Where did the idea of eternal life in Heaven come from?

[DrZoidberg]

Where did the Christian idea of a soul and it's eternal life in Heaven come from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Christianity

It's not from Judaism. Since the soul goes to an end point and stays there is not a Hindu/Eastern idea.

So what do you guys think?

Could it be from Egyptian religion? I know that in Old Kingdom only the Pharao could enter into the realm of the gods. Over time this was democratized so that nobles could make it (Middle Kingdom) and then everybody (New Kingdom). Around the time of Jesus the ancient Egyptian idea of the afterlife sounds suspiciously similar to what became Christianity. Is that the source? I know that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_conception_of_the_soul

I know that the cult of Isis was huge in the Roman empire, peaking a bit before Jesus came around. The cult of Isis is pretty much identical to Christianity, except that it was exclusive and not open to any convert. But otherwise exactly the same. But in spite of it's name, the cult of Isis has more in common with Greek religion than Egyptian. And Greeks did not believe in an afterlife like heaven, nor the soul.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysteries_of_Isis

But it is interesting that early Christianity's conception of the afterlife is that your physical body will be resurected and will walk the Earth again. That too sounds quite Egyptian. It's not a neat fit though?

But then again, it could also have been from Zoroastrianism. Where angels and Satan came from. So we know there was a heavy influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

What do you guys think? Am I completely off here? Do we know where it came from, and it was somewhere completely different?

 

[southernhybrid]

I agree that Zoroastrianism most likely had a heavy influence on Christianity, and it may be where the concept of eternal life/heaven originated. I don't know that much about the religion, but I did a little reading a couple of weeks ago about it, and almost responded to the thread about the roots of Christianity, as it's very possible that some of the roots came from Zoroastrianism. Then again, so many of these ancient religions have so many similarities, it's not easy to know exactly how much each religion influenced the ones that came after it.

To me, it's obvious that mythology's influence on humanity has a very long history.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I agree that Zoroastrianism most likely had a heavy influence on Christianity, and it may be where the concept of eternal life/heaven originated. I don't know that much about the religion, but I did a little reading a couple of weeks ago about it, and almost responded to the thread about the roots of Christianity, as it's very possible that some of the roots came from Zoroastrianism. Then again, so many of these ancient religions have so many similarities, it's not easy to know exactly how much each religion influenced the ones that came after it.

To me, it's obvious that mythology's influence on humanity has a very long history.

The it's-all-a-big-soup answer?

 

[Politesse]

We don't actually know all that much about ancient Hebrew afterlife beliefs; it may have just been native belief, picked up from the cosmology of many of their neighbors. I note that in the ancient world, things like the nature of the afterlife or the physical construction of the universe weren't usually considered issues of competing philosophy so much as just knowledge about the world, the same way you know that Mongolia exists. Given that many significant cultural powers in the ancient near east were believers in an eternal soul - Assyria, Babylon, Phoenecia, Egypt - I wouldn't be surprised if many Hebrews did as well, whether or not their priests liked that or even had any opinion on the matter.

There's some evidence that the absence of direct conversation about death in the HS may even be deliberate, given the elaborate rituals described to protect people from the "uncleanliness" of coming into physical contact with the recently deceased in the Levitical texts.

 

[rousseau]

We don't actually know all that much about ancient Hebrew afterlife beliefs; it may have just been native belief, picked up from the cosmology of many of their neighbors. I note that in the ancient world, things like the nature of the afterlife or the physical construction of the universe weren't usually considered issues of competing philosophy so much as just knowledge about the world, the same way you know that Mongolia exists. Given that many significant cultural powers in the ancient near east were believers in an eternal soul - Assyria, Babylon, Phoenecia, Egypt - I wouldn't be surprised if many Hebrews did as well, whether or not their priests liked that or even had any opinion on the matter.

There's some evidence that the absence of direct conversation about death in the HS may even be deliberate, given the elaborate rituals described to protect people from the "uncleanliness" of coming into physical contact with the recently deceased in the Levitical texts.

I was waiting for you to chime in. The only other generalization I could add is: from the fact that we're mortal

You could call belief in the afterlife an expression of dissonance over death (which is experienced by everyone). To me the more curious part about afterlife belief isn't it's origin, but instead how ubiquitous and unquestioned it was for millennia.

