# Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?

There are so many Gods and Goddesses in forums today that these places begin to look as in the days of Babel. Two camps do seem to be forming though. Those who seek on the left and and those who have found on the right.

Which camp are you in?

If you seek God, where are you looking?

If you have found your God, please supply a name. Show me yours and I will show you mine.

Regards
DL

P.S. Gnosis is knowledge that leads to wisdom. Wisdom is Sophia in our myths. She has faith in you finding her. Thank God Eve ate and Adam had the good sense to do as told and eat as well.

##### Contributor
I am not convinced that there is a good reason to worship anything. Also, without a concrete definition for the noun 'god' in this context, there is really no way to answer your question. For most definitions, there is obviously no such thing as god.

I was once a great fan of Joe Campbell. Then, I became a great fan of J. Krishnamurti. Then, I became a great fan of Richard Dawkins. Then, I became a great fan of David Benatar. Each one supplanted the authority I had placed in the last, and made me doubt the validity of any authority whatsoever other than my own conscience.

#### CJW

##### Member
I do not seek God, nor have I found God, so I'm not sure if your question applies to me. Or, perhaps, you think I am searching for god and just don't want to be honest with myself?

#### Bronzeage

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I am an idle worshipper, hardly move from one spot during the whole thing.

#### KeepTalking

##### Code Monkey
Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?

What's with the false dichotomy?

Why does anyone need to seek God? Is he hiding? If so, why?

If God actually exists, and wants me to worship him/her/it, then God knows where to find me. I can't guarantee that I will worship God, even if God does appear in front of me, but God is welcome to ask.

Neither.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?

What's with the false dichotomy?
Good question. An idol is just something to remind us of the gods, a place for them to hang out when they're among us. People using idols to find their gods are not distinct from people who seek gods.

##### Veteran Member
If there actually exists anything resembling a "god", then the place to look for it is in the Universe itself. The best way to know the creator is by studying the creation. And our best way to do that is through science, using the sense, reason, and intellect that this god putatively endowed us with.

#### braces_for_impact

##### Veteran Member
If you have found your God, please supply a name. Show me yours and I will show you mine.

You theists always say that, but you're just little teases. They always say they can show it, but they never do.

#### Tom Sawyer

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I use hard evidence in my search for gods and nothing less.

Jesus said he'd rid the world of sin and there's still sin, so that story's clearly a fake.

Odin said he'd rid the world of Frost Giants and I've never seen a Frost Giant, so that's validation for his existence. If anyone's going to dispute that, they're going to need to show me some proof of what it is that they're claiming happened to all the Frost Giants.

#### dockeen

##### Member
General observation. I don't respond well to sort of theist who arrives in a venue such as this, and approaches the community with an air of "I know something that you don't know! Look at me, I'm SO clever! I'm nominally here as a representative of my faith, but it is really about showing y'all I am way smarter than you guys are! Look at me! Look at me! This is really all about ME, look at me!"

#### jonJ

##### Member
General observation. I don't respond well to sort of theist who arrives in a venue such as this, and approaches the community with an air of "I know something that you don't know! Look at me, I'm SO clever! I'm nominally here as a representative of my faith, but it is really about showing y'all I am way smarter than you guys are! Look at me! Look at me! This is really all about ME, look at me!"

'Smarter' may not be the right term. It's more, I think, that someone has worked out a viewpoint for themselves which they think gets around all the problems faced by other theists, and they can't wait to polish it up and bring it out -- but at the back of their minds they have a nasty sinking feeling that maybe it's not so different after all. So we get this kind of cat-and-mouse game where the viewpoint is pushed out a little bit -- then pulled back -- then pushed out a bit more -- then pulled back so the holes that have opened up in it can be fixed -- then pushed out again -- until either it's too riddled with holes to hide behind, or everyone else has simply given up.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
'Smarter' may not be the right term.
I think it fits. At least within their self-image.
They've looked at all the evidence we have and they've come to the right conclusion.
Which they have validated, by coming to the right conclusion.
They must be smarter. And until we acknowledge their superiority in this matter, they don't have to share their findings with us.

