White people and BLM

[Tom Sawyer]

I think it's important that white people join their voices to it along with everyone else. As people keep saying, silence is violence.

This is an issue of equal rights and everyone should feel free to offer their opinions about it. Straight people should speak up about gay rights, white people should speak up about black rights, rich people should speak up about inequality, etc. Just because you're not personally affected by an issue doesn't mean that the issue should be less important to you.

If they're just virtue signalling to look cool, fine. At the very least, they're getting the message out there that this is the side virtue is on.

 

[Politesse]

I feel that way about straight people and Pride; I'm not going to complain about their presence, even if it does at times drown out real gay voices and experiences, because I'm old enough to remember what it was like when it wasn't trendy for straights to embrace queer identity. This isn't perfect, but holy shit is it ever better than what we had. I thank god that kids today will not have to grow up like I did. It's almost meaningless to tell someone that discrimination is wrong, if they don't agree. But no one wants to be unpopular. So popularization is a tangible help to people's everyday lives.

 

[repoman]

So much power just running roughshod

https://twitter.com/AlecMacGillis/status/1271099202395922433

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think it's important that white people join their voices to it along with everyone else. As people keep saying, silence is violence.

This is an issue of equal rights and everyone should feel free to offer their opinions about it. Straight people should speak up about gay rights, white people should speak up about black rights, rich people should speak up about inequality, etc. Just because you're not personally affected by an issue doesn't mean that the issue should be less important to you.

If they're just virtue signalling to look cool, fine. At the very least, they're getting the message out there that this is the side virtue is on.

Nothing is preventing white people from just sharing black people's posts on racism and experiencing racism FB. Instead it's white people mansplaining about it. To other whites presumably, who are patting eachother on the back.

To me it looks like outrage via proxy. White people LARPing black with little interest in how black people are actually feeling about it.

That's what I am reacting to

 

[Politesse]

You sure you aren't projecting a little, there?

 

[DrZoidberg]

You sure you aren't projecting a little, there?

I see why you might think that. But I don't think so. I'm not trying to win any competition in who is the most for black rights. I'm just reacting to what to me comes across as disengenous support for black rights.

Here's a comparisson. Among Swedish feminists women only meetings there is a phenomena where trans women show up and forcefully take the floor and non-transwomen aren't getting a word in edgewise. Naturally I have not been to any of these. But this is a reoccuring complaint among my female feminist friends. And because none of the women wants to risk coming across as transphobic this just keeps going on. The comparisson isn't perfect because trans-women are a very small minority. But this is essentially what I'm talking about regarding BLM. But instead of pro-BLM whites being a small minority, they are the majority and forcefully crowding out black voices. Which I think is counter to what BLM is about.

 

[OLDMAN]

Policing is a huge problem. Picking the cop wannabes is (to me) where the train goes off the tracks. As in the case in Minnesota, why are four swat team members sent to deal with a "POSSIBLE " passing of a fake twenty? And how and why does someone get chocked to death over that? I look at other countries such as in Britain, and there seems a clear divide between policing the public and military type incursions.

Having said that, I have seen people who tried (in Canada) to get into the RCMP and failed because they weren't the right personality types. I thought they would have made great cops....but there still seems to be an unwritten code. Like their looking for people who have each other's backs. Which is fine until they shouldn't be covering up for one another. But I think that is instilled in them from their first day on the job. As a rookie they're watching out for you, sooooo......

The other issue is all the right wing tv casters going on about unlawfulness, as though they can't see the whole point of the issue is that black people are being killed before they are even lawfully booked and arrested. If white people don't like lawlessness, well neither do black people. So if there is no law for black there will be no law for white. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

[ruby sparks]

Policing is a huge problem. Picking the cop wannabes is (to me) where the train goes off the tracks. As in the case in Minnesota, why are four swat team members sent to deal with a "POSSIBLE " passing of a fake twenty? And how and why does someone get chocked to death over that? I look at other countries such as in Britain, and there seems a clear divide between policing the public and military type incursions.

