White mass killer just had a bad day

[Jimmy Higgins]

From the outset, when the word religion came up, it seemed like a possible self-hate crime... that ends up ruining other people's lives.

 

[Toni]

For that matter, how many black mass killers are there? Do we think that in Georgia (or anywhere) a black man could have purchased firearms and ammunition same day as d try I I g from business to business to kill eight people?

I agree with your first statement, but I assure you that anyone, regardless of race or ethnicity can easily purchase a gun in Georgia. I've attended many gun shows in the distant past, as I'm married to a gun toting liberal. ( actually, he gave up his carry permit several years ago, thank dog ) There are always plenty of Black gun owners at these shows. If the gun is bought from a dealer, a background check is required but there is no waiting period. Long purchased his gun from a dealer. There was a background check. He had no history of any criminal behavior prior to this so he passed the background check. Our gun laws are insane.

I was going to start a thread in the religious section in regards to Long. He is a brainwashed religious fanatic and imo, what he did was more likely due to religion and sexism. While racism may have played a part, since Asian women are often hyper sexualized by many men, I'm not convinced that this was his primary motivation. He frequented the same massage parlors where he committed these crimes. Let me see if I can find some of the numerous articles that I read about this crime and this person to support my claims. In his mind, these women were the temptresses and if he killed them, the temptation would be gone. Another factor might be that his religious nut parents threw him out of the house the day before he went on this killing spree. Sure, he was disturbed, but from all that I've read, religion had a lot to do with his mental status.

There have been a huge number of attacks on Asian Americans, primarily females, ever since Trump started calling COVID, the China flu or Kungflu. So, it's good that more attention has been brought to this disgusting racism against Asian Americans, even if that wasn't what motivated this killer.

I think that what he did was the result of mental illness exacerbated by a profound lack of understanding of human sexuality, including and especially his own, also exacerbated by some seriously fucked up teachings in church, in his family, likely reinforced with a lot of shame and probably significant corporal punishment to reinforce the lessons. Was there sexism mixed in? Probably and probably some racism in the form of believing stereotypes about Asians operating salons. As far as I can tell, the salons offered therapeutic massages rather than sexual services. Of course the nasty stereotype has been repeated throughout the media..for what purpose? Salacious? Laziness? Deliberate attempt to smear Asians? I cannot tell. But it certainly goes hand in hand with the attacks on Asians. I just think that Long's particular heinous acts were probably not the result of that sort of racism but more along the lines of evil temptress kinds of stereotypes. But I could easily be very wrong. Likely we will never know. A lot of boys and young men have very mixed up ideas about sex.

 

[blastula]

Try again.

Back in 2016, the New York Times reviewed all 358 mass shootings (4 or more casualties) in 2015. Blacks, at 13% of the population, accounted for over 70% of the suspected mass shooters:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/us/americas-overlooked-gun-violence.html

That is better try since it is on topic, but as has been said it depends on the definition.

Mass shootings by shooter’s race in the U.S. 2021 | Statista



Using a different one shows the incidents are about proportionate to race. The criteria used here is described below which does better capture what is thought of by mass killing.

Here is a description of the criteria we use:

• The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
• The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
• The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.) Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).
• Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
• We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Try again.

Back in 2016, the New York Times reviewed all 358 mass shootings (4 or more casualties) in 2015. Blacks, at 13% of the population, accounted for over 70% of the suspected mass shooters:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/us/americas-overlooked-gun-violence.html

Would someone please give citation for what constitutes a mass shooting?

Yeah, this is the problem with Trausti's data.

When people hear "mass shooting" they are picturing things like Atlanta--nutter or nutters starts blazing away at those in an area.

However, when you count it by things like 4 injured you get mostly gang fights, not what people normally think of as a mass shooting. I think the best source is Mother Jones: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map/ (there's also a data table linked from it.) I didn't do exact math but blacks do not seem to be over represented in that list.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And the police release a statement on the spokesperson's statement. Apparently, he indeed also had a bad day in trying to say how bad a tragedy this was. He didn't mean to sound insensitive... he just did.

Talk about white privilege.

Actually, I had another thought about the "had a bad day" bit--it seems reasonable if what was meant to be conveyed is that it wasn't planned, just a person stressed out until they snapped. Most mass shootings are planned well in advance, this would be a notable characteristic.

 

[repoman]

For that matter, how many black mass killers are there? Do we think that in Georgia (or anywhere) a black man could have purchased firearms and ammunition same day as d try I I g from business to business to kill eight people?

