous population with mostly European immigrant Jews.

Abbas and Fatah have renounced the use of violence and currently seeking a diplomatic solution to the endless fighting. Do you think this will get them their State? Do you support them in their quest? If not, then all this talk about how the Palestinians could have a state if they just stop fighting is empty rhetoric.

 

[untermensche]

Nonviolent resistance would be the tactic I would recommend.

But it is very easy and convenient for the oppressor and those not being oppressed to say that normal morality applies to those being oppressed.

But I don't know if it does.

To say that normal morality applies does nothing but give the stronger oppressor an easier time with its oppression. It is to say there is no cost to oppression.

Nonviolent resistance would work *IF* their goal was a two-state solution.

The Palestinians have several problems with non-violent resistance.

They have carefully been excluded from any significant role in the Israeli economy, even though they would be a cheaper labor source so this exclusion defies normal economic practice. So there is no kind of strike or other non-violent act that can hurt the Israeli economy even a little bit.

And a lot of Israeli violence is completely hidden from the world. So if non-violence provokes violence there are no repercussions.

It is a difficult tactic to make work for you and using it unwisely against a brutal power like Israel could get a lot of people hurt with absolutely nothing gained. Israel uses violence against non-violent protests all the time.

 

[arkirk]

A little note to Loren:

It is the Israeli guns that are doing all the killing. You are wrong about the lands the Israelis have seized in the west bank. They cherry picked and then built walls around their settlements and even their roads. Zionism is a plague to Palestine and it is funny as smart as you tell us you are, you just cannot seem to admit it. Why can none of us ever be right and you always be right? You think maybe you have a problem there?

Right or wrong isn't determined by the death toll but by who misbehaves. Your continued use of a bad yardstick doesn't help your position one bit.

So a kidnapped person who attempts to escape misbehaves and the killer is just punishing misbehavior...I see now...how you think. Who are you to tell the Palestinians they do not have the right to resist oppression? Your standards are meaningless or even worse...just a restatement of a naive and childlike form of law of the jungle. You essentially just parrot the dictates of the oppressors. That is not helpful in the consideration of how to end the oppression. But then, somebody who believes in the law of the jungle really has no interest in human rights. This thread was supposed to deal with what Israel should do. You do not even seem to understand that for this horror to end, Israel has to do something...or the U.S. or the U.N. Palestinians really have nothing they can do...except beg for mercy and get further dispossessed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nonviolent resistance would work *IF* their goal was a two-state solution.

Non-violent resistance would work if Zionism was strictly limited to a smallish portion of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, not all of it. As it stands right now, all non-violent resistance does it make it easy for Zionists to ethnically cleanse Palestine and replace the indigenous population with mostly European immigrant Jews.

Abbas and Fatah have renounced the use of violence and currently seeking a diplomatic solution to the endless fighting. Do you think this will get them their State? Do you support them in their quest? If not, then all this talk about how the Palestinians could have a state if they just stop fighting is empty rhetoric.

Non-violent resistance hasn't been tried. What's normally reported as "non-violent" means no guns.

- - - Updated - - -

Nonviolent resistance would work *IF* their goal was a two-state solution.

The Palestinians have several problems with non-violent resistance.

They have carefully been excluded from any significant role in the Israeli economy, even though they would be a cheaper labor source so this exclusion defies normal economic practice. So there is no kind of strike or other non-violent act that can hurt the Israeli economy even a little bit.

They were excluded due to the Second Intifada--it became too dangerous to allow Palestinian workers in. Self-inflicted, like almost all the problems they are suffering.

And a lot of Israeli violence is completely hidden from the world. So if non-violence provokes violence there are no repercussions.

Palestinian non-violence has never been tried.

- - - Updated - - -

Right or wrong isn't determined by the death toll but by who misbehaves. Your continued use of a bad yardstick doesn't help your position one bit.

So a kidnapped person who attempts to escape misbehaves and the killer is just punishing misbehavior...I see now...how you think. Who are you to tell the Palestinians they do not have the right to resist oppression? Your standards are meaningless or even worse...just a restatement of a naive and childlike form of law of the jungle. You essentially just parrot the dictates of the oppressors. That is not helpful in the consideration of how to end the oppression. But then, somebody who believes in the law of the jungle really has no interest in human rights. This thread was supposed to deal with what Israel should do. You do not even seem to understand that for this horror to end, Israel has to do something...or the U.S. or the U.N. Palestinians really have nothing they can do...except beg for mercy and get further dispossessed.

All that's "naive" is that I don't fall for the Palestinian propaganda.