It's like that jerk in math class who looks at your answer and smiles and says you can work it out for yourself.

#### braces_for_impact

##### Veteran Member
The thing about it is, every time someone appears with a new theology, there was already at least one person who's already done the same thing for each denomination out there.

Wait, I have a great cartoon for this somewhere...

Here it is.

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
I am not convinced that there is a good reason to worship anything. Also, without a concrete definition for the noun 'god' in this context, there is really no way to answer your question. For most definitions, there is obviously no such thing as god.

I was once a great fan of Joe Campbell. Then, I became a great fan of J. Krishnamurti. Then, I became a great fan of Richard Dawkins. Then, I became a great fan of David Benatar. Each one supplanted the authority I had placed in the last, and made me doubt the validity of any authority whatsoever other than my own conscience.

As all thinking people should.

Man being his own supreme being is basically what Gnostic Christianity is all about.

Keep thinking as you are.You already seek your greater self within so I have nothing to teach you.

Regards
DL

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
I do not seek God, nor have I found God, so I'm not sure if your question applies to me. Or, perhaps, you think I am searching for god and just don't want to be honest with myself?

I think we all seek an ideal in ourselves and others and some call that ideal God.

I call it seeking the best rules to live by, --- be they religious or secular rules and laws.

This poet starts out well but then he himself falls into idol worship.

He describes God fairly well though.

Regards
DL

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?

What's with the false dichotomy?

Why does anyone need to seek God? Is he hiding? If so, why?

If God actually exists, and wants me to worship him/her/it, then God knows where to find me. I can't guarantee that I will worship God, even if God does appear in front of me, but God is welcome to ask.

I do not think we need to seek God. Most of us seem to if you check the stats. Mind you, I think that within that "most" in religion do not really follow their religion but just follow custom and the traditions of their tribe. It has nothing to do with God when you look close.

Regards
DL

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps.

This idol worshiper will not agree.

What do you name supreme?

Regards
DL

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
What's with the false dichotomy?
Good question. An idol is just something to remind us of the gods, a place for them to hang out when they're among us. People using idols to find their gods are not distinct from people who seek gods.

Eh. No.

Seekers will accept better laws as they have no God corrupting their judgements.

Idol worshipers cannot.

Have a look at how that works.

Regards
DL

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
If there actually exists anything resembling a "god", then the place to look for it is in the Universe itself. The best way to know the creator is by studying the creation. And our best way to do that is through science, using the sense, reason, and intellect that this god putatively endowed us with.

No argument.

I think they are looking hard and one may have found the cosmic or universal consciousness I think I found. This clip shown more or less what I believe. No conclusive proof yet though.

http://vimeo.com/26318064

Regards
DL

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
If you have found your God, please supply a name. Show me yours and I will show you mine.

You theists always say that, but you're just little teases. They always say they can show it, but they never do.

Indeed. Show might have been the wrong word but is logically sound if I just think of the name being shown.

I do not mind Christian theists not being able to show us their genocidal son murderer of a God. We already have enough pictures of Satan around.

Regards
DL

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
I use hard evidence in my search for gods and nothing less.

Jesus said he'd rid the world of sin and there's still sin, so that story's clearly a fake.

Odin said he'd rid the world of Frost Giants and I've never seen a Frost Giant, so that's validation for his existence. If anyone's going to dispute that, they're going to need to show me some proof of what it is that they're claiming happened to all the Frost Giants.

Lets see if you can evaluate evidence properly. Just a mental exercise.

What do you think of this quote and is it true or false to you.

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

Created here is created by nature. No God involved so just look at it from a scientific POV.

Regards
DL

#### Gnostic Christian Bishop

##### Banned
Banned
The thing about it is, every time someone appears with a new theology, there was already at least one person who's already done the same thing for each denomination out there.

Wait, I have a great cartoon for this somewhere...

Here it is.

Karen Armstrong tells us that the ancients thought that all generations would improve on the understanding of previous generations. We are to get our own meaning from scriptures. It is a valid point.

That has happened in all other things so I wonder why you would resent it happening with religions?