I agree with your first statement, but I assure you that anyone, regardless of race or ethnicity can easily purchase a gun in Georgia. I've attended many gun shows in the distant past, as I'm married to a gun toting liberal. ( actually, he gave up his carry permit several years ago, thank dog ) There are always plenty of Black gun owners at these shows. If the gun is bought from a dealer, a background check is required but there is no waiting period. Long purchased his gun from a dealer. There was a background check. He had no history of any criminal behavior prior to this so he passed the background check. Our gun laws are insane.

I was going to start a thread in the religious section in regards to Long. He is a brainwashed religious fanatic and imo, what he did was more likely due to religion and sexism. While racism may have played a part, since Asian women are often hyper sexualized by many men, I'm not convinced that this was his primary motivation. He frequented the same massage parlors where he committed these crimes. Let me see if I can find some of the numerous articles that I read about this crime and this person to support my claims. In his mind, these women were the temptresses and if he killed them, the temptation would be gone. Another factor might be that his religious nut parents threw him out of the house the day before he went on this killing spree. Sure, he was disturbed, but from all that I've read, religion had a lot to do with his mental status.

There have been a huge number of attacks on Asian Americans, primarily females, ever since Trump started calling COVID, the China flu or Kungflu. So, it's good that more attention has been brought to this disgusting racism against Asian Americans, even if that wasn't what motivated this killer.

I think that what he did was the result of mental illness exacerbated by a profound lack of understanding of human sexuality, including and especially his own, also exacerbated by some seriously fucked up teachings in church, in his family, likely reinforced with a lot of shame and probably significant corporal punishment to reinforce the lessons. Was there sexism mixed in? Probably and probably some racism in the form of believing stereotypes about Asians operating salons. As far as I can tell, the salons offered therapeutic massages rather than sexual services. Of course the nasty stereotype has been repeated throughout the media..for what purpose? Salacious? Laziness? Deliberate attempt to smear Asians? I cannot tell. But it certainly goes hand in hand with the attacks on Asians. I just think that Long's particular heinous acts were probably not the result of that sort of racism but more along the lines of evil temptress kinds of stereotypes. But I could easily be very wrong. Likely we will never know. A lot of boys and young men have very mixed up ideas about sex.

hmm, the weak ass porn that was available to me up to the age of this assailant was a blessing. What I can see now is too much for even my middle aged brain. Scary having adolescents seeing all this, in the best light, "sport fucking".

 

[J842P]

But this might help explain a spokesperson could potentially have a brain that would suggest saying a mass murdering person "had a bad day". Hopefully the spokesperson isn't armed, because we know what he thinks people having bad days are often to do.

So, if you listen to the whole thing in context, the guy was asked about the murderers's motivations and was relaying what the murderer had said. Why is this a problem?

 

[J842P]

Jimmy, why did you feel important to point out that the murderer is white?
He is a piece of shit for sure, but that has nothing to do with his race.

Because the victims were from a small racial minority, making it highly probable they were targeted for their race, and the shooter being a different race is directly relevant to that hypothesis. In fact, the nature of the crime means it is beyond reasonable doubt that people at Asian massage parlors were targeted. That pretty much leaves three non-exclusive possibilities that: 1) he targeted Asians, 2) he targeted massage parlors, or 3) both. Since 2 of those 3 (Asians and both) involve racist motives, that makes the influence of racism more likely than not until proven otherwise.

Information about his sex addiction does drastically change that unless one holds the racist belief all Asian massage parlors and only Asian sex parlors are prostitution houses. In fact, since that would imply he held that belief, that would itself mean his racism played a role.

Even if the primary motive was an idea to kill sex workers, a lack of empathy toward non-whites could have played a role in willingness carry out the plan to the extent he did.

The probability that racism played some role in his actions is further increased by the fact that he's a white male in GA, that fact that most white males in GA are Trump supporters, the fact that Trump support is heavily based in racism and xenophobia, and the fact that COVID and Trump's framing of it has lead many white conservatives to direct racist hate toward Asians.

Well, he frequented those massage parlors.

 

[J842P]

Jimmy, why did you feel important to point out that the murderer is white?
He is a piece of shit for sure, but that has nothing to do with his race.

Because had he not been white, the whole "bad day" thing would likely never been uttered. How many mass killers get that aside from the Police?

