White people and BLM

[DrZoidberg]

I'm a lefty. I have a lot of liberal friends on Facebook. Taking an inventory of Black Lives Matter posts by my friends on Facebook. So far all white people who have made pro-BLM posts, I have seen, have been needlessly extreme virtue signalling drivel. While the black people I know on FB who have posted BLM posts that tend to be thoughtful, sensible and relevant. Most have posted nothing.

I hate to admit it, but sometimes the fourth wave intersectional feminists are correct. It's like white people feel sad they're left out this time and feel the need to completely drown out black voices, because by golly, if we can't racially oppress you the old fashioned way we can take your voices away from you by sheer volume of posts.

It reminds me of a discussion I had last week about prostitution where some feminist Swedish politician was on the topic and I was thinking, who gives a shit about her opinion, she's middle class and have never been in a position where selling sex might be a reasonable and realistic choice, why are we listening to her.

I feel the same way about white people and BLM. No white person can possibly know how it is to be black. Just sit the fuck down and listen instead of posting shit. You are not helping.

Anyhoo.. I'm white BTW

Thoughts?

 

[repoman]

A white person can know what it is like to be Daniel Shaver or Tony Timpa.

Anyway, I think that this performative grief for fear of being ostracized best explained with this video.



The top comment is this:

They have turned social media into Maoist Struggle Sessions. It's so creepy.

The best answer to this from a white person would probably from a non college educated blue collar person who avoided both Trumpism and social justice indoctrination.

The best solution in general is a very strong wind down of Qualified Immunity and police funded by seizing "drug" property. Also deescalation training and so on.

There will be a lag of the general public still being on edge and treating cops with the disrespect that they have EARNED for decades now, but over time both sides can be kinder.

 

[Ford]

I find it endlessly fascinating that my conservative friends on the Facebook have taken this opportunity to post quotes from Dr. King on their pages. Like...you really just had this meme in your quiver and were waiting for a moment of social unrest to post it? Please.

It reminds me of something I noticed decades ago and have made a conscious effort to avoid. Attempting to portray myself as "down with" your black or brown compatriots. I see this done by some of my friends and it makes me cringe. One moment they're talking in their usual voice, and then when a black person shows up they switch and say "yo...what up dog?" No. Just...no. You're not part of their community. You don't have the same background or experiences. You're not in any way "down with" them. So don't pretend.

When I was working on air at a radio station in a market where the population was overwhelmingly Latino and black, I think that maybe the reason I was successful is because I never pretended to be anything other than the white guy in the room. Because I realized very early on that people can see right through that shit. When I see my white friends posting memes that reference these things I want to grab them and say "you're not fooling anyone."

Some of them are sincere in their intentions...I'd like to think most of them are sincere. Yet pretending you're standing in solidarity because you found some quote from Dr. King and posted it on your social media isn't really helping. Don't try to be a member of the community. Be an ally, and perhaps most importantly be yourself.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The top comment is this:

They have turned social media into Maoist Struggle Sessions. It's so creepy.

I'm also getting Maoist vibes from this. It's like white people are just making BLM posts in order to avoid being accused of being racist themselves. Yes, it's creepy.

I also dislike this culture of that things don't count unless it's on video and there's some tearjerker attached. We can all read the statistics. Blacks in USA are shot much more than Latinos. It's sad that we need a video to feel outrage about that.

The philosopher Alexander Bard calls is "sensocracy". Rule by feelings. Nothing matters unless it's wrapped up in an easily digested story with clear good guys and bad guys. It's also mob rule and will never lead to any meaningful solution. It'll just lead to empty political symbols and gestures and the murdering of scape goats. But no real change.

There will be a lag of the general public still being on edge and treating cops with the disrespect that they have EARNED for decades now, but over time both sides can be kinder.

Hm... the problem here is the idea of a cop. I've had the misfortune to be accused of a serious crime. I was wrongly accused. But I was still put through the machine. It was quite sobering.

Cops aren't good people. If they used their judgement and thought about if their actions are necessary in each case, they couldn't do their jobs. They'd also get walked over by career criminals. They have to see themselves as some sort of knights of goodness and everybody they suspect of a crime has to be seen as evil incarnate. Or the job would be too stresssful on the psyche.

I like to think of cops as the same kind of people as criminals. Society has just cleverly co-opted one group of transgressive violent misfits to do our bidding and work for the common good. What they do is for the common good, but they are still horrible people. I'm sure they all see themselves as the good guys. But they're not and I doubt they could do their jobs effectively if they were.

