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What TV are you watching and how would you rate it? [Revive from FRDB]

Westworld 5/10

I'm a sci-fi nerd. I should be eating this up. I'm just not. I get the feeling they're just milking the hell out of a pretty simple premise. Ie, when can we say that an AI is conscious. It's also been explored extensively in sci-fi before this. Especially Star Trek. These robots aren't even close to being conscious. So much for a "moral dilemma". The fact that they are well made and look human, ehe... where's the moral dilemma? The fact that the robots is retaining some of their memories after deaths isn't evidence of consciousness. Creativity isn't either evidence of consciousness. These robots don't have feelings. How about starting there?

The whole "moral dilemma" regarding the "psycho" guy who just uses Westworld to rape and murder. Well... these are just robots. There's no harm here. I've done horrible things to AI characters when I've played computer games. I'm not losing any sleep over it. So I'm not sure why they keep showing it in every single episode. He's just doing all his vile atrocities to robots. If using a fleshlight isn't rape, than neither is this much to show.

It seems like the only payoff is seeing semi-nudity and graphic violence. If I want to see that there's better films. Porn for instance.

The glitch and the conflicting story lines arc is boring to anybody who knows anything about computer programming. Just fucking solve it by having a default behavior the robots can fall back on when there's a conflict. The advanced genius programmers of the future didn't think of that. It's pretty basic even with today's AI. We've been doing this since the dawn of programming.

The dialogue when they talk about the programming is all hand waving. Boring. If I didn't care about Midiclorians I'm not going to start caring about this either.

I think the original was better. The 1973 classic with Yul Brynner. Also, had nothing to do with the robots getting conscious. It was much simpler. One robot had his limitation on harming humans break, so he started on a killing spree. See, conflict! Please do that Westworld. Because at the moment, this is a yawnfest.

I'm on episode four now, and I'm not sure if I will be able to keep going. It's well made. There's nothing wrong about the acting. But I haven't been able to identify a single interesting conflict.
 
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DrZ, my wife would be wanting to beat you with a bag of quarters if she read your review. She loves that show and watches each episode at least three times. She was never much of a sci-fi nerd so doesn't know the history of AI in the genre. I happened to catch the original movie being played and recorded it for her and she enjoyed that as well.

Personally, I'd give the HBO series a six.
 
ZiprHead said:
DrZ, my wife would be wanting to beat you with a bag of quarters if she read your review. She loves that show and watches each episode at least three times. She was never much of a sci-fi nerd so doesn't know the history of AI in the genre. I happened to catch the original movie being played and recorded it for her and she enjoyed that as well.

Personally, I'd give the HBO series a six.
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Lucky for me I never leave home without my horned Viking helmet.
 
DrZoidberg said:
ZiprHead said:
DrZ, my wife would be wanting to beat you with a bag of quarters if she read your review. She loves that show and watches each episode at least three times. She was never much of a sci-fi nerd so doesn't know the history of AI in the genre. I happened to catch the original movie being played and recorded it for her and she enjoyed that as well.

Personally, I'd give the HBO series a six.
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Lucky for me I never leave home without my horned Viking helmet.
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It's good to be prepared. Stockholm and Saginaw MI are very close together. ;)
 
Leah Remini's Scientology Slam 9/10

She's doing a good thing with this show, and it appears to be popular, they've been putting out more episodes than scheduled. I read reviews that complained it's nothing new. Who the fuck cares, the more the merrier. She's giving a very convincing portrayal of this evil religion with all the believable testimony about it. If Scientologists are watching, they can see that a good life is possible after leaving. I hope she keeps it up. I deducted a point only for the repetitive disclaimers. It is funny though when each week she reads the stupid propaganda letter from the church attacking her featured guest that week.
 
blastula said:
Leah Remini's Scientology Slam 9/10

She's doing a good thing with this show, and it appears to be popular, they've been putting out more episodes than scheduled. I read reviews that complained it's nothing new. Who the fuck cares, the more the merrier. She's giving a very convincing portrayal of this evil religion with all the believable testimony about it. If Scientologists are watching, they can see that a good life is possible after leaving. I hope she keeps it up. I deducted a point only for the repetitive disclaimers. It is funny though when each week she reads the stupid propaganda letter from the church attacking her featured guest that week.
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I enjoyed the first three episodes and found it quite interesting but after a while Leah starts to grate. I don't understand why anyone would get involved with them, they are creepy. I keep meaning to go to their information center in Hollywood but have yet to get round to it. A bit scared to actually. The had two places in the city I live, one was in the mall. Both have closed down long ago. Weirdos.