1) You're not showing a kidnapping to resist.

2) Even if it's true that doesn't justify shooting at civilians. Shall I shoot your kids for your misdeeds?

 

[untermensche]

Non-violent resistance hasn't been tried. What's normally reported as "non-violent" means no guns.

The fact that thousands of Palestinians and hundreds of Israelis are together employing nonviolent tactics similar to those of the U.S. civil rights movement and the South African anti-Apartheid movement would come as surprising and welcome news to most Americans. Americans are largely unaware of the struggling but vibrant grassroots nonviolent movement in Palestine, because the U.S. corporate media prefers a simple, flawed story of Palestinian terrorist attacks and Israeli retaliation.

If allowed to speak, Palestinians would have cited evidence showing that Israel clearly is violently repressing peaceful dissent in Bil’in and many other villages. Tens of protesters from Bil’in have been arrested, including protest organizer Abdullah Abu Rahme. Abu Rahme was arrested three times for a total of 35 days, and has now been banned by an Israeli court from attending protests.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/invisibility-palestinian-nonviolent-resistance-new-york-times/5775

You've never been there. You read no Palestinian sources or sources critical to Israel in the least. Yet you somehow know everything about life under Israeli oppression.

 

[Arctish]

Non-violent resistance hasn't been tried.

Not true. Non-violent resistance has been occurring in Palestine since the Balfour Declaration laid out the plan to give half of Palestine to 1/10th of the population. It has continued, largely ignored, ever since. And why wouldn't the Zionists ignore it? It does nothing to stop them from seizing more and more land, and evicting more and more people, except perhaps slowing things down a bit when a farmer here or there actually gets his case heard in Israeli courts. It does nothing that threatens their absolute control of everything of value or strategic importance. The only non-violent resistance they pay attention to are the largest of the mass rallies, and their response to those is swift and brutal.

If you're wondering where to find a Palestinian Gandhi, look in the Israeli prisons where some of them are being kept, and in whatever countries took in the ones Israel simply deported.

 

[angelo]

Then you should oppose Hamas. Their government is *FAR* more under religious control than Israel is.

I am for the Palestinians and the Israelis. I want them both to live with the same exact rights.

I do not want one oppressing the other as is currently happening.

Hamas is an outgrowth of oppression.

It is something the oppressor should expect. And it is something that doesn't exist in the absence of oppression.

Is that so?? So ISIS is an oppressed bunch of murdering thugs ?

 

[angelo]

Right or wrong isn't determined by the death toll but by who misbehaves. Your continued use of a bad yardstick doesn't help your position one bit.

So a kidnapped person who attempts to escape misbehaves and the killer is just punishing misbehavior...I see now...how you think. Who are you to tell the Palestinians they do not have the right to resist oppression? Your standards are meaningless or even worse...just a restatement of a naive and childlike form of law of the jungle. You essentially just parrot the dictates of the oppressors. That is not helpful in the consideration of how to end the oppression. But then, somebody who believes in the law of the jungle really has no interest in human rights. This thread was supposed to deal with what Israel should do. You do not even seem to understand that for this horror to end, Israel has to do something...or the U.S. or the U.N. Palestinians really have nothing they can do...except beg for mercy and get further dispossessed.

Just like Mohammad did 1400 years ago, Hamas leadership is using the same tactics. Oppress the Palestinians then blame others for their misfortune. The billions of dollars that's been poured into Gaza as well as the West Bank the citizens of these places should have been able to live a life of Riley. But just like a sub Sahara country that receives millions if not billions in aid it's not getting to the people the aid is aimed at.

 

[untermensche]

I am for the Palestinians and the Israelis. I want them both to live with the same exact rights.

I do not want one oppressing the other as is currently happening.

Hamas is an outgrowth of oppression.

It is something the oppressor should expect. And it is something that doesn't exist in the absence of oppression.

Is that so?? So ISIS is an oppressed bunch of murdering thugs ?

It is an oppressor. And it deserves what the state of Israel deserves. A violent reaction to its oppression.

It deserves that reaction from the people it oppresses.

If Hamas oppresses Palestinians it too deserves a reaction, FROM THEM, not Israel. Hamas is not oppressing Israel.

 

[angelo]

So Israelis deserve to be be-headed? I'll be fucked!!!! Comparing ISIS with any others in this universe if not naive is extremely stupid and I suggest reading up on the biography of Muhammad to see that what ISIS is doing is part of what islam is about. ISIS, Hamas, Hezbolah, etc is islam in it's purest form.

