What should Israel do?

[Loren Pechtel]

How about terminating the fucking killing of women and children and men who are helpless? The killing is still happening there. This is not acceptable behavior for people who pretend to be civilized. They need to sit down at the table will ALL PARTIES INVOLVED AND BRING THE KILLING TO AN END. THEY HAVE THE POWER TO DO THIS.

And a table is a magical device with the power to make people come to it and see reason?

I don't see Iran even considering being at the table.

I don't see Syria even considering being at the table.

I don't see Qatar even considering being at the table.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How about terminating the fucking killing of women and children and men who are helpless? The killing is still happening there. This is not acceptable behavior for people who pretend to be civilized. They need to sit down at the table will ALL PARTIES INVOLVED AND BRING THE KILLING TO AN END. THEY HAVE THE POWER TO DO THIS.

You are correct "they" have the power to do so. But in order to have a "they", there must be mutual agreement. HAMAS won't stop rocketing and won't agree to a cease fire.

It tentatively appears that they HAVE, in fact, agreed to a temporary ceasefire to give room to negotiate a long-term solution. It also seems likely that a ceasefire deal that includes the lifting of the blockade in some fashion would be accepted at face value.

It further appears that since the first couple days of the fighting, the Iron Dome has been able to reduce Israeli casualties to ZERO, and that Israel's stated military goal is not to protect the lives of its citizens, but to create "a prolonged state of quiet." Which means Israel CAN afford to countenance a lifting of the blockade as part of a ceasefire agreement. The only reasons not to are ideological in nature.

My only criticism of Israel is that they are far too temperate in their use of force.

That sounds so familiar....

 

[arkirk]

You are correct "they" have the power to do so. But in order to have a "they", there must be mutual agreement. HAMAS won't stop rocketing and won't agree to a cease fire.

It tentatively appears that they HAVE, in fact, agreed to a temporary ceasefire to give room to negotiate a long-term solution. It also seems likely that a ceasefire deal that includes the lifting of the blockade in some fashion would be accepted at face value.

It further appears that since the first couple days of the fighting, the Iron Dome has been able to reduce Israeli casualties to ZERO, and that Israel's stated military goal is not to protect the lives of its citizens, but to create "a prolonged state of quiet." Which means Israel CAN afford to countenance a lifting of the blockade as part of a ceasefire agreement. The only reasons not to are ideological in nature.

My only criticism of Israel is that they are far too temperate in their use of force.

That sounds so familiar....

Where did all this hatred come from? Hamas and the rockets always was a lame excuse. If there is peace, it looks like Raytheon will be laying off a few employees. The rocket threat already was reduced before the murder of innocents started. I am still baffled as to why we have tax money diverted to Israel in the first place. If I had any say, they would not have had the weapons for this slaughter and ruination of homes for a long time and they would have had to settle and make peace.

I am really tired of hearing this crap of Israel having the right to defend itself when it is and always has been clearly the aggressor. When you realize that Gaza had no army, it should not even be called a war.

Max and his buddies seems bent on violence. It looks like racism to me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are correct "they" have the power to do so. But in order to have a "they", there must be mutual agreement. HAMAS won't stop rocketing and won't agree to a cease fire.

It tentatively appears that they HAVE, in fact, agreed to a temporary ceasefire to give room to negotiate a long-term solution. It also seems likely that a ceasefire deal that includes the lifting of the blockade in some fashion would be accepted at face value.

All that's blockaded is weapons and dual-use stuff. Any letting up on the blockade will make the next fight worse.

It further appears that since the first couple days of the fighting, the Iron Dome has been able to reduce Israeli casualties to ZERO, and that Israel's stated military goal is not to protect the lives of its citizens, but to create "a prolonged state of quiet." Which means Israel CAN afford to countenance a lifting of the blockade as part of a ceasefire agreement. The only reasons not to are ideological in nature.

That's a matter of luck. The near evacuation of the areas closest to Gaza are also a major cost to Israel.

 

[Togo]

It tentatively appears that they HAVE, in fact, agreed to a temporary ceasefire to give room to negotiate a long-term solution. It also seems likely that a ceasefire deal that includes the lifting of the blockade in some fashion would be accepted at face value.

All that's blockaded is weapons and dual-use stuff.

Source please.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It tentatively appears that they HAVE, in fact, agreed to a temporary ceasefire to give room to negotiate a long-term solution. It also seems likely that a ceasefire deal that includes the lifting of the blockade in some fashion would be accepted at face value.