They have civilized themselves little enough. Do not deny the bit of progress that they have done even as they still have a long way to go.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Regards
DL

#### braces_for_impact

##### Veteran Member
The thing about it is, every time someone appears with a new theology, there was already at least one person who's already done the same thing for each denomination out there.

Wait, I have a great cartoon for this somewhere...

Here it is.

Karen Armstrong tells us that the ancients thought that all generations would improve on the understanding of previous generations. We are to get our own meaning from scriptures. It is a valid point.

That has happened in all other things so I wonder why you would resent it happening with religions?

They have civilized themselves little enough. Do not deny the bit of progress that they have done even as they still have a long way to go.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Regards
DL

I resent it because religion has instituted itself as the interpreter of morality and ethics that come from God as it's source. As we all know, this is incredibly dangerous and provides an easy pathway to abuse. Most religions claim that their morality and ethics come from their god - an outside source that cannot be accessed to provide real world checks for veracity. God's will and God's plan are ambiguous, and the goal far too often is in conflict with real world problems, because the goals of changing the behaviors of their flock is to ensure their entrance into the afterlife, not necessarily to reduce suffering and encourage happiness in this life. Reaching heaven is paramount to most that truly believe in their religion. This provides a dangerously easy way to get to a state where "the ends justify the means".

Because the goals of a religions ethics and morality aren't necessarily bound to the real world and it's problems, it often comes into conflict with actions and behaviors that could provide a mechanism for change to lessen the world's suffering. It bypasses empathy, creates scapegoats and does not correctly assign responsibility where it belongs.

The ethics and morality espoused by religion is too slow to adapt to the changing circumstances in society. It slows down moral and technological progress, all the while claiming that it's system of morality is superior to all others. They claim their system will provide the greatest amount of happiness if their tenets are followed. Because of the deference our society gives to religion, this is all too often taken at face value, and never challenged. When it is finally challenged, which is taboo, the only rationalization needed by the religion for their position is that they do what they do because that is God's will and provides a path to heaven. It's an answer for every challenge, it's not falsifiable, and therefore useless. Yet society takes it as (if you'll excuse the pun) gospel.

So we have a system that is merely an echo chamber for every possible negative human flaw that has no real world checks and balances. Prejudice, fear, anger, suspicion, hate, ignorance, misogyny - all are justified because God of course always happens to agree with his followers. Look at what the Catholic church has become, look at Islam in the Middle East, look at the protestants here in the U.S. They are all bent on acquiring power, wealth, and dominating their fellow humans; the very humans that often actually have a superior morality to the unconscionable men they blindly follow, and follow them they do because they sincerely want to be good people, yet they empower some of the greatest barriers to actual moral progress ever known to exist on planet earth.

This link of religion to morality MUST be broken, or we shall surely have hell on earth while everyone is trying very hard to reach a fictional heaven. Since the reality is that this life is all we get, our only shot, this is especially tragic.

#### OLDMAN

##### Senior Member
Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?

There are so many Gods and Goddesses in forums today that these places begin to look as in the days of Babel. Two camps do seem to be forming though. Those who seek on the left and and those who have found on the right.

Which camp are you in?

If you seek God, where are you looking?

If you have found your God, please supply a name. Show me yours and I will show you mine.

Regards
DL

P.S. Gnosis is knowledge that leads to wisdom. Wisdom is Sophia in our myths. She has faith in you finding her. Thank God Eve ate and Adam had the good sense to do as told and eat as well.

We tend to seek and find what satisfies us, why would knowledge, wisdom, or the truth be any different.