 

[southernhybrid]

I agree that Zoroastrianism most likely had a heavy influence on Christianity, and it may be where the concept of eternal life/heaven originated. I don't know that much about the religion, but I did a little reading a couple of weeks ago about it, and almost responded to the thread about the roots of Christianity, as it's very possible that some of the roots came from Zoroastrianism. Then again, so many of these ancient religions have so many similarities, it's not easy to know exactly how much each religion influenced the ones that came after it.

To me, it's obvious that mythology's influence on humanity has a very long history.

The it's-all-a-big-soup answer?

I guess you could say that. I'm thinking of the Baha'i Faith, a fairly recent world religion compared to most. The afterlife in the Baha'i holy books is very vague. There is no clear cut heaven and hell, from what I remember when I learned about that religion during my 9 year marriage to one of it's followers. One does get the impression that Baha'is believe there is an afterlife, but it doesn't necessarily involve punishments or rewards, as it does in the earlier Abrahamic religions. The Hebrew religion, like the Christian religion, seems to have many different views on an afterlife. It doesn't matter if the original text isn't clear. Followers of all world religions have a tendency to break down into various sects with different viewpoints, don't they?

One could say that the Baha'i Faith is just a kinder, gender version of the Muslim religion, but Baha'is don't see it that way at all. They see their religion as a progressive religion. They believe that humanity and religion evolve over time. That sounds like a fairy tale to me, of course, but that is what they believe.

My opinion is that these concepts were invented due to human's inability to accept that we are mortal. Plus, if one's life is full of hardship and misery, l guess it helps you cope if you are able to believe you will be rewarded in some type of heavenly afterlife. The word afterlife is an oxymoron, isn't it?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Plato. His Timaeus and The Laws - Book 10 were pretty influential on early Christian theology.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We don't actually know all that much about ancient Hebrew afterlife beliefs; it may have just been native belief, picked up from the cosmology of many of their neighbors. I note that in the ancient world, things like the nature of the afterlife or the physical construction of the universe weren't usually considered issues of competing philosophy so much as just knowledge about the world, the same way you know that Mongolia exists. Given that many significant cultural powers in the ancient near east were believers in an eternal soul - Assyria, Babylon, Phoenecia, Egypt - I wouldn't be surprised if many Hebrews did as well, whether or not their priests liked that or even had any opinion on the matter.

There's some evidence that the absence of direct conversation about death in the HS may even be deliberate, given the elaborate rituals described to protect people from the "uncleanliness" of coming into physical contact with the recently deceased in the Levitical texts.

You mean except for the little detail that the Jews wrote it down. There's no ancient people we know more about when it comes to their beliefs.

I think you are making the mistake of interpretating the lack of info as them not writing it down. But the Torah is exhaustingly comprehensive. I think you are wrong. We know they had a pretty bog standard pagan belief of life after death

 

[DBT]

Dreams, inner visions, out of body experiences, etc, may have given the impression of trancendency, a foundation for a belief in life beyond the physical realm.

 

[Politesse]

We don't actually know all that much about ancient Hebrew afterlife beliefs; it may have just been native belief, picked up from the cosmology of many of their neighbors. I note that in the ancient world, things like the nature of the afterlife or the physical construction of the universe weren't usually considered issues of competing philosophy so much as just knowledge about the world, the same way you know that Mongolia exists. Given that many significant cultural powers in the ancient near east were believers in an eternal soul - Assyria, Babylon, Phoenecia, Egypt - I wouldn't be surprised if many Hebrews did as well, whether or not their priests liked that or even had any opinion on the matter.

There's some evidence that the absence of direct conversation about death in the HS may even be deliberate, given the elaborate rituals described to protect people from the "uncleanliness" of coming into physical contact with the recently deceased in the Levitical texts.

You mean except for the little detail that the Jews wrote it down. There's no ancient people we know more about when it comes to their beliefs.