Having said that, I have seen people who tried (in Canada) to get into the RCMP and failed because they weren't the right personality types. I thought they would have made great cops....but there still seems to be an unwritten code. Like their looking for people who have each other's backs. Which is fine until they shouldn't be covering up for one another. But I think that is instilled in them from their first day on the job. As a rookie they're watching out for you, sooooo......

The other issue is all the right wing tv casters going on about unlawfulness, as though they can't see the whole point of the issue is that black people are being killed before they are even lawfully booked and arrested. If white people don't like lawlessness, well neither do black people. So if there is no law for black there will be no law for white. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

Very well put, imo.

Were the four police SWAT though? That's all I might query, but I think your general point stands nonetheless.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Policing is a huge problem. Picking the cop wannabes is (to me) where the train goes off the tracks. As in the case in Minnesota, why are four swat team members sent to deal with a "POSSIBLE " passing of a fake twenty? And how and why does someone get chocked to death over that? I look at other countries such as in Britain, and there seems a clear divide between policing the public and military type incursions.

Having said that, I have seen people who tried (in Canada) to get into the RCMP and failed because they weren't the right personality types. I thought they would have made great cops....but there still seems to be an unwritten code. Like their looking for people who have each other's backs. Which is fine until they shouldn't be covering up for one another. But I think that is instilled in them from their first day on the job. As a rookie they're watching out for you, sooooo......

The other issue is all the right wing tv casters going on about unlawfulness, as though they can't see the whole point of the issue is that black people are being killed before they are even lawfully booked and arrested. If white people don't like lawlessness, well neither do black people. So if there is no law for black there will be no law for white. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

I'm not arguing against BLM. I can read statistics. I understand change is necessary. What I reacted to is the whiteness of those who are seen and heard commenting for BLM.

It's as if a bunch of people in the local neighbourhood have a meeting to discuss racism. There's one black guy. All the white guys give in turn passionate speeches against racism and they all cheer eachother. When it's the black guy's turn to speak, nobody can be arsed to pay attention. He's met by a wall of silence. After the meeting they all pat each others backs and feel proud about all their good work to fight racism.

That's what my Facebook feed looks like.

Yesterday I was in a group chat with a black friend and we talked about his new'ish job as a journalist at a Swedish newspaper. He complained that he hadn't been given any of his own assignments yet. He's been fetching coffee for a year. I said I think that's normal for new guys. Another friend, white, who used to work at the same newspaper, with the same job, then chimed in and said that when he started, he fetched coffee for three months before getting his first proper assignment.

But of course... this is Sweden. So probably doesn't translate that well to the American experience. The reason I'm mentioning it is that I suspect that a lot of every day office racism is invisible to whites. I want to hear the black stories. It's great that the white people are passionate with fighting racism. But could they perhaps keep it down a bit, so we can hear what the black people are saying?

 

[ruby sparks]

It's as if a bunch of people in the local neighbourhood have a meeting to discuss racism. There's one black guy. All the white guys give in turn passionate speeches against racism and they all cheer eachother. When it's the black guy's turn to speak, nobody can be arsed to pay attention. He's met by a wall of silence. After the meeting they all pat each others backs and feel proud about all their good work to fight racism.

That's what my Facebook feed looks like.

Maybe that says something about your facebook feed.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's as if a bunch of people in the local neighbourhood have a meeting to discuss racism. There's one black guy. All the white guys give in turn passionate speeches against racism and they all cheer eachother. When it's the black guy's turn to speak, nobody can be arsed to pay attention. He's met by a wall of silence. After the meeting they all pat each others backs and feel proud about all their good work to fight racism.

That's what my Facebook feed looks like.

Maybe that says something about your facebook feed.

That's why I created this thread. I was asking if it is like this for everyone or just me. It could be different for me, since most of my friends are Swedish. And Sweden is now incredibly woke. It suffocates everything in the country

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

You sure you aren't projecting a little, there?

I see why you might think that. But I don't think so. I'm not trying to win any competition in who is the most for black rights. I'm just reacting to what to me comes across as disengenous support for black rights.