Diners, Drive Ins and Dives, 8/10; Host Guy Fieri visits various low end eateries in the USA and further afield and samples the establishment's signature dish. It's a funny and informative show. I'd love to cook some of these dishes featured. Some really tasty food out there.
 
Grace & Frankie - Sam Watterson, Lilli Tomlin, Martin Sheen and Jane Fonda. I love it....it's hilarious.
 
ZiprHead said:
DrZ, my wife would be wanting to beat you with a bag of quarters if she read your review. She loves that show and watches each episode at least three times. She was never much of a sci-fi nerd so doesn't know the history of AI in the genre. I happened to catch the original movie being played and recorded it for her and she enjoyed that as well.

Personally, I'd give the HBO series a six.
Click to expand...

So thanks to your girlfriend I watched through all of it.




All the twists... so fucking obvious. Yeah, the center of the maze would be consciousness. Ohmahfukkengawd that was obvious. When that was the big pay off at the end. Is that really the best the HBO talent could come up with?

Episode 7 was the first episode where it got a little interesting. Too bad I'd figured out from the first episode that Bernard was a replicant. So the least surprising twist ever. The fact that he also was a replicant version of Arnold, was incredibly obvious. But for some reason I only worked it out in episode 7. But I should have been able to figure it our right from the start. It was so fucking obvious.

And lastly... why the hell wasn't episode 10 the first episode? That's the first rule of script writing. Start as late as possible. Start in the midst of the action, when it's interesting. They dropped the ball on that one. There's also the problem of heritage. The original West World from 73' is one of my favourite films. The whole premise is that one of the robots start killing people. So we know that's going to happen. So we're just waiting for it to happen. 9 episodes of warm-up is too much. Got boring.

The brothel mamma having been programmed right from the start to break out of the park with the help of programming from Arnold. They told us in the first episode that Arnold was going to sabotage it. How else would he do it? It was fun that she couldn't accept that she didn't have free will.

And finally... MIDI-FUCKING-CLORIANS. I cannot believe they did it.

Reality check... we don't actually have a theory of how consciousness emerges that works.

So:
1) Explaining the fictional version doesn't teach us anything about the real world.
2) It's hand waving.
3) It's not interesting
4) It adds nothing to the story but boring dialogue.

It would be more interesting to not explain it. Let the audience wonder about it. Nope. They just droned on and on and on about it.

There was some thing I loved about it. Especially Dolores true love for that cowboy I forget the name of. That was really good.



I wonder if this film is made for people who believe that the mind can somehow break free from our genetic programming and exercise some sort of unembodied control over our choices? Ie, scientific illiterates. It would explain a lot.
 
Finished Season 2 of The Man in High Castle.

Season 1 had a slow burn effect going. Really liked Season 1.
Season 2 had a lot more bang, but still plenty of suspense. Season 2 was even better.

I'm nervous Season 3 will have trouble, unless they have more book to go by. I think it'd be best to let the viewer fill in the holes, than to try and let them end the mystery.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Finished Season 2 of The Man in High Castle.

Season 1 had a slow burn effect going. Really liked Season 1.
Season 2 had a lot more bang, but still plenty of suspense. Season 2 was even better.

I'm nervous Season 3 will have trouble, unless they have more book to go by. I think it'd be best to let the viewer fill in the holes, than to try and let them end the mystery.
Click to expand...

They've already departed plenty from the book. I think that train has left the station. Also, the book is a lot about the meta narrative in the Grasshopper Lies Heavy. That's just been lifted completely from the series.

Also, in Dick's notes, his sequel to Man in the High castle would have involved invading aliens (from outer space). He also made short story unofficial sequels that featured time travel. I hope they film makers will ignore the authors own ideas
 
DrZoidberg said:
ZiprHead said:
DrZ, my wife would be wanting to beat you with a bag of quarters if she read your review. She loves that show and watches each episode at least three times. She was never much of a sci-fi nerd so doesn't know the history of AI in the genre. I happened to catch the original movie being played and recorded it for her and she enjoyed that as well.

Personally, I'd give the HBO series a six.
Click to expand...

So thanks to your girlfriend I watched through all of it.