Why wouldn't it have been uttered? If he had been, say, Hispanic, you think the guy would not have relayed what the murderer said?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Questions...
1. How little did he think of these people and did race play any role at all? (even if it played such a minor role as to not be a hate crime) I mean, he could have just killed himself instead. OR castrated himself. OR medically castrated himself by taking some kind of medicine. OR checked himself into a facility as a danger to society. Clearly, at some level he made a conscious decision that their lives were meaningless in comparison to his life, his penis, his temporary ability to move freely etc. Clearly, also such person engages in objectification and maybe objectifies these persons quite a bit.
2. Why didn't he run around killing street prostitutes? I haven't been to Atlanta in more than 40 years and so I don't know what is what, but I imagine that prostitutes (and Derec talks about this) in Atlanta can be found online and elsewhere. Derec gave the website which got banned but there's more now probably. Why were his murderous actions confined to massage parlors where there are Asian women as opposed to other sex temptations in Atlanta?
3. What about misogyny? How much did his belittling women play a role if at all?
4. Were all the Asian ladies he killed prostitutes or as he described "temptation?" I've never been to a massage parlor but I know of someone who worked at one who was told that additional side work was optional and voluntary. I am ignorant as to whether all employees engage in sex work or what? Did he just mass target all ladies at the locations and anyone else who got in the way or risked his identity or safety?
5. Police said he was next heading down to Florida to kill some more Asians at massage parlors. Did he also frequent these places? I am starting to get skeptical of that, but who knows really.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Derec]

View attachment 32404

Even that Mother Jones (a far left rag) graphic shows that black mass shooters are overrepresented in the population while white mass shooters are underrepresented.

 

[Derec]

As far as I can tell, the salons offered therapeutic massages rather than sexual services.

Oh, you sweet Summer child! The establishments hit in Atlanta (Aromatherapy and Gold) were KAMPS, i.e. pretty much brothels with a thin veneer of massage. Most women working in KAMPS are Korean, hence the name, but you can occasionally find workers of other ethnicities.
Young's I think was a CAMP - a Chinese-owned and staffed place where you could get a legit massage but often also a "happy ending". Not all Chinese massage parlors offer extras (Young's did from what I can tell) and even if they do, it's mostly just a handy (remember Robert Kraft?) or occasionally a BJ (for real!). In contrast, in KAMPS it is pretty much guaranteed that you can get sex, for a price.

Of course the nasty stereotype has been repeated throughout the media..for what purpose? Salacious? Laziness? Deliberate attempt to smear Asians? I cannot tell.

It's not a nasty stereotype when it's true about these particular places.

But it certainly goes hand in hand with the attacks on Asians. I just think that Long's particular heinous acts were probably not the result of that sort of racism but more along the lines of evil temptress kinds of stereotypes. But I could easily be very wrong. Likely we will never know. A lot of boys and young men have very mixed up ideas about sex.

And your (as well as of illiberals on both sides of the aisle) messed up views about sex work - which is a legitimate profession catering to a legitimate demand - are not helping matters.

 

[Derec]

2. Why didn't he run around killing street prostitutes? I haven't been to Atlanta in more than 40 years and so I don't know what is what, but I imagine that prostitutes (and Derec talks about this) in Atlanta can be found online and elsewhere. Derec gave the website which got banned but there's more now probably. Why were his murderous actions confined to massage parlors where there are Asian women as opposed to other sex temptations in Atlanta?

As you said, using websites is more difficult now due to the Kamala Harris-sponsored law against them.
As to why he only hit AMPs, we will probably never know. Maybe that's the places he frequented and thus knew? Maybe it was just a matter of convenience -well defined targets with many sex workers in one place.

4. Were all the Asian ladies he killed prostitutes or as he described "temptation?" I've never been to a massage parlor but I know of someone who worked at one who was told that additional side work was optional and voluntary. I am ignorant as to whether all employees engage in sex work or what? Did he just mass target all ladies at the locations and anyone else who got in the way or risked his identity or safety?

It really depends on the place. The first two places he hit on Piedmont Rd. are KAMPs where sex is pretty much guaranteed for a price. The 3rd place - all the way in Woodstock is more like what you describe where some workers engage in extras but not all. That does not mean that ladies in a KAMP are not there voluntarily, just that it's basically a brothel with a thin veneer of massage.

5. Police said he was next heading down to Florida to kill some more Asians at massage parlors. Did he also frequent these places? I am starting to get skeptical of that, but who knows really.

I also wonder about why he drove all the way up to Woodstock from Buckhead. There are plenty of AMPs between these two locations. That suggests to me he was maybe targeting places he'd been before.

 

[Derec]

For that matter, how many black mass killers are there?

Apparently, depending on the definition you use either over 70% (NY Times) or 20% (Mother Jones) of all mass killers are black.
To somehow claim mass killings is a white thing is just racist nonsense.