#### ideologyhunter

##### Veteran Member
I'm a devout atheist now -- have to go back to '72 to remember a time when I 'sought' God...what a weird concept!! I was on the staff of a Presbyterian-funded camp that was nominally a church camp but in practice more on the humanist side (with very little analysis of belief.) The Christians I knew seemed very happy with what they believed. I assumed that the BIG MOMENT of belief would be an overwhelming emotional experience. I now suspect that almost all my Christian friends from staff were going along with their families' practices and beliefs, that there had been no blissful catharsis. There were a few whack-job exceptions.
I had a ritual for conversion. It was ineffectual, because I never converted to belief in a god for one second. It consisted in putting on side 4 of the Jesus Christ Superstar soundtrack album, putting on the headphones, and turning off the living room lights. Then I would listen to the record, which I found very moving (haven't heard it in 40 years, it's probably pretty dire), and hoping that somehow God or his kid would manifest for me in some way or other. They never did. I'd listen to the vocals -- loved that Yvonne Elliman -- but then the record would end and I'd still be sitting there realizing that the Bible was full of bizarre and primitive statements that didn't seem to bother my Christian friends at all. If this sounds cheesy, it was. It was absolutely a bid for an ersatz emotion that wasn't supported by experience.
Fuck religion. Atheism is hands down the best explanation for why we have thousands of discarded deities and religions, all those 'smutty little orthodoxies', in Orwell's classic phrase. They all derive from the human imagination.

#### Tom Sawyer

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I use hard evidence in my search for gods and nothing less.

Jesus said he'd rid the world of sin and there's still sin, so that story's clearly a fake.

Odin said he'd rid the world of Frost Giants and I've never seen a Frost Giant, so that's validation for his existence. If anyone's going to dispute that, they're going to need to show me some proof of what it is that they're claiming happened to all the Frost Giants.

Lets see if you can evaluate evidence properly. Just a mental exercise.

What do you think of this quote and is it true or false to you.

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

Created here is created by nature. No God involved so just look at it from a scientific POV.

Regards
DL

That's blatantly false in every aspect of it. Things constantly become otherwise than what they are. They weren't created for some end, but just happened and ended up being a slight evolutionary advantage over what they were in the previous generation, which is nothing even remotely close to being the best end.

Also, it doesn't explain where it is that you think all the Frost Giants are if it wasn't Odin who got rid of them.

#### Brian63

##### Veteran Member
...

I resent it because religion has instituted itself as the interpreter of morality and ethics that come from God as it's source. As we all know, this is incredibly dangerous and provides an easy pathway to abuse. Most religions claim that their morality and ethics come from their god - an outside source that cannot be accessed to provide real world checks for veracity. God's will and God's plan are ambiguous, and the goal far too often is in conflict with real world problems, because the goals of changing the behaviors of their flock is to ensure their entrance into the afterlife, not necessarily to reduce suffering and encourage happiness in this life. Reaching heaven is paramount to most that truly believe in their religion. This provides a dangerously easy way to get to a state where "the ends justify the means".

Because the goals of a religions ethics and morality aren't necessarily bound to the real world and it's problems, it often comes into conflict with actions and behaviors that could provide a mechanism for change to lessen the world's suffering. It bypasses empathy, creates scapegoats and does not correctly assign responsibility where it belongs.

The ethics and morality espoused by religion is too slow to adapt to the changing circumstances in society. It slows down moral and technological progress, all the while claiming that it's system of morality is superior to all others. They claim their system will provide the greatest amount of happiness if their tenets are followed. Because of the deference our society gives to religion, this is all too often taken at face value, and never challenged. When it is finally challenged, which is taboo, the only rationalization needed by the religion for their position is that they do what they do because that is God's will and provides a path to heaven. It's an answer for every challenge, it's not falsifiable, and therefore useless. Yet society takes it as (if you'll excuse the pun) gospel.

So we have a system that is merely an echo chamber for every possible negative human flaw that has no real world checks and balances. Prejudice, fear, anger, suspicion, hate, ignorance, misogyny - all are justified because God of course always happens to agree with his followers. Look at what the Catholic church has become, look at Islam in the Middle East, look at the protestants here in the U.S. They are all bent on acquiring power, wealth, and dominating their fellow humans; the very humans that often actually have a superior morality to the unconscionable men they blindly follow, and follow them they do because they sincerely want to be good people, yet they empower some of the greatest barriers to actual moral progress ever known to exist on planet earth.

This link of religion to morality MUST be broken, or we shall surely have hell on earth while everyone is trying very hard to reach a fictional heaven. Since the reality is that this life is all we get, our only shot, this is especially tragic.