All the twists... so fucking obvious. Yeah, the center of the maze would be consciousness. Ohmahfukkengawd that was obvious. When that was the big pay off at the end. Is that really the best the HBO talent could come up with?

Episode 7 was the first episode where it got a little interesting. Too bad I'd figured out from the first episode that Bernard was a replicant. So the least surprising twist ever. The fact that he also was a replicant version of Arnold, was incredibly obvious. But for some reason I only worked it out in episode 7. But I should have been able to figure it our right from the start. It was so fucking obvious.

And lastly... why the hell wasn't episode 10 the first episode? That's the first rule of script writing. Start as late as possible. Start in the midst of the action, when it's interesting. They dropped the ball on that one. There's also the problem of heritage. The original West World from 73' is one of my favourite films. The whole premise is that one of the robots start killing people. So we know that's going to happen. So we're just waiting for it to happen. 9 episodes of warm-up is too much. Got boring.

The brothel mamma having been programmed right from the start to break out of the park with the help of programming from Arnold. They told us in the first episode that Arnold was going to sabotage it. How else would he do it? It was fun that she couldn't accept that she didn't have free will.

And finally... MIDI-FUCKING-CLORIANS. I cannot believe they did it.

Reality check... we don't actually have a theory of how consciousness emerges that works.

So:
1) Explaining the fictional version doesn't teach us anything about the real world.
2) It's hand waving.
3) It's not interesting
4) It adds nothing to the story but boring dialogue.

It would be more interesting to not explain it. Let the audience wonder about it. Nope. They just droned on and on and on about it.

There was some thing I loved about it. Especially Dolores true love for that cowboy I forget the name of. That was really good.



I wonder if this film is made for people who believe that the mind can somehow break free from our genetic programming and exercise some sort of unembodied control over our choices? Ie, scientific illiterates. It would explain a lot.
Click to expand...

Too deep. It was made to make money.
 
DrZoidberg said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Finished Season 2 of The Man in High Castle.

Season 1 had a slow burn effect going. Really liked Season 1.
Season 2 had a lot more bang, but still plenty of suspense. Season 2 was even better.

I'm nervous Season 3 will have trouble, unless they have more book to go by. I think it'd be best to let the viewer fill in the holes, than to try and let them end the mystery.
Click to expand...

They've already departed plenty from the book. I think that train has left the station. Also, the book is a lot about the meta narrative in the Grasshopper Lies Heavy. That's just been lifted completely from the series.

Also, in Dick's notes, his sequel to Man in the High castle would have involved invading aliens (from outer space). He also made short story unofficial sequels that featured time travel. I hope they film makers will ignore the authors own ideas
Click to expand...
My concern is they have little backbone left. There are questions that don't need to be answered that I think they'll try to answer which may take away some of the mystery. We'll see.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
DrZoidberg said:
They've already departed plenty from the book. I think that train has left the station. Also, the book is a lot about the meta narrative in the Grasshopper Lies Heavy. That's just been lifted completely from the series.

Also, in Dick's notes, his sequel to Man in the High castle would have involved invading aliens (from outer space). He also made short story unofficial sequels that featured time travel. I hope they film makers will ignore the authors own ideas
Click to expand...
My concern is they have little backbone left. There are questions that don't need to be answered that I think they'll try to answer which may take away some of the mystery. We'll see.
Click to expand...

In the book nobody traveled back and forward between the "dimensions". That's a whole Witch's Wardrobe for them to explore.

Don't forget that this is Amazon's first successful production. I don't think they can afford, not to milk this baby til it's dead and dry
 
ZiprHead said:
DrZoidberg said:
So thanks to your girlfriend I watched through all of it.




All the twists... so fucking obvious. Yeah, the center of the maze would be consciousness. Ohmahfukkengawd that was obvious. When that was the big pay off at the end. Is that really the best the HBO talent could come up with?

Episode 7 was the first episode where it got a little interesting. Too bad I'd figured out from the first episode that Bernard was a replicant. So the least surprising twist ever. The fact that he also was a replicant version of Arnold, was incredibly obvious. But for some reason I only worked it out in episode 7. But I should have been able to figure it our right from the start. It was so fucking obvious.

