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What’s wrong with this economic philosophy?

SLD

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So this was posted by a friend on Facebook. Generating much discussion.

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Of course it’s just libertarian bullshit. I have my own opinions about each of these, but I value the opinion of some (maybe many) of you. Debunk these each, please!
 
  1. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
Translation: It’s good to be a billionaire.

(Of course it takes a LOT of people working without receiving to create even one billionaire.)
 
If you want to know the correct answer you shouldn't start from the standpoint that it's wrong, but rather that it's a hypothesis to be tested. If you're already convinced of your conclusion, then the answers you seek will be bound up with confirmation bias.

That aside, addressing the actual content doesn't have a quick or easy answer. And if I tried to give one it would assuredly be an over-simplification.
 
Those arguments strike me as Marxism with a different identification of workers and exploiters. Those arguments also treat zero-sumism as an absolute truth, when it is supposedly an economic fallacy.
 
If you want to know the correct answer you shouldn't start from the standpoint that it's wrong, but rather that it's a hypothesis to be tested. If you're already convinced of your conclusion, then the answers you seek will be bound up with confirmation bias.

That aside, addressing the actual content doesn't have a quick or easy answer. And if I tried to give one it would assuredly be an over-simplification.
Exactly. The problem with the meme is that it's a set of unevidenced claims, which present a massively oversimplified picture of the economics is purports to be about.

Debunking it is needless; The burden of proof lies with its originator, who failed to include any evidence at all for their anonymous claims, and so we can simply say that that which is asserted without evidence may dismissed without evidence.

Having said which, the first four points all assume that economics is zero-sum, which it observably is not; So not only are the claims lacking in evidence, but they contain a strong hint that they're unlikely to be widely, much less universally, true.

The fifth point is just a socio-political belief; It isn't a testable claim at all, as people in every nation would likely respond differently to the bizarre hypothetical being mooted, as a consequence of cultural expectations. It basically translates to "nobody ever wants to pay any taxes", which is a demonstrably false claim, but seems to be the thrust of the meme.

Sorry, anonymous author, but not everyone is as ignorant and self-destructively anti-social as you, you simpleton.
 
#2 and #3 are trivially obviously true. And history shows #1 to be true.

Fundamentally, this is like the Laffer curve--true but it doesn't mean what they claim it to mean. (Note the lack of units on the curve--they take it on faith that we are on the right side of the peak and never provide the slightest indication of this.)
 
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#2 and #3 are trivially obviously true.
Not so. Naturally occuring common property can be had without work, either of your own or by someone else. Nobody has to work to provide the air that I breathe.

And governments (or indeed, anyone else who produces money) can give that money away, without ever having taken any from anyone - indeed, they can't take any from anyone until they have first produced some and given it out, because nobody has any.

It's an interesting and unavoidable characteristic of fiat money that governments can't collect it as taxes, until after they've spent it.

As to history showing #1 to be true, that's a serious stretch. Very few attempts have ever been made; Failing at the first attempt (or even the first dozen attempts) to do something difficult is not a proof that that thing is impossible.

History showed it to be true that heavier than air flying machines were impossible. Right up until the Wright Brothers actually did it.

History simply isn't the kind of evidence that can show what you are claiming it to show.

Of course, it might be impossible. But it probably isn't, and as stated, the claim lacks a usable definition of "prosperity", and is therefore unfalsifiable (by any means, including a futile reference to history).

You cannot legislate the non-prosperous into prosperity by legislating the prosperous out of prosperity; But that's tautological.

What (if anything) wealth or poverty have to do with prosperity is a very complex question, which depends on how you define "prosperity", "wealth" and "poverty".

If prosperity is defined merely by wealth, then it's a simple arithmetic fact that you can legislate people into prosperity by legislating the wealthy to become less wealthy while remaining prosperous.

If the threshold of prosperity is $P, and there are ten people who have $0.5P, and one who has $100P, legislating that the wealthy person must give $0.5P to each non-prosperous individual results in a population in which all eleven residents have achieved the $P threshold, and are prosperous; Ten have $P, and one has $95P, so not only have you not reduced the wealthy person to a non-prosperous state, but he remains by far the wealthiest member of the subject population.

