When was the point of no return for the US

[Jimmy Higgins]

On Bill Maher, Michael Moore was on and was talking about protesting million people around the Capitol Building to prevent the SCOTUS appointment. He noted that Merrick Garland was the point of no return because it happened... and there was no reaction to the gross violation of the law by McConnell and the Republicans. He then noted (and Maher agreed) that Trump will never step down, and wandered into the weeds a bit.

But I pondered, the point of no return... Was it really Merrick Garland? I thought back as to the shit the Republicans have pulled since the Contract with America and the impeachment of Clinton. Was it the Impeachment? Possibly. Here we have a situation where a sitting President was investigated for a property deal in Arkansas. Nothing could be linked to him that was illegal. So the investigation... blobbed out... in any direction it could to find something. Sounds like the Mueller Investigation, until you remember that no... there are absolutely no parallels with the Mueller Investigation seeing that a part of the Manafort trial involves a pay for play on the Trump campaign between Manafort and a Russian (oh and all the other secret attempts to actually collude with the Russians). But not to get off course here. The investigation lasted half of forever and ultimately became a trial about extra-marital affairs and Clinton's ability to recall if his Johnny Bravo had any extracurricular activities with Monica. No, not the Friends character, but Lewinsky... a woman you'd swear in the 90s would be as famous in 1000 years as Cleopatra.

The Republicans never really paid for the Impeachment. I mean, yeah, they were embarrassed, but they generally maintained control of Congress, in both Houses (gaining in the House and losing in the Senate, but holding on).

Then 2000 happened. I think 2000 is likely the beginning of the end. Here we have a GOP fake citizen revolt on a Palm Beach Canvassing Board and trial after trial to stop or slow the vote counting in numerous places. W's brother stepped aside and let Secretary of State Katherine Harris act as the GOP executioner. Then W's team, including our new SCOTUS nominee went to the Supreme Court twice to ask them to tell Florida to stop counting ballots. And in all of this, very minor protesting. And when SCOTUS ruled a ruling that it said couldn't apply anywhere else and adhered to arbitrary deadlines and handed W the election in a state that voted barely in majority for Gore, there was just resignation and depression. The people didn't react... again.

In 2003, the White House misled, at best, to the people about a threat to the US's security in Iraq. There was a good deal of protesting, and eventually the GOP finally lost power as a result of Iraq in 2006. Not the impeachment, not the 2000 election, but a war/occupation that cost lots of lives/money/time. But that anger from the populace only lasted 4 years before the people gave the reins back to the GOP after Obama signed health care legislation. So maybe it was 2010... when people allowed themselves to be lied to again by the Palins and the emerging tea party. The lies and hyper-partisan crap from the GOP wasn't enough, so the Tea Party took it to the next level.

But I think 2010 was just a stepping stone to 2016, and either the Impeachment or the 2000 Election was the start of the ball rolling towards our nation's Democratic demise.

Thoughts?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The point of no return was the 1910s and Wilson. Okay, maybe we could have turned back from the stuff Wilson did.

The Clinton impeachment was payback for the Nixon impeachment proceedings. Then a deal was struck - you don't impeach me, I don't impeach you, and Speaker Pelosi declared impeachment of Bush off the table.

 

[ideologyhunter]

A good 30 years of rage and lunacy from the GOP, leading to a brain-addled base who don't know they're being conned and believe every goddamn conspiracy story that the party peddles.

 

[Underseer]

The point of no return was when Ford pardoned Nixon.

After that, the Magna Carta was weakened and Nixon won because the president was seen as above the law. So when Reagan created a constitutional crisis by deliberately violating the law by selling advanced weapon systems to a terrorist regime, all so that he could fund a bunch of nun-rapers in Central America, nothing happened to Reagan. He got away with breaking the law, violating the constitution, arming terrorists, and funding nun-rapers. Nothing happened to him because we were already past the point of no return.

Then Bush the First started a specious war on a pack of lies, but we can pretend that people bought the lies, so technically it's not part of this conversation.

Clinton got impeached for lying under oath. That might have been a chance to turn the tide back to the rule of law, but we all know that was just the moment we as a nation decided that Democratic presidents are still held accountable to the law, but Republicans don't. So instead of restoring the rule of law, we just made the nation more hypocritical.

Then Bush II confessed to war crimes in a press conference. If the rule of law meant anything, he would have been prosecuted for that. No one in the FBI nor any other law enforcement agency seriously investigated him while Darth Jar-Jar was in power. Then when president Barrack "Appeasement" Obama decided that the law would not be enforced so that we could "let the past stay in the past." This is now a valid defense against serious crimes by powerful politicians in America. I'm surprised that the Republicans haven't tried to use this argument to stop the investigation.