I think you are making the mistake of interpretating the lack of info as them not writing it down. But the Torah is exhaustingly comprehensive. I think you are wrong. We know they had a pretty bog standard pagan belief of life after death

I have spent a lot of time studying the Hebrew Scriptures, and I am baffled by your statement here. No, the Hebrew Scriptures really do not touch on death and the afterlife much at all. There are shadowy references to an underworld called Sheol in about a dozen places, more evocative than descriptive, the story of Elijah evading death, and some Messianic promises of a seeming resurrection in the later, post Greco-Roman books like Daniel. That's it, very little to go on. This is reflected in the fact that conversations about the afterlife are rare and inconlcusive in contemporary Jewish circles. I also have no idea what you could possibly mean by "bog standard Pagan beliefs", as there was no such uniformity of belief in the ancient world, whether in or out of Judea.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Where did the Christian idea of a soul and it's eternal life in Heaven come from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Christianity

It's not from Judaism. Since the soul goes to an end point and stays there is not a Hindu/Eastern idea.

So what do you guys think?

Could it be from Egyptian religion? I know that in Old Kingdom only the Pharao could enter into the realm of the gods. Over time this was democratized so that nobles could make it (Middle Kingdom) and then everybody (New Kingdom). Around the time of Jesus the ancient Egyptian idea of the afterlife sounds suspiciously similar to what became Christianity. Is that the source? I know that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_conception_of_the_soul

I know that the cult of Isis was huge in the Roman empire, peaking a bit before Jesus came around. The cult of Isis is pretty much identical to Christianity, except that it was exclusive and not open to any convert. But otherwise exactly the same. But in spite of it's name, the cult of Isis has more in common with Greek religion than Egyptian. And Greeks did not believe in an afterlife like heaven, nor the soul.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysteries_of_Isis

But it is interesting that early Christianity's conception of the afterlife is that your physical body will be resurrected and will walk the Earth again. That too sounds quite Egyptian. It's not a neat fit though?

But then again, it could also have been from Zoroastrianism. Where angels and Satan came from. So we know there was a heavy influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

What do you guys think? Am I completely off here? Do we know where it came from, and it was somewhere completely different?

People did not begin wanting eternal life because it was taught to them by religion. Rather, religion began teaching about eternal life after people already were wishing for it, and the earliest religious response was to rebuke people for wanting eternal life.

The earliest religious literature which philosophizes and expounds on eternal life is the Epic of Gilgamesh, which teaches that it's not possible and that it's wrong to desire it because humans aren't supposed to live forever.

Overall the religious teachings about eternal life have been much more pessimistic than optimistic.

No religion borrowed the eternal life idea from an earlier religion, but rather each religious culture responded to people wishing for eternal life. The earliest response to this human craving was negative, either saying it's totally impossible (Gilgamesh) or greatly restricted to a tiny tiny elite (Egyptians). But later Egyptian religion began making some allowance for eternal life (to a select few other than only the pharaoh), imposing some narrow standards based on merit and obedience to strict laws.

But with Christianity there began a change toward more optimism about the possibility of eternal life. Though in Christianity also the teaching mostly is that "Heaven" is for a tiny minority of the truly faithful, while even most professing Christians fall short, or are apostates and hypocrites, and will be cast into hell fire, or into utter darkness as taught in most earlier traditions.

What caused Christianity to suddenly adopt a more optimistic promise of eternal life is the belief that Christ rose from the dead and offered eternal life free to believers. Except for this, there would probably have been no new optimism about eternal life, and the earlier negativity and pessimism would have continued.

Outside of 3 or 4 stories of a hero resuscitating a victim back to life, there are no resurrection stories in the earlier pagan and Jewish literature and pre-Christian culture, including Dead Sea Scrolls, and virtually no afterlife promises of any kind. (Though the term "eternal life" does appear once in the Book of Enoch.)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Dreams, inner visions, out of body experiences, etc, may have given the impression of trancendency, a foundation for a belief in life beyond the physical realm.

And this is precisely the genesis of such fanciful notions as afterlives. Sure, it looks like the Egyptians hold the historical patent but such a claim isn't going to interfere with getting on with life. It's a bit of a luxury expenditure but affordable given circumstances.

 

[Jarhyn]

Some moments, I wonder if it is not a misinterpretation whose misinterpretation sounded just mystical enough to hold onto.