Here's a comparisson. Among Swedish feminists women only meetings there is a phenomena where trans women show up and forcefully take the floor and non-transwomen aren't getting a word in edgewise. Naturally I have not been to any of these. But this is a reoccuring complaint among my female feminist friends. And because none of the women wants to risk coming across as transphobic this just keeps going on. The comparisson isn't perfect because trans-women are a very small minority. But this is essentially what I'm talking about regarding BLM. But instead of pro-BLM whites being a small minority, they are the majority and forcefully crowding out black voices. Which I think is counter to what BLM is about.

I don't see any crowding out of black voices in the USA. In fact, I see much greater visibility for people of color about this issue and others.

 

[southernhybrid]

I almost never post on Facebook anymore, but I haven't yet closed my account. The only white person that I know who posted BLM on her page is married to a black man and has four mixed race kids. Was that okay? She's far more bothered and concerned with these issues than her sweet, laid back husband seems to be. She took one of her kids to a protest rally then made a big thing about it on FB. Was that okay?

One of my closest black friends and I call each other three days a week and chat for over an hour. While we discuss many mundane things, most of our conversations are about politics and race relations. She is happy when white people join in and support BLM, but she is also very worried that the protests will cause an upswing in COVID cases. She told me today that some old Confederate monuments were vandalized in a veterans cemetery yesterday, and she worries that things like that will hurt the movement. We both want all of these monuments replaced and the names of military bases that were named after Confederate generals changed. Neither of us even knew that so many army bases had Confederate names. When we chat for over an hour, I don't think either of us feel as if we are different based on the color of our skin. We are just two 70 year old women who became friends about five years ago, who are both Democrats and who both want people of all races to be treated as equals.

Just because I'm not black doesn't mean that I can't appreciated black culture. Half of my vast music collection is black artists. In fact, I asked my friend if she likes jazz. Her answer was, "Black people don't like jazz". I told her that most white people don't like jazz either. But, we both love soul and funk. She loves gospel while I enjoy opera. Both are certainly passionate genres of music.

I've asked this friend if she or her husband have ever been harassed by the police. She said no. I shared a story about a police man that acted scared of my husband, who is of Arabic descent, when he was giving him a speeding ticket. We both agreed that the police are out of control and neither of us feel comfortable around them. Until you have close friends from different races, educational backgrounds and socioeconomic backgrounds, it's hard to really understand the problems or privileges that each group has. I don't think it's wrong to advocate and support those who don't share your privilege. The goal is to bring us all closer together. What's wrong with that?


Oh, and my white friend with the mixed race kids was trying to explain to her clueless white friends that all lives matter is an insult. I honestly don't think her husband is very interested in these things. He's just the type of person who doesn't let assholes bother him, while she is always up in arms about any perceived transgression when it comes to race or religion. Yes. She's an atheist, who was once a Christian. As an atheist who has been treated poorly, or condemned by extremist Christians on occasion, I have no problem when liberal Christians defend and support me. I see nothing wrong when white people defend black people who are being treated poorly. We all need to stand up for each other when injustice occurs.

So, I tend to agree a lot more with what Politesse and Tharmas have posted in this thread. I live in a city that is about 60% black. There is still some racism here, but I've discovered that when schools, neighborhoods and work places become more integrated, most racist views begin to fade away over time. Now, if we could just get Christianity to have less influence here, it would be perfect.

And, while I was highly skeptical that this latest movement wouldn't change a thing, it's already done a few good things. Louisville, Kentucky just established "Breanna's Law" named after the young woman who was killed by the police who used a no knock warrant to enter her home. No knock warrants are now illegal in Louisville. And, several cities have banned police tactics such as choke holds. Even better, several large cities have promised to spend a lot less money on police and increase money on schools, and other social programs, as well as using more appropriate professionals to deal with mentally ill folks, domestic abuse and other social problems that have been delegated to the police. I'm more optimistic than I was before, but I know damn well that these protests must continue until more of these things are established or this movement will die out as most do.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I almost never post on Facebook anymore, but I haven't yet closed my account. The only white person that I know who posted BLM on her page is married to a black man and has four mixed race kids. Was that okay? She's far more bothered and concerned with these issues than her sweet, laid back husband seems to be. She took one of her kids to a protest rally then made a big thing about it on FB. Was that okay?

it's okay, but only because she has skin in the game. Otherwise she'd be a nosy white girl trying to relieve guilt. She better take at least one kid to all protests, voter registration drives, and display their pictures prominently with any charity donations. She oughtta get the family photo on her checks to get proper credit as a line-crossing liberal.