Of course, prosperity isn't usually defined merely in terms of exceeding a given wealth threshold. A wealthy person can easily fail to prosper, while a poor person can prosper without amassing great wealth. So the claim is essentially meaningless without a definition of what the fuck they're actually on about - it's not even wrong.
 
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So this was posted by a friend on Facebook. Generating much discussion.

View attachment 45060
Of course it’s just libertarian bullshit. I have my own opinions about each of these, but I value the opinion of some (maybe many) of you. Debunk these each, please!
All five statements are false, because they miss the most fundamental rule of all - every person can get a bigger share of the pie if you make the pie bigger. A corollary to this is that everyone should get a bigger piece of the pie.
 
#2 and #3 are trivially obviously true.
They're false. #2 takes for granted that everything is created by labor -- a premise that isn't really good for much except claiming to have proven the workers are exploited.

"- What can you do?
- I can grow bananas.
- Any banana plant can do that!"

- Don Quixote U.S.A.​

#3 takes for granted that everything is owned. The government gives people stuff without taking it from anyone every time it settles a probate case. You can't take anything from a dead person.

#3 also takes for granted that the government doesn't create anything. The government gives us safety from being murdered by our neighbors without ever taking safety from being murdered by his neighbors from anyone.
 
I generally agree.

Her in Washington our Seattle city council, state, and regional policy has made it easy to be homeless and get food and medical care.

We now have tiny homes. Small studios grouped on a lot for which there is no work requirements.

I see young healthy looking men on the street panhandling.

If there is no social and civil pressure to support yourself there will be a population that does not work.

Remember Clinton? He pushed welfare reform. Welfare is intended as short term support, not lifetime support.

If somebody gets governed assistance then somebody else pays for it. That would be true even in a communist state not based on free markets ad capitalism.

People say higher education should be free. More correctly called tax payer funded. Somebody has to build schools and provide for teachers.

When Biden says he is forgiving student debt it does not disappear, it is transferred to future insertions as national debt.

People seem to expect to have things provided for them as if it were an entitlement to have a job. An expectation that yiu can sit still where you are and a job is supposed to come to you.

Remember the Occupy Wall Street movement? Mostly new college grads who said I got a degree, where's my job?

The college educated are the ones who are supposed to create jobs.

On this topic I tend to lean towards the conservatives, the idea of self reliance is being bred out of the culture.

I grew up with a blue collar family work ethic, any work you did to support yourself is good.

One thing I disliked about Obama was his insistence that the only way to have a good life is to get a college degree.
 
Debunking it is needless; The burden of proof lies with its originator, who failed to include any evidence at all for their anonymous claims, and so we can simply say that that which is asserted without evidence may dismissed without evidence.

It can be dismissed without evidence, but unfortunately it’s not without influence.
‘Murkins in particular tend to internalize simplistic bullshit for no other reason than avoiding having to think. Debunking it is indeed pointless, since the effort of understanding why it’s bullshit is as great or greater than the effort it would have taken to reject it in the first place.
 
Philosophy implies thought and argumentation. Those are maxims, nothing more.

EDIT TO ADD:
And they sure as hell aren't social science! "Social" is a topic, "science" is a method of study.
 