Anybody up against the police will get badly fucked up. No matter if you're innocent or not. The solution is to keep cops on a very short leash and insist on everything being recorded. But this idea that some cops are bad apples and we just need to kick them out of the force is dangerously naive IMHO. It'll just lead to corruption and cops closing ranks, and they'll protect eachother no matter what evil they do. How about assume that all cops are bad apples and work from that assumption?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Some of them are sincere in their intentions...I'd like to think most of them are sincere. Yet pretending you're standing in solidarity because you found some quote from Dr. King and posted it on your social media isn't really helping. Don't try to be a member of the community. Be an ally, and perhaps most importantly be yourself.

I don't think it's insincerity. These white people seem very sincere and serious about BLM. They just seem to caught up in their own heads and rage (victimhood via proxy) to stop and think wtf they're doing, why they are doing it and who they think they are helping. It's cultural apropriation, isn't it?

 

[Tigers!]

How about assume that all cops are bad apples and work from that assumption?

So assume, generalise, sterotype, tar with same brush etc.
That will help with understanding and provide a means of going forward.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

I'm a lefty. I have a lot of liberal friends on Facebook. Taking an inventory of Black Lives Matter posts by my friends on Facebook. So far all white people who have made pro-BLM posts, I have seen, have been needlessly extreme virtue signalling drivel. While the black people I know on FB who have posted BLM posts that tend to be thoughtful, sensible and relevant. Most have posted nothing.

I hate to admit it, but sometimes the fourth wave intersectional feminists are correct. It's like white people feel sad they're left out this time and feel the need to completely drown out black voices, because by golly, if we can't racially oppress you the old fashioned way we can take your voices away from you by sheer volume of posts.

It reminds me of a discussion I had last week about prostitution where some feminist Swedish politician was on the topic and I was thinking, who gives a shit about her opinion, she's middle class and have never been in a position where selling sex might be a reasonable and realistic choice, why are we listening to her.

I feel the same way about white people and BLM. No white person can possibly know how it is to be black. Just sit the fuck down and listen instead of posting shit. You are not helping.

Anyhoo.. I'm white BTW

Thoughts?

Posts from my liberal friends have mostly been attempts to get people to understand why saying "All lives matter" is proof that you've totally missed the point of "Black lives matter". No quotes from Dr. King, no attempts to drown anyone out, and surely no attempts to oppress anyone.

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your choices of friends.

 

[DrZoidberg]

How about assume that all cops are bad apples and work from that assumption?

So assume, generalise, sterotype, tar with same brush etc.
That will help with understanding and provide a means of going forward.

I might as well say that instead of trying to understand the situation, you are trying to deny reality. I don't think the police force attracts good people. I think you need to be ethically corrupt to enjoy that kind of job. All evidence I've seen supports this.

There's a maxim in science that says "All models are wrong. But some are useful". What I'm saying is that we're better off assuming all cops are terrible people, the worst of the worst, and design our rules around that, even if they might not be. There might be some pure souls out there in the force. Good for them. But we're not doing ourselves any favours by expecting all (or even most) to be good. Which is what we're doing now.

Annecdotaly I once had an ex cop as an assistant at work. During breaks we'd often talk about her experiences on the force. The interesting thing about her stories was that in her mind they were all framed as her being a hero. But that's not what came out. Her stories needed minimal poking to find gross transgressions against anybody remotely a suspect or even associated. Naturally... or she couldn't have done her job. Following all the ethical rules isn't really an option for a cop who wants results. Instead they follow the law, strictly, and treat it like a game to be won, damn any ethical considerations or them hurting anyone. In her mind this was her being a good person. Which was the truly terrifying part about it. She was convinced of her own goodness. Few things is more terrifying than evil people convinced they are good. They have zero ethical boundaries holding them back. They can justify any behaviour, because they see themselves as good.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Posts from my liberal friends have mostly been attempts to get people to understand why saying "All lives matter" is proof that you've totally missed the point of "Black lives matter". No quotes from Dr. King, no attempts to drown anyone out, and surely no attempts to oppress anyone.

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your choices of friends.

I just assume that the people who make "all lives matter" posts are just run-of-the-mill racists. Don't you think so?

I have also noticed that it's the same people who whenever there's anything posted about men's violence against women, they feel the urge to pick that exact moment to explain that men are also victims of domestic violence. It seems to be a pattern. They also have a lot of pictures on social media of them holding up a big fish.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

Posts from my liberal friends have mostly been attempts to get people to understand why saying "All lives matter" is proof that you've totally missed the point of "Black lives matter". No quotes from Dr. King, no attempts to drown anyone out, and surely no attempts to oppress anyone.