Anyway, we've been on this road a long time, and half of the country cannot be convinced that the rule of law needs to be restored. Heck, they won't even acknowledge that the rule of law has been undermined.

That is thanks to a multibillion dollar propaganda machine that has been operating for decades telling them up is down and freedom is slavery until they became so unmoored from reality that they are openly debating whether or not to start a second civil war in order to make sure a fascist traitor doesn't get prosecuted for treason.

Half of the nation is making decisions based on a completely different reality from the one that we live in. Nothing you say will allow them to accept facts from this reality. They will continue making decisions in the voting booth based on facts from this alternate reality fantasyland in which treason is patriotism and opposing racism is racism.

I don't see how we can come back from this. Democracy can't work if the people making the decisions can't agree on basic facts like "Is science a real thing?" or "Are toddler concentration camps morally wrong?" or "Should treason be prosecuted if it can be proved?"

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A good 30 years of rage and lunacy from the GOP, leading to a brain-addled base who don't know they're being conned and believe every goddamn conspiracy story that the party peddles.

The government is run by a super secret Deep State conspiracy! They control the government and are pro-Hillary, but they let Putin and Trump win any way as part of their sinister conspiracy to enforce the law! MAGA! [/strawman]

 

[steve_bank]

If Nixon had gone to trial it would have resulted in the chaos we see today with Trump. Ford did the right thing.

You could say it began with the transfer of technology to Asia. Before China opened it was Taiwan and Japan. In the capaitalist free market system capital goes where it wants for max profit. There has never been any corporate loyalty to America. Jobs famoulsy said Apple would never bring back manufacturing to the USA.

Post WWII we had around 50% of global markets, now around 25%. We go around the world on a white horse with aid and military action. We somehow find the money, yet we can not maintain our critical infrastructure. A major problem is congress thinks only to the next election. China got good at making and executing a series of 5 year plans. We portray ourselves as saviors of the world, but can not take care of ourselves.

America was a feeling held by the average citizen. It appears we never had a solid foundation.

 

[phands]

1776

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

What is now known as World War One started as yet another Franco-Prussian war. Had Wilson kept the US out (and I mean really kept the US out - no favoritism like he showed before he finally sent troops in) it would have stayed as such. Instead by first intervening economically and with war supplies, and then finally with troops on the ground, the war which would have been a stalemate became a decisive western victory.

In spite of Wilson wanting better terms for peace, France was determined to punish Germany. That led to harsh terms that led to the rise of Hitler and World War Two. That in turn led to the cold war. The Twentieth Century War, 1914-1989 started with a grudge match between France and Germany and ended with US victory over the Soviet Union.

The massive amounts of military spending, and military intervention during the cold war turned the US to a militaristic state with a strong praetorian class.

Because of the war spending in WWI, and the implementation of both the Federal Reserve and the Internal Revenue Service, the US experienced two different economic downturns, one in 1920 and one in 1929. The second one led to Hoover and Roosevelt unleashing the New Deal (yes it started under Hoover) on the US and massively converting our economy into a very ugly mix of Corporatism, Keynesian, and Monetarism which we have never escaped from.

We had a bit of a good time after WWII because the US was the only major industrialized power that didn't have its infrastructure destroyed by war, but that competitive edge was eroded long ago and the spending that came with that edge never went away. By the time the 1970s came around the first signs of US decline were evident, but nothing was done about it because nobody really wanted to acknowledge it except for fringe weirdos.

The only good thing that has come over the last century were advancements in civil rights, inconsistent as it was at times. Those are at threat because of the threats posed by a century of economic and military mismanagement of the US. Those who say it started in the 1970s are acknowledging that the signs became apparent in the 1970s, so they do have that much going for them. Still the roots do run deeper.

We could have turned back in 1989 as the 20th Century War ended, but there was no will to do so in the US government. Instead the US started acting imperial in the Middle East, and has continued doing so ever since.

I could point to other notable events in history, but the US recovered from those instead of plunging off the cliff like it did under Wilson.

 

[Underseer]

If Nixon had gone to trial it would have resulted in the chaos we see today with Trump. Ford did the right thing.

That's a weak excuse for arguing for the rule of men over the rule of law.

But you are demonstrating that the conservative movement away from what the American founding fathers started predated Trump by many decades. Even all this time later you're willing to humiliate yourself with flimsy excuses for arguing against what the founding fathers tried to build.

 

[Elixir]

9/11/2001 was the point of no return IMHO.
When I first heard the words "Department of Homeland Security" it sent chills up my spine.
The threat wasn't entirely imaginary, but it was aggressively overblown by the Bush administration and over-reacted to by the American public.
That's when the Republicans realized how easily the electorate could be manipulated by manufactured fears. Over the next 15 or so years, they refined the art of political terrorism. In 2010 they opened the floodgates for special interests to create their own objects of fear (Citizens United), and in 2016, with the help of Russia, they managed to get a real professional fearmonger into the WH. Now, we're well down the rabbit hole of oligarchy, and headed for autocracy.