Kind reminds me of the Navy's imposition of zero-tolerance for bigotry. Someone would tell a joke, i felt uncomfortable, told them those jokes were not allowed.
"Oh, sorry," they would say. "I did not know you were (Jewish, for example)." They could only understand offense if i was directly targeted. The idea that i could randomly say a completely discrete group of people should not be spoken of in that manner, when i wasn't black, gay, a woman, muslim, dwarf, scrottled their nerds.

If it's wrong, it's wrong, and it should be wrong for anyone, even bystanders.

 

[Toni]

I'm aware of the trope. [/quote[

It's not a trope.

a figurative or metaphorical use of a word or expression.
"he used the two-Americas trope to explain how a nation free and democratic at home could act wantonly abroad"

But I think the Internet and social media has changed all this. Information is now spread at lightning speed. We are overwhelmed by chattering voices. Supporting a cause on social media without adding anything of value and dumbing down the discourse by spouting badly phrased one liners is not helping.

What's being added is support.

How do you see To be silent is to be complicit as a badly phrased one liner? It is a paraphrase of Albert Einstein:

Albert Einstein said: “If I were to remain silent, I’d be guilty of complicity.” Complicity…to be complicit. For me, this word, “complicit” is the most important word of our time. To remain silent is to be complicit.

I think it is ruining it for your own team. The new trope should be "mindlesly spreading badly written articles is to be complicit". Today being silent is more golden than ever.

There are not words enough to express how heartily I disagree.

The highest value in the public discourse is today curation. Somebody takes their time to master a subject. They read an article carefully and thoughtfully and if they think it's good they write their own well formulated short abstract and post the link of their social media. I started systematically blocking people who continually make thoughtless posts years ago. I don't care what side they are for. I hate the behaviour. I loathe ideological social media bubbles where members continually just validate each other and there's zero critique. Which is one of the reasons I like this forum.

To discuss race and racism in the US is a difficult and painful subject for many people, including most white people. But to sit silent as we see, time and again, black people unjustly accused of criminal offenses simply for...being black, murdered at the hands of police who are sworn to serve and protect? It is reprehensible to sit silent. We MUST speak up. Even if we are clumsy in our words.

It’s imprtant to speak up as these women are: http://www.citypages.com/news/subur...y-dont-want-an-apology-for-protests/571108911

So the news here is that one politician makes a statement that he immidiately regrets and then does damage control. How is this news? Or relevant?

White women, particularly white suburban mothers are frequently denigrated as being more interested in preserving their white enclaves and ensuring little Beckett's chances at the best spot in the best preschool/elementary schoo/prep school/Ivy league school than in actual issues such as racial equality. Ignoring the vote of white men in the US, white women are frequently blamed for voting for Trump. This is actually a sea change: women of some privilege who are safe and whose children are safe from the particular dangers that black mothers and their children must deal with on a daily basis flat out saying that they don't need to be protected from black folk!

Do you really think that there's a causal connection between what these suburban moms say and any meaningful change in society?

It's quite contrary to the stereotype of white suburban women. Who, btw, know how to organize and network and get things done.

To me it looks like nothing but noise

.
Well of course. It's women speaking up, for one thing. But more importantly, you are not terribly well informed about US politics or society.

The kind of stuff I was whining about in the above paragraph. We need less of these kinds of articles being spread, because they add nothing IMHO. It's articles like this that dumb down the entire discourse and has led to the return of 1930'ies style utopian mass movements led by charismatic leaders IMHO.

Oh, bullshit. It's the start of a sea change of people being forced to recognize that there really isn't some set of white enclaves filled with thoughtless women who dream only of their next botox and designer bag and getting little Beckett into whatever little Beckett wants to do except only the very BEST.

 

[DrZoidberg]

BLM has been debated intensively in Scandinavian media the last couple of days and yesterday I was out for drinks with a couple of black friends, among others. We also discussed BLM. I had some insights.