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your choices of friends.

I just assume that the people who make "all lives matter" posts are just run-of-the-mill racists. Don't you think so?

I have also noticed that it's the same people who whenever there's anything posted about men's violence against women, they feel the urge to pick that exact moment to explain that men are also victims of domestic violence. It seems to be a pattern. They also have a lot of pictures on social media of them holding up a big fish.

No, I don't automatically categorize all of them that way, although some of them surely are. For the ones who aren't, it's worthwhile to explain that BLM isn't a demand for "special" treatment, it's a call for help in a time of need.

The events of the last couple weeks have had more impact on SCROTUS's approval rating than anything that's happened in the past three and a half years. That 43% he's always relied on may not be so solid (or so solidly racist) after all.

 

[Tharmas]

DrZoidberg, if I understand you correctly I have to disagree somewhat. There has been a long history in this country of whites working alongside blacks for freedom, from the Abolitionists of the 19th century to the college students marching with MLK in the 60s. I recently recalled on another thread my brother, who spent the “long hot summer” of 1964 in Mississippi, at some threat to his life, helping register black voters.

So I for one heartily approve of the whites and Latinos of all ages who are marching with the black protesters in the current situation. We have a shared history, and as far as I can tell the black crowds welcome us. It doesn’t seem like cultural appropriation from where I sit.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

 

[ideologyhunter]

C'mon, watch your TV. Mitt Romney is a brother!!!

 

[DrZoidberg]

DrZoidberg, if I understand you correctly I have to disagree somewhat. There has been a long history in this country of whites working alongside blacks for freedom, from the Abolitionists of the 19th century to the college students marching with MLK in the 60s. I recently recalled on another thread my brother, who spent the “long hot summer” of 1964 in Mississippi, at some threat to his life, helping register black voters.

So I for one heartily approve of the whites and Latinos of all ages who are marching with the black protesters in the current situation. We have a shared history, and as far as I can tell the black crowds welcome us. It doesn’t seem like cultural appropriation from where I sit.

It's a world of difference between then and now. I was in a similar breaking point in history regarding gay rights in the 80'ies and 90'ies, where gays went from legitimate targets of ridicule and marginalisation to people we were supposed to treat with respect. Speaking up about being supportive of gay rights was a edgy and socially risky thing to do then. Now it's the opposite. Being a homophobe is the socially risky thing to be. Same deal with racism.

A person being opposted to racism on social media today is taking no risks. They are not making any meaningful statements. Any white person who just keeps their mouth shut today is assumed to be against racism. Showing up at a protest against racism today... meh.

I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist (nor homophobia). But to fight racism today we need to be more nuanced then just to say "no to racism". Today it's a lot harder. Needs more of an effort. I still walk in the gay pride parade each year. But I'm not deluding myself today that I'm doing the gay cause any favours. That train has left the station. I just do it for fun. I think it's the same reason most white people went to the BLM demos.

 

[DrZoidberg]

it's worthwhile to explain that BLM isn't a demand for "special" treatment, it's a call for help in a time of need.

That's very pithy. But I don't get it. Who is getting helped by white people making hyperbolic posts on their FB wall? Nobody is helped by hysterics. Unless there's a mission with a clear goal, what is being acheived?

The events of the last couple weeks have had more impact on SCROTUS's approval rating than anything that's happened in the past three and a half years. That 43% he's always relied on may not be so solid (or so solidly racist) after all.

So it's not about black people, it's demonstrations against Trump? Really? If that's what it is I think it's even dumber. And disengenous. And counter productive.

 

[DrZoidberg]

CEO for Crossfit Glassman made this tweet "Can you tell me why I should mourn for him? Other than that it's the white thing to do."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52988959

He then got removed from his position because of it. He's not wrong.

There's a strong social pressure among whites to support BLM and issue supportive statements of it. But not in any meaningful way. Making pro-BLM statements is now a ritual that needs to be performed or we risk losing our jobs and social ostriziation. That's pretty extreme.

But I think we can all agree that racism is still a problem. So this extreme enforced wokeness isn't solving the one problem it's supposed to solve. How isn't it a pointless social movement slowly choking itself to death?

 

[TV and credit cards]

I think it was “Floyd-19” that did it.

So, if white people were silent these past couple weeks, you’d be singing their praises?

