• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

White woman tells biracial family to ‘get out of Berkeley’ and then plays the victim when cops show up

]

Well, I don't rightly know exactly.

I wouldn't include "hatred" as a necessary condition. One can be racist and not in fact hate. Of course, a racist that hates would still be a racist. So, in that regard, that would not be a limiting factor.
So, wait, are you trying to define racism?
Or are you trying to categorize the reasons, motivations that might drive racism?

And is it any less racism if someone gets poorly treated because of hatred, dislike, religious stricture, nationalism, fear, or officious policy?

I mean, even if you're embezzling for a good cause [money goes to charity, stealing from evil corporation, mom had cancer], it's still embezzling.
The court may take it into account for sentencing, but it doesn't change the fact of what you did...
 
Well, I don't rightly know exactly.

I wouldn't include "hatred" as a necessary condition. One can be racist and not in fact hate. Of course, a racist that hates would still be a racist. So, in that regard, that would not be a limiting factor.

I think I would include dislike. That seems like a reasonable inclusion. Of course, when I do that, many examples of purported racism is eliminated. For instance, if an action incidentally yields a negative result towards a race, any genuine lack of dislike towards the affected race would eliminate racism. I'm sure that wouldn't go over too well, but the point is to have a semblance of traditional meaning.

I think it must be a natural inclination to broaden the scope of a words meaning. I wouldn't say I've went boating just because I bought a boat, but "boat" is the root word, so if it was subjected to extremism, it would be manipulated--much how "atheist" has been and subsequently evolved. Some people think that a lie of omission is a kind of lie. It's not. It's a kind of deception. Perhaps equally as cringe worthy, but we cannot always go by the root word alone to associate meaning at our whim.

Racism includes certain things, but to act as though every facet imaginable is encompassed is to broaden current usage beyond its original scope. "Racism" is being used so broadly it's almost beyond belief. People even joke about how everything is racist. No, it's not. It's just an egregious use of it.

Consider a person that has no qualms with another race. Back in the day, that person wouldn't have been considered a racist since there's no genuine dislike of a member of that race. That's pretty narrow, but if the definition is narrow, then for illustrative purposes, a person that has other race related issues (good or bad), the person would not be a racist per se but be something else.

If Republicans do underhanded things that affect Democratic voters, it seems disingenuous to say the target is race in times when the Democrats are black. If it negatively effects blacks, and it's because they're black, then that's one thing, but if it's because they're Democrats, that's something else entirely.

I know this is falling on deaf ears, but I just think the accusations of racism must rise in an atmosphere where everything remotely related to race is included. Surely it's a bit broader than my quick stab at it, but I'm a firm believer that the meaning of words is a function of something more than what people want them to mean.
First of all, thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response, I do appreciate this.


I do have some issues though. The gist here, is that you feel it should all be based on intent? That's a bit weird it seems to me, because intent is actually a very difficult thing to determine let alone prove. Especially when dealing with a social taboo, which racism is. Suppose one tried to define, say, pedophilia by intent; almost everyone accused of it could insist verbally that they meant no harm, even honestly believe themselves that they meant no harm, while still having committed the same objective crime through their speech or actions. It doesn't really mean anything to say "I didn't mean it that way", if the practical outcome of your choices is the same whether you did or not. For instance, this family was terrorized by a drunk person regardless of whether they believe that she disliked them, though in this case it is pretty clear that she did, since unlike in many similar cases, she said as much outright.

I do not actually think that dislike should come into things at all, honestly. It's just too fuzzy a concept. Do I "genuinely dislike" someone because I honestly believe they are mentally inferior due to their skin color, for instance? I may well "like" someone without respecting them, or without hiring them, or without wanting my daughter to marry them. Should I get off scot free simply because I can make some sort of case for "liking" them? I "like" my cat a great deal, but I wouldn't consider her to have the same rights or be due the same moral considerations as a fellow human. This would be true even if I honestly convinced myself that I consider her an equal; my actions would still out me at the end of the day, or at least the next time I stuff her in the kennel before going on a business trip. I guess my point here is, someone who earnestly believes in racist ideology doesn't need to dislike anyone personally to be discriminatory on the basis of racist pseudoscience.

And frankly the whole thing starts to sound like thought policing when you put it that way. I honestly do not care whether people like each other. You can dislike me all you like, as long as you treat me equally and without prejudice. Your thoughts are your own, it is your actions and statements that affect me, so they are the only things I really care about.
 
So, wait, are you trying to define racism?
Well, not exactly. More like an analysis. I believe the dictionary is the authority for lexical usage. For instance, if I wanted to know what "knowledge" means, as used by fluent speakers, I could consult a dictionary. If, however, I wanted a more exact grasp for what it entails, I might consult a philosophy professor on the prevailing theories seeking to identify necessary and sufficient conditions.