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One can turn the arguments in the OP against their makers, and I have done this with many similar arguments from such people. WARNING! Something of them seem like blaming the victim.
  • Let the market decide. Have faith that the market will provide. If soldiers' and cops' services have any value, people will hire them, or else people can become vigilantes. Government coercion is unnecessary.
  • Government protection is one-size-fits-all. Vigilantism, hired guards, and mercenaries can be adjusted to individuals' protection needs and desires, while government protection cannot.
  • Government involvement in protection crowds out private investment in protection solutions, solutions that will invariably be superior to government ones.
  • Government actions always have unintended consequences that are worse than the problems that they were intended to solve, and government military and police forces are no exception.
  • "We're from the government and we're here to help" describes soldiers and cops very well.
  • A government that can protect you is a government that can jail you, and a government that can protect your property is a government that can deprive you of everything you have.
  • Tyrannical governments use military and police forces to impose their tyranny. They are not called police states for nothing.
  • People who refuse to protect themselves deserve to be conquered and beaten up and stolen from and extorted from and raped and enslaved and murdered and whatever other crimes that they might suffer. Protection laziness ought to have consequences, and government protection protects people from the consequences of their actions.
  • Crime victims are really crime enablers, and they deserve to suffer the consequences of their crime enabling.
  • The cult of crime victimhood should be recognized for it is: a part of the cult of victimhood, a very popular way for people to try to evade responsibility for their actions.
  • Life isn't fair. Some people become conquered and some people become crime victims. It's a part of life. Governments always cause more problems than they solve when they try to impose fairness with military and police forces.
  • "I was mugged, therefore you must be mugged. What makes you think that you are anything special?"
  • One should not have a sense of entitlement, like feeling entitled to a mugging-free life at zero cost to oneself, and the same for other crimes and hostile actions.
  • Self-protectors should not have to protect non-self-protectors by the government stealing from them to do so. Government protection is governments robbing Peter to protect Paul.
  • Individuals are much better at protecting themselves than governments. Therefore, government protection is unnecessary and people should not be stolen from to pay for it.
  • Advocates of government military and police forces are very condescending with their insinuation that people have no agency, that they are incapable of protecting themselves.
  • If there are any people who are not capable of protecting themselves, then private charities like vigilantes will do much better at protecting them than governments.
  • Government spending is inflationary, and spending on military and police forces is no exception.
  • Need is never a justification for anything, and need for protection does not justify getting the government to steal from self-protectors to finance the protection of those too lazy to protect themselves.
  • Government military and police forces are very collectivist and anti-individualist, complete with everybody in them dressing alike.
 
  1. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
Translation: It’s good to be a billionaire.

(Of course it takes a LOT of people working without receiving to create even one billionaire.)
You appear to be assuming billionaires don't work. That may be true for a few, but Gates, Buffett and Musk all worked their asses off.
 
  1. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
Translation: It’s good to be a billionaire.

(Of course it takes a LOT of people working without receiving to create even one billionaire.)
You appear to be assuming billionaires don't work. That may be true for a few, but Gates, Buffett and Musk all worked their asses off.
Anyone measuring their wages in the millions per day isn’t “working” for the money in the sense I was using the term, no matter how hard they are working.
 
  1. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
Translation: It’s good to be a billionaire.

(Of course it takes a LOT of people working without receiving to create even one billionaire.)
You appear to be assuming billionaires don't work. That may be true for a few, but Gates, Buffett and Musk all worked their asses off.
Anyone measuring their wages in the millions per day isn’t “working” for the money in the sense I was using the term, no matter how hard they are working.
Indeed. And while I have no doubt that many billionaires work very hard, I also have no doubt that most people who work that hard never get to be millionaires, much less billionaires.

Hard work is neither necessary, nor sufficient, to achieve billionaire status.

Good luck is certainly both necessary and (in cases of inheritance) sufficient. The Duke of Westminster would be unimaginably wealthy no matter how much or how little work he did, just because he's the winner of the aristocratic primogeniture lottery; And the inheritance of all that wealth is assured because his 24x Great-uncle, Reginald de Grey, was a drinking buddy of Edward I back in the 1290s, and so was granted a bunch of farmland in the Thames Valley that later became the London borough of Westminster, today some of the most valuable land on Earth.

Bill Gates doubtless worked hard, and was very smart. But he wasn't smarter or harder working than many of his peers; Microsoft became the dominant vendor of personal computer operating systems, partly by being in the right place at the right time, and mostly because people have to buy the OS their colleagues and peers use, to avoid compatibility issues - ensuring that one OS would become dominant and crush their opposition. Plenty of geeks in Gates' peer group never got rich - many were likely smarter and harder workers than Bill.