 

[untermensche]

So Israelis deserve to be be-headed? I'll be fucked!!!! Comparing ISIS with any others in this universe if not naive is extremely stupid and I suggest reading up on the biography of Muhammad to see that what ISIS is doing is part of what islam is about. ISIS, Hamas, Hezbolah, etc is islam in it's purest form.

I never said ISIS deserved to be beheaded.

But the people ISIS oppresses have the right to resist that oppression. Even with violence.

But with ISIS the violence would be different. ISIS oppresses everyone is has control over. Israel only oppresses the Palestinians. It does not oppress it's own citizens.

This makes Israeli citizens a viable target. To attack them would effect the morale of Israel since Israel cares about them. Trying to lessen the morale of your oppressor is a viable military objective.

But if we attacked the civilians under the control of ISIS it would not effect the moral of ISIS. It would not be a worthwhile military target.

 

[angelo]

The anti Semitism shown by the above post I'm not going to give any satisfaction of a reply. No reply can change the anti Jewish sentiment of the poster.

 

[untermensche]

The anti Semitism shown by the above post I'm not going to give any satisfaction of a reply. No reply can change the anti Jewish sentiment of the poster.

They will tell you that saying things like this is not allowed.

But they should allow it.

I talked of the right to resist oppression and of course this must be Antisemitism because Israel is doing so much oppressing.

 

[Sarpedon]

The anti Semitism shown by the above post I'm not going to give any satisfaction of a reply. No reply can change the anti Jewish sentiment of the poster.

But your openly stated bigotry against muslims is A-OK.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

:staff:

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The fact that thousands of Palestinians and hundreds of Israelis are together employing nonviolent tactics similar to those of the U.S. civil rights movement and the South African anti-Apartheid movement would come as surprising and welcome news to most Americans. Americans are largely unaware of the struggling but vibrant grassroots nonviolent movement in Palestine, because the U.S. corporate media prefers a simple, flawed story of Palestinian terrorist attacks and Israeli retaliation.

If allowed to speak, Palestinians would have cited evidence showing that Israel clearly is violently repressing peaceful dissent in Bil’in and many other villages. Tens of protesters from Bil’in have been arrested, including protest organizer Abdullah Abu Rahme. Abu Rahme was arrested three times for a total of 35 days, and has now been banned by an Israeli court from attending protests.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/invisibility-palestinian-nonviolent-resistance-new-york-times/5775

You've never been there. You read no Palestinian sources or sources critical to Israel in the least. Yet you somehow know everything about life under Israeli oppression.

Electronicintifada is basically a terrorist source. In terms of Palestinian protests "non-violent" means without guns. It doesn't mean Ghandi tactics.

 

[untermensche]

If allowed to speak, Palestinians would have cited evidence showing that Israel clearly is violently repressing peaceful dissent in Bil’in and many other villages. Tens of protesters from Bil’in have been arrested, including protest organizer Abdullah Abu Rahme. Abu Rahme was arrested three times for a total of 35 days, and has now been banned by an Israeli court from attending protests.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/invisibility-palestinian-nonviolent-resistance-new-york-times/5775

You've never been there. You read no Palestinian sources or sources critical to Israel in the least. Yet you somehow know everything about life under Israeli oppression.

Electronicintifada is basically a terrorist source. In terms of Palestinian protests "non-violent" means without guns. It doesn't mean Ghandi tactics.

You demonstrate my point with your comments.

But please tell me how you know so much about the conditions of Palestinian oppression.

 

[angelo]

The anti Semitism shown by the above post I'm not going to give any satisfaction of a reply. No reply can change the anti Jewish sentiment of the poster.

But your openly stated bigotry against muslims is A-OK.

Depends on what you mean by muslims. I detest islam much more than I detest any other religion. Does that clear it up?

 

[Sarpedon]

It's always been perfectly clear to me, thanks. Your attempt to distinguish your dislike of the religion from the dislike of followers of the religion is a transparent canard.

For that matter, islam should have even less rights unless they reform it like xtianity did centuries ago because it's a death cult.

In this post, even though you state "islam" should have <fewer> rights, it is fairly obvious that you mean 'muslims.' The reasons are simple. Religions don't have rights, any more than furniture has rights. People have rights, and if you talk about reducing rights for a religion, you are really talking about reducing the rights of people who follow it. The fact that you juxtapose "islam" and "they" is more than just bad grammar.

If you deny this, please explain how one reduces the rights of a religion without reducing the rights of the human beings who are members of that religion.

 

[untermensche]

I'm no bigot. I just hate Muslims.

Just a billion people.