 

[ruby sparks]

I'm a lefty. I have a lot of liberal friends on Facebook. Taking an inventory of Black Lives Matter posts by my friends on Facebook. So far all white people who have made pro-BLM posts, I have seen, have been needlessly extreme virtue signalling drivel. While the black people I know on FB who have posted BLM posts that tend to be thoughtful, sensible and relevant. Most have posted nothing.

I hate to admit it, but sometimes the fourth wave intersectional feminists are correct. It's like white people feel sad they're left out this time and feel the need to completely drown out black voices, because by golly, if we can't racially oppress you the old fashioned way we can take your voices away from you by sheer volume of posts.

It reminds me of a discussion I had last week about prostitution where some feminist Swedish politician was on the topic and I was thinking, who gives a shit about her opinion, she's middle class and have never been in a position where selling sex might be a reasonable and realistic choice, why are we listening to her.

I feel the same way about white people and BLM. No white person can possibly know how it is to be black. Just sit the fuck down and listen instead of posting shit. You are not helping.

Anyhoo.. I'm white BTW

Thoughts?

I haven't read the whole thread but yes, my guess is that there is some virtue signalling from whites, and not just individuals, but also from the mainstream media, which to some extent acts as a confirmation to and an echo chamber for those whites.

But I wouldn't want to be too cynical. On the whole, whites supporting the issues of non-whites is by and large a good thing, even if nuanced in the way you suggest. And many of the whites are not just virtue-signalling, imo.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I'm a lefty. I have a lot of liberal friends on Facebook. Taking an inventory of Black Lives Matter posts by my friends on Facebook. So far all white people who have made pro-BLM posts, I have seen, have been needlessly extreme virtue signalling drivel. While the black people I know on FB who have posted BLM posts that tend to be thoughtful, sensible and relevant. Most have posted nothing.

I hate to admit it, but sometimes the fourth wave intersectional feminists are correct. It's like white people feel sad they're left out this time and feel the need to completely drown out black voices, because by golly, if we can't racially oppress you the old fashioned way we can take your voices away from you by sheer volume of posts.

It reminds me of a discussion I had last week about prostitution where some feminist Swedish politician was on the topic and I was thinking, who gives a shit about her opinion, she's middle class and have never been in a position where selling sex might be a reasonable and realistic choice, why are we listening to her.

I feel the same way about white people and BLM. No white person can possibly know how it is to be black. Just sit the fuck down and listen instead of posting shit. You are not helping.

Anyhoo.. I'm white BTW

Thoughts?

I haven't read the whole thread but yes, my guess is that there is some virtue signalling from whites, and not just individuals, but also from the mainstream media, which to some extent acts as a confirmation to and an echo chamber for those whites.

But I wouldn't want to be too cynical. On the whole, whites supporting the issues of non-whites is by and large a good thing, even if nuanced in the way you suggest. And many of the whites are not just virtue-signalling, imo.

In an article from The Guardian, David Shariatmadari argues that the typicality of virtue signalling to show off one's own values makes it no different than the acts that it was supposed to abhor. That is, virtue signalling is designed to call out individuals on their lack of action, but the very act of doing so is an act of virtue signalling in itself. He addresses the recognition of one's virtue signalling as "smug" and points out that it comes from individuals with a false sense of power or superiority.


Hopefully this ad hominem attack, "virtue signalling" will die the quick death it deserves. To assume someone is disingenuous in their attempt at empathy or to qualify oneself as some authority (more in tune to someone's else cultural experience) in judging other's attempts at empathy can only exacerbate divisiveness.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think it was “Floyd-19” that did it.

Wasn't that a reference to the riots and looting? Which, again, isn't exactly evidence of his racism. As far as I can tell he had the same reaction I had to the Floyd-BLM. And I don't think I'm a racist. He might be a racist. I don't know. I don't think that can be concluded from these tweets.

So, if white people were silent these past couple weeks, you’d be singing their praises?

You're missing the point. You're drawing the exactly wrong conclusion of what I am saying. I don't want any publicly subscribed obligatory ritual around this. No matter what that ritual is. I want people to write things if they have something to say. Not because they are performing a ritual.

And it's got to be ok not to make any statements on this. It's got to be ok to never say anything ever. Listening, paying attention and reflecting should be the thing rewarded above all in any culture. That's how to create thoughtful, empathic and humble citizens. This insistance that everybody has to say something on everything all the time, and they must express the socially accepted politically correct opinion... where's the reflection? That's a nation of mindless puppets.

BTW, I'm not bashing USA. Sweden is the same. Denmark is more sensible. Thank God (who doesn't exist).

So no, I'm not going to applaud anybody for saying anything on social media, that anybody else has already said. That includes being silent.