Very nicely said!

Brian

#### KeepTalking

##### Code Monkey
What's with the false dichotomy?

Why does anyone need to seek God? Is he hiding? If so, why?

If God actually exists, and wants me to worship him/her/it, then God knows where to find me. I can't guarantee that I will worship God, even if God does appear in front of me, but God is welcome to ask.

I do not think we need to seek God. Most of us seem to if you check the stats.

I would like to check those stats, can you post them please?

Mind you, I think that within that "most" in religion do not really follow their religion but just follow custom and the traditions of their tribe.

How is following a religion seeking God? Seems to me that falls more in the category of thinking you have already found God.

It has nothing to do with God when you look close.

Sorry, but I am not going to follow your youtube link, it could be something horrible like a Rick Roll for all I know. Present your own arguments here in this thread, or I will assume you have nothing relevant to contribute.

Finally, you haven't really addressed my question as to why I should need to seek God. I did not mean 'need' in the sense you have seem to taken it, and I thought that was obvious. The question was more along the lines of why God feels the need to hide from anyone, if God really wants to be worshiped by everyone.

#### Underseer

##### Contributor
Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?

There are so many Gods and Goddesses in forums today that these places begin to look as in the days of Babel. Two camps do seem to be forming though. Those who seek on the left and and those who have found on the right.

Which camp are you in?

If you seek God, where are you looking?

If you have found your God, please supply a name. Show me yours and I will show you mine.

Regards
DL

P.S. Gnosis is knowledge that leads to wisdom. Wisdom is Sophia in our myths. She has faith in you finding her. Thank God Eve ate and Adam had the good sense to do as told and eat as well.

I do not seek god at all.

I also do not seek leprechauns, faeries, genies, will-o-wisps, or bigfoot.

If and when someone provides evidence that any of these fanciful things are real, I will make a real effort to learn all I can about them/it/he/she. Until such time they are nothing more than outlandish and not worth my time.

#### The Paul

##### Member
The thing about it is, every time someone appears with a new theology, there was already at least one person who's already done the same thing for each denomination out there.

Wait, I have a great cartoon for this somewhere...

Here it is.

Karen Armstrong tells us that the ancients thought that all generations would improve on the understanding of previous generations. We are to get our own meaning from scriptures. It is a valid point.

Yes, well. If we started off with nothing more than a bunch of filthy almost-humans hiding in caves and howling at the sun and had to work our way up from there, as a traditional materialist view would have use believe, that makes perfect sense.

If at some point some deity handed out some objectively perfect instructions, though, we shouldn't need to modify and improve them.

Plus that raises the question of why said deity suddenly shut up.

#### Cheerful Charlie

##### Contributor
Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?

There are so many Gods and Goddesses in forums today that these places begin to look as in the days of Babel. Two camps do seem to be forming though. Those who seek on the left and and those who have found on the right.

Which camp are you in?

If you seek God, where are you looking?

If you have found your God, please supply a name. Show me yours and I will show you mine.

Regards
DL

P.S. Gnosis is knowledge that leads to wisdom. Wisdom is Sophia in our myths. She has faith in you finding her. Thank God Eve ate and Adam had the good sense to do as told and eat as well.

There are no Gods. The concept of gods self destructs readily in self contradiction. And naturalism always pops up unscathed. Sorry.

##### New member
Where and how do you seek God? Or are you an idol worshiper?
There are so many Gods and Goddesses in forums today that these places begin to look as in the days of Babel. Two camps do seem to be forming though. Those who seek on the left and and those who have found on the right.
Which camp are you in?
If you seek God, where are you looking?
If you have found your God, please supply a name. Show me yours and I will show you mine.
Regards
DL
P.S. Gnosis is knowledge that leads to wisdom. Wisdom is Sophia in our myths. She has faith in you finding her. Thank God Eve ate and Adam had the good sense to do as told and eat as well.
Why would anyone seek something thats totaly IMAGINARY?

www.godchecker.com

Yes yours too
www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm

I was born atheist and done quite well thnx to my own hard working hands..

gods belong to the past primitive Dark ages,when will you grow up?