White people and BLM

[Politesse]

I just assumed you use racial and misogynist slurs yourself, given that you are so passionate on the subject. If not, why not, since according to you, no one should ever dare assume you mean them when you say them? And yes, I'm the one doing the assuming, because it is entirely reasonable to assume that someone means the things they say. Of course that's what I assume. That's what anyone would assume.

i'm sure if you continue to dig this hole, you'll eventually wind up outside of it.

That's not an answer to my question.

 

[prideandfall]

I just assumed you use racial and misogynist slurs yourself, given that you are so passionate on the subject. If not, why not, since according to you, no one should ever dare assume you mean them when you say them? And yes, I'm the one doing the assuming, because it is entirely reasonable to assume that someone means the things they say. Of course that's what I assume. That's what anyone would assume.

i'm sure if you continue to dig this hole, you'll eventually wind up outside of it.

That's not an answer to my question.

well, you haven't asked a question, you've made a series of sweeping assumptions and then demanded an explanation for the straw man that you landed on based on your presumption of psychic powers.
make a post that isn't a wild accusation with no foundation in reality and then maybe we'll get somewhere.

 

[Politesse]

That's not an answer to my question.

well, you haven't asked a question, you've made a series of sweeping assumptions and then demanded an explanation for the straw man that you landed on based on your presumption of psychic powers.
make a post that isn't a wild accusation with no foundation in reality and then maybe we'll get somewhere.

Do you use racial and misogynist slurs? If not, why not, if you genuinely feel that no one would have any right to assume you meant them?

 

[prideandfall]

Do you use racial and misogynist slurs? If not, why not

no, i don't. for two reasons: i have no reason to, and i have no impetus to.

if you genuinely feel that no one would have any right to assume you meant them?

there you go with your wild assumptions again.

zoidberg related an anecdote from denmark about a black man being called a nigger and not attributing it to racism. somebody who isn't you said they couldn't see how it could be anything but racism. i replied to them, saying how i could see a context in which it wouldn't be racism.

and now here you are a page and a half later still yelling at me about being a bigot who screams racial slurs at people on the street.
quite frankly i don't have the first clue as to what in the hell you're even on about, but you've clearly demonstrated that talking to you is basically just interacting with a mad-libs of self righteous lunacy, so you have fun with that because i'm now bored of it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's not being treated differently. If someone is shouting in anger at him for a reason unrelated to race, what is, said is of less consequence than the fact its being shouted. Angry people say a lot of things they might later regret. Often angry people are just trying to push angry buttons in the other to provoke a reaction. Just anything that might hurt.

And why would the person shouting "nigger" at your friend think it might hurt? Because the person shouting it is a racist and thinks the word "nigger" is an insult.

Just change it up. Your friend isn't black, he's asian and Person A calls him a "nigger" in anger as an insult. Is Person A a racist? Yes, because he (a) thinks being a black person--aka, "nigger"-- is an insult and (b) is comparing your asian friend to being a black person by calling him "nigger" in anger.

Once again, "nigger" has no alternative meaning. It is a pejorative term that reduces and denigrates all black people to being subhuman. If I am calling you a "nigger" in anger, I am calling you a subhuman being. Your own skin color may not be full of melanin for it to nevertheless be racist for me to call you a nigger.

So, unless someone is calling your friend that as a tasteless joke and not in genuine anger, then, again, I don't see how it's not racist. I've said a lot of things in anger, but calling a black person (or anyone) "nigger" in anger would only reveal my perhaps here-to-fore latent racism.

This is rediculous IMHO. This is so damn snowflakey. If you think this is real offence I doubt you've ever had your feelings hurt.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If you call a woman a "cunt", you don't deserve the benefit of a doubt for that either. What are you even on about?

It's your job not to present yourself as a bigoted asshole, not everyone else's job to dive deep and find the inner you beneath your harsh words. You aren't that important.

The template for a human being can't be the world's most neurotic uptight middle class person. Real people have real feelings. If this is your baseline for how normal people should be you're just like Catholics having impossible moral standards, just to guarantee that everybody will feel ashamed of themselves for being sinners. I don't see how this is in any way beneficial to the world. It's not going to make the world a better place.

I don't hurl insults at people when I'm angry and drunk. But then I am middle-class. I am pretty repressed and emotionally controlled. I also have worked as a manager for most of my adult life. Losing control comes with a high cost for me. I also dance salsa on my free time. The type people who shout unacceptable slurs when angry are often the best dancers. I'm not a great dancer. I think there's a connection.

This extreme political correctness being upheld as the minimum basic standard for behaviour is so extreme it has to be about something else than making people behave better. I suspect it's yet another middle class conspiracy designed to shame the working class for daring to live a little. Don't you think that is what is going on?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Now I have another example of black people disagreeing on BLM. This time with feminism thrown in.