Or are you trying to categorize the reasons, motivations that might drive racism?
That's tricky. I speculate that some are operating under a biased understanding of what racism is. My contention (that I'm testing the waters with) is that what is sometimes recognized as and considered as racism may not in fact be racism at all--but maybe something just as ugly. If I'm right (probably not) but if a condition of racism (actual racism itself) is not met, then it's not racism. See, if a particular reason or motivation is an integral part of racism, then those have to be separated from those reasons or motivations that drive racism. We can't have a reason for something be the something itself. That's my problem. If it's ugly and race is a factor, that shouldn't be a sufficient condition if (just if) there are necessary conditions that actually exclude something as being racist, regardless of how ugly something might be. I think this is just going to go the way of "terrorism." Some words just become a free for all.

And is it any less racism if someone gets poorly treated because of hatred, dislike, religious stricture, nationalism, fear, or officious policy?
While I think there are varying degrees involved, my answer is no. If an act is racist, then trivially true as it'll be until the end, a racist act is a racist act. I'm just hesitant to acknowledge as a blanket prejudgement that all negatives with a hint of race is therefore racism.

I'm still taken back by the notion that someone (without a smidgen of thought about race) who makes a decision that truly and genuinely had no idea that a particular race would be negatively effected is racism. Hell, for that matter, even had they known and done it anyway, then there's the issue of true motivation. If you have no desire to target another race with a decision but circumstances just so happen to negatively effect them, attributing that as racist seems to be a bastardization of its past common usage. Of course, now a days, it's run amuck.

I mean, even if you're embezzling for a good cause [money goes to charity, stealing from evil corporation, mom had cancer], it's still embezzling.
The court may take it into account for sentencing, but it doesn't change the fact of what you did...
When I wrote that example, I wasn't trying to highlight a parallel--just that there are terms that encompass others but not inversely. Yes, embezzling is embezzling--regardless of why.

I'm trying to place racism on par with embezzling while I see that others are stuck in having it on par with stealing. It sounds to me like it would sound to you if I caught you lying and called you a thief. Yes, both are wrong, (A and B are both C). I see racism as A while others see it as C, so they claim B is racist while I don't.

Things like being against interracial marriage would not be racist. It would involve a bigoted view regarding race, but only if that's a condition of racism is it then racism. You might judge it to be equally as bad (or maybe even more egregious), but if it so happens that a necessary condition of racism isn't met by having such a position, then the issue would be settled: not racism--no matter what views or thoughts anyone FELT the word covered.

It's like the term was once covering a particular shade of bigotry and now has blossomed to cover every shade imaginable--all because the word "race" is in "racism."
 
Well, I don't rightly know exactly.

I wouldn't include "hatred" as a necessary condition. One can be racist and not in fact hate. Of course, a racist that hates would still be a racist. So, in that regard, that would not be a limiting factor.

I think I would include dislike. That seems like a reasonable inclusion. Of course, when I do that, many examples of purported racism is eliminated. For instance, if an action incidentally yields a negative result towards a race, any genuine lack of dislike towards the affected race would eliminate racism. I'm sure that wouldn't go over too well, but the point is to have a semblance of traditional meaning.

I think it must be a natural inclination to broaden the scope of a words meaning. I wouldn't say I've went boating just because I bought a boat, but "boat" is the root word, so if it was subjected to extremism, it would be manipulated--much how "atheist" has been and subsequently evolved. Some people think that a lie of omission is a kind of lie. It's not. It's a kind of deception. Perhaps equally as cringe worthy, but we cannot always go by the root word alone to associate meaning at our whim.

Racism includes certain things, but to act as though every facet imaginable is encompassed is to broaden current usage beyond its original scope. "Racism" is being used so broadly it's almost beyond belief. People even joke about how everything is racist. No, it's not. It's just an egregious use of it.

Consider a person that has no qualms with another race. Back in the day, that person wouldn't have been considered a racist since there's no genuine dislike of a member of that race. That's pretty narrow, but if the definition is narrow, then for illustrative purposes, a person that has other race related issues (good or bad), the person would not be a racist per se but be something else.

If Republicans do underhanded things that affect Democratic voters, it seems disingenuous to say the target is race in times when the Democrats are black. If it negatively effects blacks, and it's because they're black, then that's one thing, but if it's because they're Democrats, that's something else entirely.

I know this is falling on deaf ears, but I just think the accusations of racism must rise in an atmosphere where everything remotely related to race is included. Surely it's a bit broader than my quick stab at it, but I'm a firm believer that the meaning of words is a function of something more than what people want them to mean.
First of all, thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response, I do appreciate this.


I do have some issues though. The gist here, is that you feel it should all be based on intent? That's a bit weird it seems to me, because intent is actually a very difficult thing to determine let alone prove. Especially when dealing with a social taboo, which racism is. Suppose one tried to define, say, pedophilia by intent; almost everyone accused of it could insist verbally that they meant no harm, even honestly believe themselves that they meant no harm, while still having committed the same objective crime through their speech or actions. It doesn't really mean anything to say "I didn't mean it that way", if the practical outcome of your choices is the same whether you did or not. For instance, this family was terrorized by a drunk person regardless of whether they believe that she disliked them, though in this case it is pretty clear that she did, since unlike in many similar cases, she said as much outright.