All that's blockaded is weapons and dual-use stuff.

And the "dual use stuff" includes everything from consumer electronics to safety scissors.

Palestinian barbers have been complaining for years that they can't even get shampoo without the tunnel smugglers.

That's a matter of luck.

No, that's a matter of MONEY. Israel has spent several years and close to a billion dollars developing a defense system that renders Hamas' rocket attacks utterly futile.

A question to ponder: how do you think Israel would respond if Hamas suddenly converted half of its rocket arsenal into a set of highly effective anti-aircraft weapons?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Where did all this hatred come from?

Zionism.

Shlomo Wasertal, who hopes to return to his former Gush Katif home [in Gaza], says that the world’s reaction is merely one episode in a long history of anti-Semitism. “After two thousand years of living in the Diaspora, of pogroms, and then the Holocaust, we are fighting stronger than ever for our homeland,” he says.

He says it was a mistake to pull out of Gaza and that Israel needs to "hold on tightly to Judea and Samaria” – biblical names for the West Bank, a land currently settled by 500,000 Israelis, and which Palestinians see as part of their future state.

While the conclusion of Israel’s operation in Gaza – the third in just a decade – is still unclear, residents here and throughout Israel are asking: How long until the next war?

Nitzan resident Nofar Damri says that Israel is too timid, and too compassionate, to finish the job in Gaza. “Hamas’ most powerful weapon is the mercy of the Jews,” she says.

“There’s no reason that [Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu] doesn’t give them the order to do whatever they want, however they want, and then they wouldn’t even have to make an effort. In a few months there would be no Gaza,” she adds, clapping her hands sharply.

The Israeli government is too dependent on Western support to be fully open about its motives, but it boils down to this: they want the West Bank, they want Gaza, and they want the Palestinians to disappear.

Zionism is just the Jewish version of Jihadism, and even uses most of the same rhetoric. The Zionists are following the example set by the Torah -- in which the Hebrews massacred the Canaanites and stole their land -- just as closely as the Jihadists are following the example of the Quran.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All that's blockaded is weapons and dual-use stuff.

And the "dual use stuff" includes everything from consumer electronics to safety scissors.

Palestinian barbers have been complaining for years that they can't even get shampoo without the tunnel smugglers.

That's a matter of luck.

No, that's a matter of MONEY. Israel has spent several years and close to a billion dollars developing a defense system that renders Hamas' rocket attacks utterly futile.

A question to ponder: how do you think Israel would respond if Hamas suddenly converted half of its rocket arsenal into a set of highly effective anti-aircraft weapons?

Making up stories about what's blockaded doesn't make it true.

http://www.cogat.idf.il/Sip_Storage/FILES/4/4014.pdf

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And the "dual use stuff" includes everything from consumer electronics to safety scissors.

Palestinian barbers have been complaining for years that they can't even get shampoo without the tunnel smugglers.

That's a matter of luck.

No, that's a matter of MONEY. Israel has spent several years and close to a billion dollars developing a defense system that renders Hamas' rocket attacks utterly futile.

A question to ponder: how do you think Israel would respond if Hamas suddenly converted half of its rocket arsenal into a set of highly effective anti-aircraft weapons?

Making up stories about what's blockaded doesn't make it true.

http://www.cogat.idf.il/Sip_Storage/FILES/4/4014.pdf

Nor do Israeli publicity materials actually reflect the REALITY of what does and does not get through the border. As a purely hypothetical exercise: when an Israeli soldier inspects your truck and tells you that you have to surrender all of the laundry detergent you were planning to sell at the market, do you:

a) Show him the list of prohibited materials and point out to him that the laundry detergent isn't on it and thus he should allow you to get in anyway (good luck with that!)
b) Call your lawyer
c) Call the Palestinian authority
d) Turn your truck around and try again some other day
e) Run the blockade

Of these options, only the last one results in your product actually getting IN to Gaza. So which one would you, a humble merchant, be more likely to choose?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And the "dual use stuff" includes everything from consumer electronics to safety scissors.

Palestinian barbers have been complaining for years that they can't even get shampoo without the tunnel smugglers.

That's a matter of luck.

No, that's a matter of MONEY. Israel has spent several years and close to a billion dollars developing a defense system that renders Hamas' rocket attacks utterly futile.