 

[Playball40]

I think the 2000 election. The fall out from 9/11 would have been different IMO if Gore had been president as he should have been.

9/11/2001 was the point of no return IMHO.
When I first heard the words "Department of Homeland Security" it sent chills up my spine.
The threat wasn't entirely imaginary, but it was aggressively overblown by the Bush administration and over-reacted to by the American public.
That's when the Republicans realized how easily the electorate could be manipulated by manufactured fears. Over the next 15 or so years, they refined the art of political terrorism. In 2010 they opened the floodgates for special interests to create their own objects of fear (Citizens United), and in 2016, with the help of Russia, they managed to get a real professional fearmonger into the WH. Now, we're well down the rabbit hole of oligarchy, and headed for autocracy.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I don't know if I'd call it a point of no return, but the most significant geopolitical event in our history was WWII. Twice Europe did its best to destroy itself and twice we stepped in and picked up the pieces for a song. The second time we truly became a global empire.

But for the current malaise, I'd point to the fall of Keynesianism and the rise of Monetarism in the late '70s. At that point, the Dems abandoned the new deal. What we have now is what Chomsky called the two wings of the business party: unbridled corporatism with the GOPers, and a slightly more socially friendly version from the Dems. Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

 

[steve_bank]

If Nixon had gone to trial it would have resulted in the chaos we see today with Trump. Ford did the right thing.

That's a weak excuse for arguing for the rule of men over the rule of law.

But you are demonstrating that the conservative movement away from what the American founding fathers started predated Trump by many decades. Even all this time later you're willing to humiliate yourself with flimsy excuses for arguing against what the founding fathers tried to build.

We were in the middle of the Cold War, civil rights was hot and simmering, the VN War effects were lingering, a social revolution was in process. Revolution and change was in the air, not just radicals, average people. Military morale was low.

Your response is from ignorance. A public trial opening it all up could have been catastrophic. Nixon was publicaly disgraced.

 

[Horatio Parker]

If Nixon had gone to trial it would have resulted in the chaos we see today with Trump. Ford did the right thing.

That's a weak excuse for arguing for the rule of men over the rule of law.

But you are demonstrating that the conservative movement away from what the American founding fathers started predated Trump by many decades. Even all this time later you're willing to humiliate yourself with flimsy excuses for arguing against what the founding fathers tried to build.

We were in the middle of the Cold War, civil rights was hot and simmering, the VN War effects were lingering, a social revolution was in process. Revolution and change was in the air, not just radicals, average people. Military morale was low.

Your response is from ignorance. A public trial opening it all up could have been catastrophic. Nixon was publicaly disgraced.

Just curious - what catastrophe would've ensued? Maybe the imprisonment of Nixon would've been damaging, setting precedent for a form or type of political violence, but a conviction? Not so sure that would've been a bad thing.

 

[Elixir]

Just curious - what catastrophe would've ensued? Maybe the imprisonment of Nixon would've been damaging, setting precedent for a form or type of political violence, but a conviction? Not so sure that would've been a bad thing.

Might have given pause to Trump before he decided to run... that would have been worth enduring considerable "catastrophe".

 

[steve_bank]

We were in the middle of the Cold War, civil rights was hot and simmering, the VN War effects were lingering, a social revolution was in process. Revolution and change was in the air, not just radicals, average people. Military morale was low.

Your response is from ignorance. A public trial opening it all up could have been catastrophic. Nixon was publicaly disgraced.

Just curious - what catastrophe would've ensued? Maybe the imprisonment of Nixon would've been damaging, setting precedent for a form or type of political violence, but a conviction? Not so sure that would've been a bad thing.

Social breakdown, Russian overt action. Any number of possibilities. I lived in Hartford Ctnin the early 70s. North Hartford looked like a bombed out WWII city from the riots. To dismiss it is to ignore the Chicago convention, Kent Stae, black riots, Hoover's FBI acting as his paramilitray force going adter what he judged as enemies, families being disrupted by a generation gap. Domestic terrorism like the Weathermen. The extreme right like Jon Birchers.

What the media, politicians, and the divisive home grown propaganda does not seem to realize is that we are not bullit proof. We have a breaking point. There is a thin line behind social order and chaos, we can see it from time to time. We do not have stability enforced by armed police on the streets in numbers. It is all based on a common faith and unity.

Right now today, on what basis do you have faith that a year from now water will be flowing and food will be in the stores? It is faith that everybody will conrinue to do their jobs without coersion.

 

[Horatio Parker]

We were in the middle of the Cold War, civil rights was hot and simmering, the VN War effects were lingering, a social revolution was in process. Revolution and change was in the air, not just radicals, average people. Military morale was low.