Being lazy is a pretty good way to avoid becoming a billionaire (unless you're born one, in which case even sloth won't save you). But working hard isn't an effective way to become a billionaire, any more than buying a lottery ticket is an effective way to become a millionaire. Sure, you can't win lotto if you don't buy a ticket; But then, you probably can't even if you do.
 
#2 and #3 are trivially obviously true.
Not so. Naturally occuring common property can be had without work, either of your own or by someone else. Nobody has to work to provide the air that I breathe.
Some work is required to gather any resource.

And governments (or indeed, anyone else who produces money) can give that money away, without ever having taken any from anyone - indeed, they can't take any from anyone until they have first produced some and given it out, because nobody has any.
No. Fiat money is an evolution of previous trade systems, it doesn't exist apart from the system it comes from.

It's an interesting and unavoidable characteristic of fiat money that governments can't collect it as taxes, until after they've spent it.
But those are two sides of the same coin.

As to history showing #1 to be true, that's a serious stretch. Very few attempts have ever been made; Failing at the first attempt (or even the first dozen attempts) to do something difficult is not a proof that that thing is impossible.
True, but it has always proven an utter failure.

Being poor can be overcome--and in a functional society able-bodied individuals usually will.

Poverty is a state of mind and can't be overcome without changing that state of mind--something nobody has succeeded at yet. And note that for most people changing the state of mind would in time get them to not being poor even if no money was provided.

History showed it to be true that heavier than air flying machines were impossible. Right up until the Wright Brothers actually did it.

History simply isn't the kind of evidence that can show what you are claiming it to show.

Of course, it might be impossible. But it probably isn't, and as stated, the claim lacks a usable definition of "prosperity", and is therefore unfalsifiable (by any means, including a futile reference to history).
The fundamental issue here is that the "wealthy" do not comprise a sufficient source to fund what you want.

You cannot legislate the non-prosperous into prosperity by legislating the prosperous out of prosperity; But that's tautological.
Doesn't make it wrong.

If prosperity is defined merely by wealth, then it's a simple arithmetic fact that you can legislate people into prosperity by legislating the wealthy to become less wealthy while remaining prosperous.

If the threshold of prosperity is $P, and there are ten people who have $0.5P, and one who has $100P, legislating that the wealthy person must give $0.5P to each non-prosperous individual results in a population in which all eleven residents have achieved the $P threshold, and are prosperous; Ten have $P, and one has $95P, so not only have you not reduced the wealthy person to a non-prosperous state, but he remains by far the wealthiest member of the subject population.
The eat-the-rich position comes in myriad ways and always presumes they're an infinite resource that can be eaten at will. It's more like 1,000 at .5P and one at 100P. (And in the real world there's a whole range of values in between.)

However, there's another problem here--if you could actually pull this off you would soon find that those people weren't prosperous anymore. The problem is that with rising resources come rising expectations. People always complain that you used to be able to raise a family on one income--but compare what you actually had. Generally, a much smaller house (our first house was bigger than anything my parents ever had), vastly inferior healthcare (because better didn't exist) and a general much lower standard of safety in society.

Of course, prosperity isn't usually defined merely in terms of exceeding a given wealth threshold. A wealthy person can easily fail to prosper, while a poor person can prosper without amassing great wealth. So the claim is essentially meaningless without a definition of what the fuck they're actually on about - it's not even wrong.
We generally agree on what it means, albeit without defining an exact threshold.
 
  1. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
Translation: It’s good to be a billionaire.

(Of course it takes a LOT of people working without receiving to create even one billionaire.)
You appear to be assuming billionaires don't work. That may be true for a few, but Gates, Buffett and Musk all worked their asses off.
Musk doesn't belong on this list.

He's a whackadoodle that got very lucky.
 
  1. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
Translation: It’s good to be a billionaire.

(Of course it takes a LOT of people working without receiving to create even one billionaire.)
You appear to be assuming billionaires don't work. That may be true for a few, but Gates, Buffett and Musk all worked their asses off.
Musk doesn't belong on this list.

He's a whackadoodle that got very lucky.
And an inheritance.
 
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