A question to ponder: how do you think Israel would respond if Hamas suddenly converted half of its rocket arsenal into a set of highly effective anti-aircraft weapons?

Making up stories about what's blockaded doesn't make it true.

http://www.cogat.idf.il/Sip_Storage/FILES/4/4014.pdf

Nor do Israeli publicity materials actually reflect the REALITY of what does and does not get through the border. As a purely hypothetical exercise: when an Israeli soldier inspects your truck and tells you that you have to surrender all of the laundry detergent you were planning to sell at the market, do you:

a) Show him the list of prohibited materials and point out to him that the laundry detergent isn't on it and thus he should allow you to get in anyway (good luck with that!)
b) Call your lawyer
c) Call the Palestinian authority
d) Turn your truck around and try again some other day
e) Run the blockade

Of these options, only the last one results in your product actually getting IN to Gaza. So which one would you, a humble merchant, be more likely to choose?

And where are the reports of things like that happening?

(Now, if there's explosives hidden in the detergent that's another matter--but that's not an attempt to import detergent. Israel has caught a lot of smuggling.)

 

[arkirk]

All that's blockaded is weapons and dual-use stuff.

Source please.

Loren: How is chocolate a dual use stuff? Please explain why just eating is dual use?

 

[Togo]

And where are the reports of things like that happening?

All over the internet, from media sources, and NGOs. You know, the ones you say are all biased.
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/gaza_agriculture_25_05_2010_fact_sheet_english.pdf

Still waiting for a source that tells me that checkpoints actually operate according to the glossy brochure you found. Are you going to provide one?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Source please.

Loren: How is chocolate a dual use stuff? Please explain why just eating is dual use?

See chocolate on that list??



Note that in the past Israel embargoed anything going to Hamas. Their list of what was actually banned was secret, the list that was on the web at that time was based on denied imports--but that doesn't distinguish banned goods from shipments that were banned because they were going to Hamas. Thus the list was mostly fiction.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And where are the reports of things like that happening?

All over the internet, from media sources, and NGOs. You know, the ones you say are all biased.
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/gaza_agriculture_25_05_2010_fact_sheet_english.pdf

Still waiting for a source that tells me that checkpoints actually operate according to the glossy brochure you found. Are you going to provide one?

That brochure of yours comes from some source in Gaza, not the UN.

 

[laruan]

this may have been covered some where along the line BUT does anyone know why the rockets that are fired from GAZA seem to land harmlessly in the desert with very few reported casualties , and Israeli missiles seem to blow up everything and anything and cause many casualties..

 

[Sarpedon]

Better guidance systems?

 

[Derec]

Better guidance systems?

It's also easier to hit something in Gaza. Even Hamas rockets that fail to clear the border and land within Gaza have a better chance of hitting something or killing someone than those that actually clear the border.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

this may have been covered some where along the line BUT does anyone know why the rockets that are fired from GAZA seem to land harmlessly in the desert with very few reported casualties , and Israeli missiles seem to blow up everything and anything and cause many casualties..

The Palestinian rockets are at best free-flight artillery rockets--a weapon that is notoriously inaccurate even when built by a superpower. (Their realistic military use is firing huge numbers at an area as they don't need anything like the launching system tube artillery needs.) Many are locally produced weapons without anything like the quality control our versions would have--and a pretty small difference in a fin or the nozzle can translate to a big deviation from the direction you pointed the rocket. Furthermore, they generally launch from some pretty crude launchers:




And when they're on course the general result these days is:


(The camera tracking leaves a lot to be desired and once the booster is spent you'll lose track for a while.)

Israel, however, is firing mostly stuff with terminal guidance. Bombs and missiles will rarely miss, GPS-guided artillery isn't quite so accurate but still good enough that unless they get shelter from the terrain the target is probably within the burst radius of the shell.

- - - Updated - - -

Better guidance systems?

It's also easier to hit something in Gaza. Even Hamas rockets that fail to clear the border and land within Gaza have a better chance of hitting something or killing someone than those that actually clear the border.

I wouldn't say that--it's that there's no intercepts of rockets that are falling into Gaza. (Nor could there be, Iron Dome is pretty short ranged.)