We live forever in the stories people tell of us, and those who lived awful lives will live forever in the stories as villains and people destined to lose and be considered losers.

That could easily evolve over the course of a few charlatan perversions into "there is a place you live forever after you die, now do what I want or you won't go there."

It may have even gotten there through the honest but still awful "do what I want or the tribes stories of you will be bad or not told at all, and you will be gone forever."

Or it could have started out perverse, along those lines. I expect in the beginning of stories, it was all of the above depending on which gang of bald apes you happened to roll with.

But the basic idea of "do what we want or else your name dies with you" is emergent, and an effective threat, a d easily perverted so if we are placing bets that's where my chips would go, and I expect I'd be collecting on them.

 

[Tigers!]

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Daniel accepted some form of eternal life and going to some place beyond the grave. This predated Christianity, ignore the quibble over the date of Daniel of this passage.

2 Samuel 12:22-23 "He (David) answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

David was confident that one day he would be re-united with his son. This would occur after the death of David.

Whilst the concept of heaven and eternal life in the OT was by no means as developed or comprehensive as the NT, the Jews obviously had an acceptance of a life and destination beyond the grave

 

[DrZoidberg]

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Daniel accepted some form of eternal life and going to some place beyond the grave. This predated Christianity, ignore the quibble over the date of Daniel of this passage.

2 Samuel 12:22-23 "He (David) answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

David was confident that one day he would be re-united with his son. This would occur after the death of David.

Whilst the concept of heaven and eternal life in the OT was by no means as developed or comprehensive as the NT, the Jews obviously had an acceptance of a life and destination beyond the grave

How isn't this just standard pagan belief? Sheol or hell.

Not to nit pic but the fact that you can find stuff in the Old Testament that might support modern interpretations doesn't prove much. These are translations. And as such words with vague meanings are picked depending on what the translator interprets it's about.

The world is full of Biblical scholars who can read the original languages and who have spent their lives studying this. I'm not aware of any academic Biblical scholar who subscribes to the belief that pre-pharisaic Judaism believed in Heaven. I don't have my own theory on this. I'm just repeating what scholarly works I've read on it.

My impressions is that Christians in general, are great at taking Biblical passages out of context and inserting all manner of unfounded meaning onto it.

I remember going to church with my girlfriend and afterwards my girlfriend (Christian) asked about the meaning of a sermon. She is Danish and the sermon was in Swedish. But the priest thought she meant exegetical support. So we listened to an awesome improvised 20 minute lecture on the passage where he explained all the possible various interpretations and that his was just one of them and also, likely, not the Biblically accurate. But conforming to the state protestant church of Sweden's teaching. Pretty cool. My point with bringing this up is that, these kinds of discussions, need more than just quoting Biblical passages.

 

[Politesse]

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

I don't see why one would simply "ignore the quibble over the date of Daniel" when discussing the historical trajectory of an idea. The fact that Daniel is one of the latest written books in the Hebrew Scriptures, acknowledged to have been written after conquest by the Greeks (whose views on the afterlife are well known), is extremely relevant.

2 Samuel 12:22-23 "He (David) answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

It doesn't sound like that in the slightest. How did you reach that conclusion from a passage in which David is clearly grieving that he will never see his son again?

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Where did early Christianity get its "eternal life in Heaven" idea?

The following facts seem to not be disputed:

Ideas and longing for Eternal Life existed at least back to 2,000 BC, long before the 1st century AD.

There is no noticeable increase in these ideas during those 2,000 years. By 200 or 100 BC there was no increased interest in it beyond what there was in 2000-1500 BC. It was very rare, if there at all, in the Jewish beliefs. And the interest among Egyptians and Greeks and Romans did not increase toward the 1st century AD.

But then suddenly about 50 AD - 100 AD there is an explosion of interest in this and a sudden claim that one could gain eternal life by just believing in this one character who pops up in 30 AD. There's nothing just prior in any of the literature to explain where this came from.

And there is the claim, in at least 5 1st-century documents, unexplained in anything earlier, that this one was killed and then rose back to life a few days later, seen by many witnesses.