And lastly... why the hell wasn't episode 10 the first episode? That's the first rule of script writing. Start as late as possible. Start in the midst of the action, when it's interesting. They dropped the ball on that one. There's also the problem of heritage. The original West World from 73' is one of my favourite films. The whole premise is that one of the robots start killing people. So we know that's going to happen. So we're just waiting for it to happen. 9 episodes of warm-up is too much. Got boring.

The brothel mamma having been programmed right from the start to break out of the park with the help of programming from Arnold. They told us in the first episode that Arnold was going to sabotage it. How else would he do it? It was fun that she couldn't accept that she didn't have free will.

And finally... MIDI-FUCKING-CLORIANS. I cannot believe they did it.

Reality check... we don't actually have a theory of how consciousness emerges that works.

So:
1) Explaining the fictional version doesn't teach us anything about the real world.
2) It's hand waving.
3) It's not interesting
4) It adds nothing to the story but boring dialogue.

It would be more interesting to not explain it. Let the audience wonder about it. Nope. They just droned on and on and on about it.

There was some thing I loved about it. Especially Dolores true love for that cowboy I forget the name of. That was really good.



I wonder if this film is made for people who believe that the mind can somehow break free from our genetic programming and exercise some sort of unembodied control over our choices? Ie, scientific illiterates. It would explain a lot.
Click to expand...

Too deep. It was made to make money.
Click to expand...

That doesn't excuse bad writing. If you want to make money, write a solid script. If you're going to sink loads of money into special effects, why not work that script more. I could have written the script to keep the mystery while also making sense. The way to write a good twist is to have two parallel stories running simultaneously. An obvious interpretation, and a less obvious interpretation. And then there's a big reveal and it was the less obvious one all along. In this they didn't care with the parallel stories. In almost every case they just had one really obvious one. So there's no pay off when the twist is revealed. Screwing up a good twist loses money.

Here's a good example of twists from West World.


In the last episode Dolores pines about the love of her life. We're led to believe that it's the park guest that's the love of her life. Which makes sense in the story arc that she's one of the old robots who have become conscious and broken her programming. But then the big twist comes and it's just her programming all along. Which is just such a major mind-fuck



Bad twists


We're told that Arnold and Robert Ford built the original park. And then Arnold left under mysterious circumstances. Ford makes replicants. That's his job. How Arnold departs the park is left a mystery. So we immediately infer it's because he didn't leave somehow. Now we just need to figure out how he didn't leave. Him being a replicant in the park would be the most obvious solution. It took me 7 episodes to figure it out. But really, super obvious all along that it was Bernard.

We're constantly shown how replicants remember things. In little flashbacks. None of the humans have these flashbacks. Only replicants. They also show that Bernard has flashbacks regarding his child = replicant. There's also a conflict between Ford and the majority owners of the park. So obviously Ford would like to have a reliable puppet in the park. Well... duh. Bernard = replicant. At some point we'd get the mind-fuck that the robots re-program themselves or other robots. This is a series about AI, it was bound to happen. I'm sure there's like a rule about that in AI sci-fi. Just makes it more obvious Bernard was a replicant.

There's also the racist mind-fuck. Whites are powerful and blacks aren't. Both as a subconscious norm and emphasized initially in the series. Then in episode 7 we get the the black lady sent from the owners to shake things up. She's in control, and then also it turns out that Arnold was black. I saw through that instantly as well. But I approve of this type of racist Borat mind-fucks. Since it makes racists look like fools. That's always good.

It was just all too obvious. I want to be fooled. I love being fooled. They failed.



West World is the perfect vehicle for the most mind-bending mind-fucks imaginable. It's a great basic idea. And they almost nailed it. They just didn't work the script enough. So they killed the mystery. They also killed the suspense by fucking up the conflict. It's conflicts that make a story compelling. That's what keeps people watching. The first conflict appears in episode 7. These are hour long episodes. 7 fucking hours in before it gets interesting. I'm sorry, but that's not good writing.


They should have started with episode 10 and then worked backwards trying to explain it. That would have left at least one murderous replicant in the park all along. Conflict!

 
DrZoidberg said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
My concern is they have little backbone left. There are questions that don't need to be answered that I think they'll try to answer which may take away some of the mystery. We'll see.
Click to expand...

In the book nobody traveled back and forward between the "dimensions". That's a whole Witch's Wardrobe for them to explore.
Click to expand...
I think this would be better unexplored. It answers the bigger question. If they try to delve too deeply, it could have BSG effect and suck.

Don't forget that this is Amazon's first successful production.
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First?
 
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