Do we think that in Georgia (or anywhere) a black man could have purchased firearms and ammunition same day as d try I I g from business to business to kill eight people?

Why not? It's easy to buy guns whether you are black, white or otherwise.

 

[Derec]

Because had he not been white, the whole "bad day" thing would likely never been uttered. How many mass killers get that aside from the Police?

How do you know?

 

[Derec]

Because the victims were from a small racial minority, making it highly probable they were targeted for their race, and the shooter being a different race is directly relevant to that hypothesis.

Your conclusion (race was the motive) does not follow from the premise (victims were from a small racial minority). Also, how small?

In fact, the nature of the crime means it is beyond reasonable doubt that people at Asian massage parlors were targeted. That pretty much leaves three non-exclusive possibilities that: 1) he targeted Asians, 2) he targeted massage parlors, or 3) both. Since 2 of those 3 (Asians and both) involve racist motives, that makes the influence of racism more likely than not until proven otherwise.

He also targeted three parlors. Aromatherapy and Gold were hit in Buckhead, but then he drove 30 miles north to hit Young's. But there would have been many AMPs in Buckhead he could have hit. St. Jame's is literally next door to Aromatherapy, and then there is Spring on Manchester and New York Spa less than a mile to the north.
That suggests to me he wanted to hit these three particular massage parlors for whatever reason.
In any case, speculation that this was a racist attack is premature.

Information about his sex addiction does drastically change that unless one holds the racist belief all Asian massage parlors and only Asian sex parlors are prostitution houses.

Well it is not a racist belief if it is true. KAMPs (Aromatherapy and Gold) are pretty much prostitution houses. CAMPs are different in that they provide a real massage and not all offer "extras" and those extras do not usually include sex.
And while you can find plenty of non-Asian women who advertise "massage" but offer sexual services as well, the practice of having it as storefronts is really an Asian thing around here.

In fact, since that would imply he held that belief, that would itself mean his racism played a role.

Not if that belief was well-founded on facts.

Even if the primary motive was an idea to kill sex workers, a lack of empathy toward non-whites could have played a role in willingness carry out the plan to the extent he did.

"Could have" means you are speculating.

The probability that racism played some role in his actions is further increased by the fact that he's a white male in GA,

Who is being racist now?

 

[Derec]

If the murderer were Muslim, do you think the story would have been reported differently?]

Being a Muslim is not a race though. It is a religion. It is a set of beliefs and practices and thus it would be fair game to as in what way his religion played a role. Just like it is fair to ask in what way this guy's fundamentalist Christianity influenced his actions.
Race is thus very different from religion.

If the murdered had been black, do you think you would have been quick to post about it?

Why wouldn't I have?

 

[Toni]

Oh, you sweet Summer child! The establishments hit in Atlanta (Aromatherapy and Gold) were KAMPS, i.e. pretty much brothels with a thin veneer of massage.


Most women working in KAMPS are Korean, hence the name, but you can occasionally find workers of other ethnicities.
Young's I think was a CAMP - a Chinese-owned and staffed place where you could get a legit massage but often also a "happy ending". Not all Chinese massage parlors offer extras (Young's did from what I can tell) and even if they do, it's mostly just a handy (remember Robert Kraft?) or occasionally a BJ (for real!). In contrast, in KAMPS it is pretty much guaranteed that you can get sex, for a price.


It's not a nasty stereotype when it's true about these particular places.

I *think* I asked you whether these were 'legitimate' massage parlors offering legitimate massage services vs sexual services in a different thread, but I never checked back. I found it confusing because it's been reported various ways plus the women shot were all....much older than one typically thinks of a sex worker.

But it certainly goes hand in hand with the attacks on Asians. I just think that Long's particular heinous acts were probably not the result of that sort of racism but more along the lines of evil temptress kinds of stereotypes. But I could easily be very wrong. Likely we will never know. A lot of boys and young men have very mixed up ideas about sex.

And your (as well as of illiberals on both sides of the aisle) messed up views about sex work - which is a legitimate profession catering to a legitimate demand - are not helping matters.

So, women should be available to relieve the sexual urges of confused men so that the men do not shoot up the place?

 

[Toni]

If the murderer were Muslim, do you think the story would have been reported differently?]

Being a Muslim is not a race though. It is a religion. It is a set of beliefs and practices and thus it would be fair game to as in what way his religion played a role. Just like it is fair to ask in what way this guy's fundamentalist Christianity influenced his actions.
Race is thus very different from religion.

You did not answer the question.

If the murdered had been black, do you think you would have been quick to post about it?

Why wouldn't I have?

When have you in the past?