I'm in the same chat group as a group of Stockholm friends. These are party people. We're not super close. But hang out and party now and again. One guy in the chat group is from Gambia. He lives in Stockholm with his wife. She is also black, but born in Sweden. She's an anti-racism activist, has a degree in feminism and racism studies, and very active in the BLM movement. He's a professional football player, in the lower divisions, and has experienced a lot of racism in his life. Yet thinks BLM is complete bullshit. He kept his mouth shut initially at home. But when their daughter started repeating the slogans, blaming everything that goes bad at school on systemic racism and patriarchal opression. At that point he felt he needed to put his foot down and tell his wife what he actually felt about BLM and that he doesn't think this way of thinking is benefitting their daughter. He thinks she's making their daughter paranoid. Now there's trouble in paradise. This has turned into a major shit storm and he's turning to us for advice. Not that we're helping much. She seems completely unhinged. She might not be representative for the BLM community at large, and we've only heard his version of this story.

We're not super close. I've only met him a couple of times. He seems to be a really cool guy. Extremely down to earth. Not a deep thinker. But definitely smart. He's muslim. But the most liberal muslim immaginable. His view of racism seems to be that some people are just assholes for no reason. The cool people worth having in one's life aren't racist anyway. so he sees no reason to worry about it. This is coming from a guy in the sports world, probably the least progressive environments, outside of a Trump rally.

 

[Politesse]

If you call a woman a "cunt", you don't deserve the benefit of a doubt for that either. What are you even on about?

It's your job not to present yourself as a bigoted asshole, not everyone else's job to dive deep and find the inner you beneath your harsh words. You aren't that important.

The template for a human being can't be the world's most neurotic uptight middle class person. Real people have real feelings. If this is your baseline for how normal people should be you're just like Catholics having impossible moral standards, just to guarantee that everybody will feel ashamed of themselves for being sinners. I don't see how this is in any way beneficial to the world. It's not going to make the world a better place.

I don't hurl insults at people when I'm angry and drunk. But then I am middle-class. I am pretty repressed and emotionally controlled. I also have worked as a manager for most of my adult life. Losing control comes with a high cost for me. I also dance salsa on my free time. The type people who shout unacceptable slurs when angry are often the best dancers. I'm not a great dancer. I think there's a connection.

This extreme political correctness being upheld as the minimum basic standard for behaviour is so extreme it has to be about something else than making people behave better. I suspect it's yet another middle class conspiracy designed to shame the working class for daring to live a little. Don't you think that is what is going on?

Not using slurs is not "extreme political correctness", nor is it something only the "middle class" knows how to do. I've spent most of my life in poor neighborhoods, and believe it or not, I've known plenty of really decent people who both know how to dance and don't feel compelled to call each other by racial epithets. Shocking, I know. You must have been imagining that life in the slums looks exactly like your psychological id.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If you call a woman a "cunt", you don't deserve the benefit of a doubt for that either. What are you even on about?

It's your job not to present yourself as a bigoted asshole, not everyone else's job to dive deep and find the inner you beneath your harsh words. You aren't that important.

The template for a human being can't be the world's most neurotic uptight middle class person. Real people have real feelings. If this is your baseline for how normal people should be you're just like Catholics having impossible moral standards, just to guarantee that everybody will feel ashamed of themselves for being sinners. I don't see how this is in any way beneficial to the world. It's not going to make the world a better place.

I don't hurl insults at people when I'm angry and drunk. But then I am middle-class. I am pretty repressed and emotionally controlled. I also have worked as a manager for most of my adult life. Losing control comes with a high cost for me. I also dance salsa on my free time. The type people who shout unacceptable slurs when angry are often the best dancers. I'm not a great dancer. I think there's a connection.

This extreme political correctness being upheld as the minimum basic standard for behaviour is so extreme it has to be about something else than making people behave better. I suspect it's yet another middle class conspiracy designed to shame the working class for daring to live a little. Don't you think that is what is going on?

Not using slurs is not "extreme political correctness", nor is it something only the "middle class" knows how to do. I've spent most of my life in poor neighborhoods, and believe it or not, I've known plenty of really decent people who both know how to dance and don't feel compelled to call each other by racial epithets. Shocking, I know. You must have been imagining that life in the slums looks exactly like your psychological id.

I think the extreme enforcement of controlled speech we have now is extreme political correctness. I think it gets in the way of genuine discussions about race and racism.

I think racism is a big problem in the world. The fact that someone has learned to hide their racism with controlled speech isn't evidence that they aren't racist. Likewise I don't think you can be sure that everyone in the heat of the moment who yells a racist slur is a racist.

The main focus now of the left seems to be on hiding racism rather than solving it. I think it is extreme political correctness.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

That's not being treated differently. If someone is shouting in anger at him for a reason unrelated to race, what is, said is of less consequence than the fact its being shouted. Angry people say a lot of things they might later regret. Often angry people are just trying to push angry buttons in the other to provoke a reaction. Just anything that might hurt.