 

[arkirk]

All your worries about Hamas destroying Israel with rockets...is just so much smoke out of your ass. Blowing up three U. N. schools/shelters with coordinates provided by the U.N. with "precision" ordinance is a crime against humanity...regardless of whether you consider Palestinian women and children and old people to be humans. Actually, members of Hamas are also humans fighting back the same way a cornered rat would fight...with anything and everything at their disposal. Let's see here...more than 1900 Palestinians dead and most of them civilians versus 2 Israeli civilians. Hamas actually has a higher percentage of its victims combattants (military personnel) than Israel. Come down off you high horse and see this for what it is...a criminal invasion and violation of Palestinian human rights and a crime against humanity...not just this one crime, but repeated crimes.

It is time to recognize who the victims are and quit letting Israel off the hook for things any other government less well armed would pay a heavy price. Loren and Derek have no idea of what it is like to live for 60+ years under occupation. They have not seen members of their own family bleeding to death in a hospital that is being smashed by bombs. They talk of these Palestinians as if they were some kind of rabid animals fit only to kill and divert the conversation from the human suffering to the technicalities of high and low tech missiles.

I am not hearing from them any suggestions as to a way of ending the suffering...just hackneyed Israeli propaganda. Offers from Hamas to make peace have been ignored by Netanyahu for years. Israel is mainly threatened by the growing understanding worldwide that Hamas has a legitimate existence. It was formed in the midst of Israeli military destruction of the homeland of its people. 60+ years of invasion, bombing, assassination of Palestinian leaders, propping up dictators like Mubarak in Egypt, closing borders, putting the Gazans on a "diet," and mowing Palestinians down like grass in front of a lawn mower...it is no wonder there is a resistance.

I for one feel that for peace to come to the region will entail a lot forgiveness on the part of Palestinians of Israeli atrocities. But that forgiveness will never take shape with continuing Israeli atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank. I don't buy anything Israeli and object strenuously to my government sending them weapons.

 

[Deepak]

All your worries about Hamas destroying Israel with rockets...is just so much smoke out of your ass. Blowing up three U. N. schools/shelters with coordinates provided by the U.N. with "precision" ordinance is a crime against humanity...regardless of whether you consider Palestinian women and children and old people to be humans. Actually, members of Hamas are also humans fighting back the same way a cornered rat would fight...with anything and everything at their disposal. Let's see here...more than 1900 Palestinians dead and most of them civilians versus 2 Israeli civilians. Hamas actually has a higher percentage of its victims combattants (military personnel) than Israel. Come down off you high horse and see this for what it is...a criminal invasion and violation of Palestinian human rights and a crime against humanity...not just this one crime, but repeated crimes.

It is time to recognize who the victims are and quit letting Israel off the hook for things any other government less well armed would pay a heavy price. Loren and Derek have no idea of what it is like to live for 60+ years under occupation. They have not seen members of their own family bleeding to death in a hospital that is being smashed by bombs. They talk of these Palestinians as if they were some kind of rabid animals fit only to kill and divert the conversation from the human suffering to the technicalities of high and low tech missiles.

I am not hearing from them any suggestions as to a way of ending the suffering...just hackneyed Israeli propaganda. Offers from Hamas to make peace have been ignored by Netanyahu for years. Israel is mainly threatened by the growing understanding worldwide that Hamas has a legitimate existence. It was formed in the midst of Israeli military destruction of the homeland of its people. 60+ years of invasion, bombing, assassination of Palestinian leaders, propping up dictators like Mubarak in Egypt, closing borders, putting the Gazans on a "diet," and mowing Palestinians down like grass in front of a lawn mower...it is no wonder there is a resistance.

I for one feel that for peace to come to the region will entail a lot forgiveness on the part of Palestinians of Israeli atrocities. But that forgiveness will never take shape with continuing Israeli atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank. I don't buy anything Israeli and object strenuously to my government sending them weapons.

While I don't think the Israelis putting hard-liners like Netanyahu back in power is doing them any favors, some recognition must be given that this is also a reaction. But I'm not sure I buy the lawn mower analogy. Let's not forget that Hamas' stated goal is to rid the area of all Jews. Prior to that multiple cease-fire agreements have been ended by assassination attempts on Jewish diplomats and aggressive action by every one of Israel's neighbors by Palestinian proxy. Let's not forget that The Palestinian Nationalist movement sided with Hitler and the Axis powers in WW2 with the intention of expelling the Jews from the region.

The current situation is one born from reaction from both sides, and military victory largely from one side. If those events went the other way, I have no doubts that we would have been witness to real atrocities. Any lopsided nature to the current situation is only due to a lack of means IMO.

Forgiveness and recognition of humanity is needed from both sides here.