Your response is from ignorance. A public trial opening it all up could have been catastrophic. Nixon was publicaly disgraced.

Just curious - what catastrophe would've ensued? Maybe the imprisonment of Nixon would've been damaging, setting precedent for a form or type of political violence, but a conviction? Not so sure that would've been a bad thing.

Social breakdown, Russian overt action. Any number of possibilities. I lived in Hartford Ctnin the early 70s. North Hartford looked like a bombed out WWII city from the riots. To dismiss it is to ignore the Chicago convention, Kent Stae, black riots, Hoover's FBI acting as his paramilitray force going adter what he judged as enemies, families being disrupted by a generation gap. Domestic terrorism like the Weathermen. The extreme right like Jon Birchers.

What the media, politicians, and the divisive home grown propaganda does not seem to realize is that we are not bullit proof. We have a breaking point.

Sounds like a load of crap to me, tho the point that there was greater social instability then is taken.

The entire lefty wing would've been ecstatic, and what could the Birchers and Hoover, realistically, have done?

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Just curious - what catastrophe would've ensued? Maybe the imprisonment of Nixon would've been damaging, setting precedent for a form or type of political violence, but a conviction? Not so sure that would've been a bad thing.

Might have given pause to Trump before he decided to run... that would have been worth enduring considerable "catastrophe".

Exactly. Very bad for the bottom line.

 

[steve_bank]

The founding was an experiment. Could people rule themselves without an overarching political authority? We are failing the Darwin Test. We are politically unable to solve critical problems. Even without drought water shortages are looming. The mid west aquifers that water our mass agriculture are drawing down. California wells are being fouled by saltwater.

 

[steve_bank]

Social breakdown, Russian overt action. Any number of possibilities. I lived in Hartford Ctnin the early 70s. North Hartford looked like a bombed out WWII city from the riots. To dismiss it is to ignore the Chicago convention, Kent Stae, black riots, Hoover's FBI acting as his paramilitray force going adter what he judged as enemies, families being disrupted by a generation gap. Domestic terrorism like the Weathermen. The extreme right like Jon Birchers.

What the media, politicians, and the divisive home grown propaganda does not seem to realize is that we are not bullit proof. We have a breaking point.

Sounds like a load of crap to me, tho the point that there was greater social instability then is taken.

The entire lefty wing would've been ecstatic, and what could the Birchers and Hoover, realistically, have done?

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Just curious - what catastrophe would've ensued? Maybe the imprisonment of Nixon would've been damaging, setting precedent for a form or type of political violence, but a conviction? Not so sure that would've been a bad thing.

Might have given pause to Trump before he decided to run... that would have been worth enduring considerable "catastrophe".

Exactly. Very bad for the bottom line.

A load of crap? The left and right both have domestic terrorism. Oklahoma city. Political and law enforcement assassinations by the right.The thinks they will be happy if it all comes down, until they get cold, hungrey, and rule of law breaks down.

It does not take an historian to see cultural and political forces in motion. The fact that Trump has such large percentage of support shows the divide.

What makes you think next year will be as stable as today? If you can not articulate then you are blind. Trump's tax plans are setting up a potential major financial crash. Deficit is increasing and tax revenues are not.

Sleep tight. The end is in sight for me. If I were in my 20s today I would be worried.

What makes you believe your retirement planning will be worth anything when you need it? Divine intervention? Or you just assume it will be?

 

[Horatio Parker]

A load of crap? The left and right both have domestic terrorism. Oklahoma city. Political and law enforcement assassinations by the right.The thinks they will be happy if it all comes down, until they get cold, hungrey, and rule of law breaks down.

It does not take an historian to see cultural and political forces in motion. The fact that Trump has such large percentage of support shows the divide.

What makes you think next year will be as stable as today? If you can not articulate then you are blind. Trump's tax plans are setting up a potential major financial crash. Deficit is increasing and tax revenues are not.

Sleep tight. The end is in sight for me. If I were in my 20s today I would be worried.

What makes you believe your retirement planning will be worth anything when you need it? Divine intervention? Or you just assume it will be?

None of this addresses how society would've (according to you) melted down if Nixon had been tried and convicted.

I think my response was clear: the left would've been happy, and the right impotent.

Sorry about the crap thing, but it so much sounds like business as usual ie the left destabilizes society while the right stabilizes it.

I'll grant that society is a delicate thing, but I'd also caution that the whole impending doom narrative is as old as the hills.

Do you think we're more or less stable than in 1968? And was 1968 more or less stable than say 1931?

As an aside, I don't think your economic arguments make any sense at all.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The founding of the nation. The founders were an elite class. It should have come from the people with options for direct democracy, no sway by corporations-in fact, severe limits on them in all regards-, no electoral college, no slavery because all people ought to have voted, native americans, too.