So, why is there a sudden belief in eternal life in heaven, dating from this point in time, with nothing earlier to explain it?

The best explanation is that the reports about this 1st-century resurrected one caused many to start believing this, or giving them hope for this possibility, when before there had been nothing to give them any such hope. And no one can explain why there was such a claim of a resurrected one only at this time and place and not at any other time or place over thousands of years of legend throughout many lands and cultures with their various superstitions and mythologies and religious traditions.

So maybe it's possible that something unusual really did happen here, in Galilee-Judea, in about 30 AD, which uniquely caused this new "Gospel" (euangelion) good news to sprout up and spread as a new eternal life hope such as did not exist before.

Y'think?

But sshhhhhhh, we're not supposed to say this, because it offends some people.

 

[Elixir]

Dreams, inner visions, out of body experiences, etc, may have given the impression of trancendency, a foundation for a belief in life beyond the physical realm.

And this is precisely the genesis of such fanciful notions as afterlives. Sure, it looks like the Egyptians hold the historical patent but such a claim isn't going to interfere with getting on with life. It's a bit of a luxury expenditure but affordable given circumstances.

Meh. If there’s an historical patent (love that turn of phrase) it is probably held by the first human who realized he/she was going to die simply based on the observation that everyone dies.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The following facts seem to not be disputed:

Ideas and longing for Eternal Life existed at least back to 2,000 BC, long before the 1st century AD.

There is no noticeable increase in these ideas during those 2,000 years. By 200 or 100 BC there was no increased interest in it beyond what there was in 2000-1500 BC. It was very rare, if there at all, in the Jewish beliefs. And the interest among Egyptians and Greeks and Romans did not increase toward the 1st century AD.

But then suddenly about 50 AD - 100 AD there is an explosion of interest in this and a sudden claim that one could gain eternal life by just believing in this one character who pops up in 30 AD. There's nothing just prior in any of the literature to explain where this came from.

And there is the claim, in at least 5 1st-century documents, unexplained in anything earlier, that this one was killed and then rose back to life a few days later, seen by many witnesses.

So, why is there a sudden belief in eternal life in heaven, dating from this point in time, with nothing earlier to explain it?

The best explanation is that the reports about this 1st-century resurrected one caused many to start believing this, or giving them hope for this possibility, when before there had been nothing to give them any such hope. And no one can explain why there was such a claim of a resurrected one only at this time and place and not at any other time or place over thousands of years of legend throughout many lands and cultures with their various superstitions and mythologies and religious traditions.

So maybe it's possible that something unusual really did happen here, in Galilee-Judea, in about 30 AD, which uniquely caused this new "Gospel" (euangelion) good news to sprout up and spread as a new eternal life hope such as did not exist before.

Y'think?

But sshhhhhhh, we're not supposed to say this, because it offends some people.

It's not that it offends people. It's dumb. Jesus dying and resurrected is a standard pagan story on the Middle East. It's pretty obvious to anybody accustomed to ancient litterature that everything supernatutal attributed to Jesus is traditional pagan stories to prove that Jesus was the son of a god. In paganism anybody who did anything extraordinary is explained by them being partly by divine parentage.

The story of Jesus is bog standard on the pagan tradition.

If all of these tens of thousands similar Jesus figures didn't make a shift in our beliefs then its silly to think Jesus would do it based on that alone.

Theologically the cult of Isis is pretty much a carbon copy of Christianity and predates it by 300 years. Was extremely popular at the time of Jesus life. Not only that, but the story of Jesus has similarities with the story of Osiris. A prominent figure in the Cult of Isis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysteries_of_Isis

Not only do I not think that. I think it's silly and lazy Christian exceptionalism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Dreams, inner visions, out of body experiences, etc, may have given the impression of trancendency, a foundation for a belief in life beyond the physical realm.

And this is precisely the genesis of such fanciful notions as afterlives. Sure, it looks like the Egyptians hold the historical patent but such a claim isn't going to interfere with getting on with life. It's a bit of a luxury expenditure but affordable given circumstances.

I think that's after the fact reconstruction. Because we live in a Christian society where an afterlife is the accepted default position we think it's natural and obvious. But there's no theological support for that it's been a common belief going back much further than Christianity