And why would the person shouting "nigger" at your friend think it might hurt? Because the person shouting it is a racist and thinks the word "nigger" is an insult.

Just change it up. Your friend isn't black, he's asian and Person A calls him a "nigger" in anger as an insult. Is Person A a racist? Yes, because he (a) thinks being a black person--aka, "nigger"-- is an insult and (b) is comparing your asian friend to being a black person by calling him "nigger" in anger.

Once again, "nigger" has no alternative meaning. It is a pejorative term that reduces and denigrates all black people to being subhuman. If I am calling you a "nigger" in anger, I am calling you a subhuman being. Your own skin color may not be full of melanin for it to nevertheless be racist for me to call you a nigger.

So, unless someone is calling your friend that as a tasteless joke and not in genuine anger, then, again, I don't see how it's not racist. I've said a lot of things in anger, but calling a black person (or anyone) "nigger" in anger would only reveal my perhaps here-to-fore latent racism.

This is rediculous IMHO. This is so damn snowflakey. If you think this is real offence I doubt you've ever had your feelings hurt.

WTF are you talking about? If I call you a "nigger" in anger then I am a racist (whether you are black or purple). The term itself is a racist term. It has no other meaning. Perhaps you are not aware of that, not being American, but I can assure you that if you ever called an American "nigger" in anger--particularly an African-American--not a single one would wait patiently for you to tell them it's like calling someone a "cunt" in England and hey, you're not a racist, just angry.

 

[Politesse]

Not using slurs is not "extreme political correctness", nor is it something only the "middle class" knows how to do. I've spent most of my life in poor neighborhoods, and believe it or not, I've known plenty of really decent people who both know how to dance and don't feel compelled to call each other by racial epithets. Shocking, I know. You must have been imagining that life in the slums looks exactly like your psychological id.

I think the extreme enforcement of controlled speech we have now is extreme political correctness. I think it gets in the way of genuine discussions about race and racism.

I think racism is a big problem in the world. The fact that someone has learned to hide their racism with controlled speech isn't evidence that they aren't racist. Likewise I don't think you can be sure that everyone in the heat of the moment who yells a racist slur is a racist.

The main focus now of the left seems to be on hiding racism rather than solving it. I think it is extreme political correctness.

Just to be clear, by "extreme enforcement of controlled speech", you mean that people get upset when you use racial slurs?

How would using that kind of language generate a "genuine discussion about race and racism"?

 

[DrZoidberg]

This is rediculous IMHO. This is so damn snowflakey. If you think this is real offence I doubt you've ever had your feelings hurt.

WTF are you talking about? If I call you a "nigger" in anger then I am a racist (whether you are black or purple). The term itself is a racist term. It has no other meaning. Perhaps you are not aware of that, not being American, but I can assure you that if you ever called an American "nigger" in anger--particularly an African-American--not a single one would wait patiently for you to tell them it's like calling someone a "cunt" in England and hey, you're not a racist, just angry.

That wasn't my point. My point is that sometimes angry people say things they might regret. I don't think the two terms are interchangeable.

And there's a lot of people who just haven't thought that hard about these things or how what they say can hurt others. I don't like forcing people to be woke. It's great if they are. Too bad if they're not

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

My point is that sometimes angry people say things they might regret.

That has nothing to do with whether or not "nigger" is an inherently racist term, but how in the world would your friend have been able to discern that from someone calling him a nigger in anger? Unless the situation was a friend of his was yelling at him, but that did not seem to be the situation from what you described and still would be an instance of someone using a known racist term to express anger at your friend.

And there's a lot of people who just haven't thought that hard about these things or how what they say can hurt others.

Maybe it's the cultural differences, but I find it hard to believe that anyone in the world does not yet know that calling someone a nigger in anger would not be hurtful or racist. The only way that could possibly be is out of sheer ignorance in regard to the term.

 

[DrZoidberg]

My point is that sometimes angry people say things they might regret.

That has nothing to do with whether or not "nigger" is an inherently racist term, but how in the world would your friend have been able to discern that from someone calling him a nigger in anger? Unless the situation was a friend of his was yelling at him, but that did not seem to be the situation from what you described and still would be an instance of someone using a known racist term to express anger at your friend.

He doesn't deny the things said were racist. He didn't think racism had in any way hampered his career. Granted that he is a scientist. Which perhaps is on the extreme end of, meritocratic fields in life. But even so he didn't feel he had been unjustly treated because he was black. My other black friend had another experience.

And there's a lot of people who just haven't thought that hard about these things or how what they say can hurt others.