Here's a quote from one of my black friends "I'm so done with BLM. It's too much." I know her well and I know she's had to deal with a lot of racism in her life. But she's still managed to climb the corporate ladder and has a high level status job. The racism she talked about was from people trying really hard not to be racist, but then do racist things anyway because that's the inevitable result of trying too hard not to be racist. They're sick of patronising whites telling them how they should be offended, racism of low expectations, where people are just super happy they might get a black friend, so they become retarded about it. The other guy is Nigerian and a scientist. He just says flat out that he doesn't think he's been the target of racism in Denmark. When angry people yell "nigger" at him, he doesn't register that as racism. Just somebody trying really hard to use hurty words. He thinks that the Danish blacks he knows who complain about racism are just lazy losers who are too wrapped up in their victim blanket to do anything with their lives. And blame their own lack of inititiative on others. He claimed emphatically that there's nothing to prevent a black person to do something with their lives in Denmark. The woman had a different experience. It was intresting to be in a discussion with two black people where they're arguing about how much a victim of racism they've been and they're in disagrement.

But they both agreed that BLM was bullshit. They had quite strong opinions about that. They thought it was mostly about white people white knighting. Rather than any genuine wish to stop racism. They thought it was patronising and insulting.

I think BLM in USA is different than BLM anywhere else. I suspect it's history of slavery, Jim Crowe laws, segregation and the civil rights movement makes it different. Rights for blacks had to be won step by step. Europe has had a very different racist history, where the racism towards blacks has been largely implicit than explicit. I don't think any European country has ever had special anti-black laws. In every European country blacks got civil rights together with everybody else. When they started showing up in northern Europe in any numbers, they already had all the rights. And there has never been any popular movement trying to take those rights away. Even European right wing parties don't have it on the agenda. They want to send "home" the people not born in Europe. But otherwise they're cool with blacks staying and having the same rights as whites.

I just thought I'd share.

 

[repoman]

It is not the job of individual people to hamstring themselves more than is need to a small degree because of past injustices committed by their group. Especially in response to hectoring.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

He just says flat out that he doesn't think he's been the target of racism in Denmark. When angry people yell "nigger" at him, he doesn't register that as racism. Just somebody trying really hard to use hurty words.

Aka, "racism." Why else does he think they were trying really hard to use "hurty words"?

 

[Keith&Co.]

He just says flat out that he doesn't think he's been the target of racism in Denmark. When angry people yell "nigger" at him, he doesn't register that as racism. Just somebody trying really hard to use hurty words.

Aka, "racism." Why else does he think they were trying really hard to use "hurty words"?

And why THAT word, not "honky" or "slope" or "harpy"? "Jarhead?"
There are zillions of hurty words. But no one looks at me and thinks i'll be hurt by "zoomie" or "darkie" or "gook."

 

[DrZoidberg]

He just says flat out that he doesn't think he's been the target of racism in Denmark. When angry people yell "nigger" at him, he doesn't register that as racism. Just somebody trying really hard to use hurty words.

Aka, "racism." Why else does he think they were trying really hard to use "hurty words"?

I don't think so. Not necessarily. Racism is when somebody is angry at him because he's black. Or that he's treated differently because of his skin colour. If he'd gotten into an argument with somebody and been white, they might have instead called him a "cunt" or something equally colourful. If all the "racism" does is inform what insult is used by somebody already angry, it's not really racism IMHO. I think that's just trying too hard to find things that aren't really there.

Misattributed racism happens all the time. I remember another black guy, a collegue of mine who was fired. I remember randomly meeting him at a party after this and talking about it. He thought it was racism. Nope. That guy fucking sucked at his job. That's why he was fired. He was also bitter about them stealing his ideas and not giving credit. Ideas are cheap and ubiquitus. It's making them a reality that's the hard work. Yet, he wanted a cut and was bitter about it, and thought a white person would have gotten a cut. No. No, they wouldn't. He was just a delusional ass who didn't understand the business he was in. He saw racism were there was none.

To a hammer everything is a nail. You can interpret anything as racism if you try hard enough. Isn't that what you are doing?