Maybe it's the cultural differences, but I find it hard to believe that anyone in the world does not yet know that calling someone a nigger in anger would not be hurtful or racist. The only way that could possibly be is out of sheer ignorance in regard to the term.

You're missing the point. I didn't say they didn't understand the words were racist. They just might not understand how it might be received.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

You're missing the point.

Evidently so.

I didn't say they didn't understand the words were racist. They just might not understand how it might be received.

Well, again, I don't see how someone using a notoriously racist term--in anger no less--who understands what the word means, toward a person of that "race," could not also understand how it might be received. Nor do I think that is relevant, since the intent of the person using the term is the question, not how someone received it.

Iow, if I am calling a black person a nigger, then I am a racist. There's really no way to avoid that, other than certain special conditions that were not stipulated (e.g., if I am also black, but even that's complicated, or I am an ignorant child who does not understand the full history and weight of that term).

But I'm sure you'll agree we've wasted more than enough time on this, which was not my intent. I was genuinely confused by what you had written and I guess will just remain so.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You're missing the point.

Evidently so.

I didn't say they didn't understand the words were racist. They just might not understand how it might be received.

Well, again, I don't see how someone using a notoriously racist term--in anger no less--who understands what the word means, toward a person of that "race," could not also understand how it might be received. Nor do I think that is relevant, since the intent of the person using the term is the question, not how someone received it.

Iow, if I am calling a black person a nigger, then I am a racist. There's really no way to avoid that, other than certain special conditions that were not stipulated (e.g., if I am also black, but even that's complicated, or I am an ignorant child who does not understand the full history and weight of that term).

But I'm sure you'll agree we've wasted more than enough time on this, which was not my intent. I was genuinely confused by what you had written and I guess will just remain so.

I think you are too black and white in how you see the world. Everyone has their own perspective. With your way of seeing the world I see a risk of you just labelling everyone that you don't agree with as racist.

Its important to keep in mind that the middle class uses convoluted virtue signalling as class markers. We use initiated politically correct language as a tool to exclude and oppress the working class, and protect our elevated status. The middle class has always been doing this shit. Thats what your insistence on correct word usage sounds to me. Either people use the words you approve of or you deem them racist, which today is equivalent with being 100% evil

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Evidently so.



Well, again, I don't see how someone using a notoriously racist term--in anger no less--who understands what the word means, toward a person of that "race," could not also understand how it might be received. Nor do I think that is relevant, since the intent of the person using the term is the question, not how someone received it.

Iow, if I am calling a black person a nigger, then I am a racist. There's really no way to avoid that, other than certain special conditions that were not stipulated (e.g., if I am also black, but even that's complicated, or I am an ignorant child who does not understand the full history and weight of that term).

But I'm sure you'll agree we've wasted more than enough time on this, which was not my intent. I was genuinely confused by what you had written and I guess will just remain so.

I think you are too black and white in how you see the world. Everyone has their own perspective. With your way of seeing the world I see a risk of you just labelling everyone that you don't agree with as racist.

Utter nonsense.

Thats what your insistence on correct word usage sounds to me.

Wtf are you talking about?

Either people use the words you approve of or you deem them racist, which today is equivalent with being 100% evil

The entire world deems "nigger" to be a racist term. You, in fact, are literally the first person in my 54 years traveling the globe that has ever even intimated the idea that "nigger" has some alternative meaning, yet you have not once articulated what that could possibly be. And I am not the only person itt who has questioned wtf you're talking about.

Are you trolling?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Utter nonsense.

Thats what your insistence on correct word usage sounds to me.

Wtf are you talking about?

Either people use the words you approve of or you deem them racist, which today is equivalent with being 100% evil

The entire world deems "nigger" to be a racist term. You, in fact, are literally the first person in my 54 years traveling the globe that has ever even intimated the idea that "nigger" has some alternative meaning, yet you have not once articulated what that could possibly be. And I am not the only person itt who has questioned wtf you're talking about.

Are you trolling?

Words aren't inherently racist or not. People are. Context and meaning matters. Why words are said matters. We're living in a world where words are routinely taken out of context.

No. Just saying nigger doesn't make you a racist. You did in the post I am respondimg to

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Insipid.

 

[Politesse]

Utter nonsense.



Wtf are you talking about?



The entire world deems "nigger" to be a racist term. You, in fact, are literally the first person in my 54 years traveling the globe that has ever even intimated the idea that "nigger" has some alternative meaning, yet you have not once articulated what that could possibly be. And I am not the only person itt who has questioned wtf you're talking about.

Are you trolling?

Words aren't inherently racist or not. People are. Context and meaning matters. Why words are said matters. We're living in a world where words are routinely taken out of context.

No. Just saying nigger doesn't make you a racist. You did in the post I am respondimg to

If the context is "a person using a racial pejorative to describe a person of minority race", that person is a goddamned racist. This is in no way complicated or confusing to understand.