I do not actually think that dislike should come into things at all, honestly. It's just too fuzzy a concept. Do I "genuinely dislike" someone because I honestly believe they are mentally inferior due to their skin color, for instance? I may well "like" someone without respecting them, or without hiring them, or without wanting my daughter to marry them. Should I get off scot free simply because I can make some sort of case for "liking" them? I "like" my cat a great deal, but I wouldn't consider her to have the same rights or be due the same moral considerations as a fellow human. This would be true even if I honestly convinced myself that I consider her an equal; my actions would still out me at the end of the day, or at least the next time I stuff her in the kennel before going on a business trip. I guess my point here is, someone who earnestly believes in racist ideology doesn't need to dislike anyone personally to be discriminatory on the basis of racist pseudoscience.

And frankly the whole thing starts to sound like thought policing when you put it that way. I honestly do not care whether people like each other. You can dislike me all you like, as long as you treat me equally and without prejudice. Your thoughts are your own, it is your actions and statements that affect me, so they are the only things I really care about.
I need to digest that.

Thank you.
 
I think the word itself has suffered from vocabularic extremism and is now so broad and encapsulating that most any thought, action, or consequences with a negative tie to even a consideration of race is being considered racist. It's a word begging for distinctions. We have words like "embezzlement" that is a narrower form of the term "theft." With "racism" so egregiously broadened at personal emotional whim with no consideration for meaning, some distinctions with definitional boundaries might help alleviate some of this one size fits all mentality. Heck, maybe it's not racism but not only wrong but worst than racism. Why minimize it by calling it racist? There needs to be clear cut necessary conditions so that we can weed out the things that we might otherwise call racism.

Yes. It's not just "racism", but words for offensive things routinely are being used to apply to things only vaguely related to the actual sin.

Just because this is clearly wrong doesn't make it racism.
 
First of all, thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response, I do appreciate this.
:)

I do have some issues though. The gist here, is that you feel it should all be based on intent?
I think I might need to be more specific. We have thoughts, and that's on the one hand. We also undertake actions, and that's on the other hand. Whether one is a racist has to do with thoughts--the first hand. I ask, "what's in his heart?" We can have a silent racist among us that types not a word. Whether we know one is a racist is not (in the moment) all that important. The truth remains steadfast and stands wholly independent of what we know or can prove.

Shifting now to the second hand. Care not a whit about what one may think, some might say. Okay, but be careful not to be too quick on the trigger when accusing someone of being a racist. Oh yes, hold people accountable for their actions. If a harm has come upon a black man at the hands of a white, hold him (and hold him tightly) to answer for the harm to which he has committed, but attribute it not to racism--especially when no race related ill-will predicated the actions.

That's a bit weird it seems to me, because intent is actually a very difficult thing to determine let alone prove. Especially when dealing with a social taboo, which racism is. Suppose one tried to define, say, pedophilia by intent; almost everyone accused of it could insist verbally that they meant no harm, even honestly believe themselves that they meant no harm, while still having committed the same objective crime through their speech or actions. It doesn't really mean anything to say "I didn't mean it that way", if the practical outcome of your choices is the same whether you did or not.

I know no one likes homosexuality and pedophilia mentioned in the same sentence, but let me compare and contrast for further illumination. A particular man attracted to the same sex that never once acted on his attraction to other men proposed to a woman, got married, had kids, and suppressed his desires--and did so until the day he died. That man that died was a homosexual, as it was his attraction (and not his acting on his attraction) that has him properly labeled as such.

A pedophile that secretly and successfully keeps discreet his sexual attraction to children remains a trusted member of society. We're not going to punish him for any wrongful deeds towards children precisely because he has committed no physical misdeeds. Yet, just like the homosexual, the pedophile is just what he his, not because of actions that we care about but because of what's in his heart.

Prevailing studies among the educated masses (and some common sense to boot) reflect the opinion that while acting on homosexual urges are not harmful to society, acting on pedophelic urges are, so while we condemn the pedophile not for his thoughts in silence but his acts upon children, we (well, some) condemn those that condemn homosexuals who outwardly act upon their urges.

Again, we must still be careful. A pedophile leaned over and with his hand braced upon a seat to keep his balance, and in that instant, a little girl sat her bottom down upon his hand. God help him if his inadvertent mistake is taken the wrong way should he decide to openly admit his attraction. Same with racists who genuinely dislikes blacks yet with full deliberation remains unbiased in his daily duties--especially if his actions appear race retaliatory in nature.

For instance, this family was terrorized by a drunk person regardless of whether they believe that she disliked them, though in this case it is pretty clear that she did, since unlike in many similar cases, she said as much outright.
If what she did was wrong, then hold her accountable--even if it wasn't racism. The issue, however, is whether her actions stem from a racist attitude. One beef I have is in declaring acts against minorities as racist when there is purity of heart, but it also extends further: when there is negative thought, and if it's concerning race, it should be limited to the kinds of thought that reflects what racism used to be.

If I harm someone and do so because he's black, that's different than harming someone that is black. Yeah, the punch to the face hurts as much, but the basis for the hit matters.

I do not actually think that dislike should come into things at all, honestly. It's just too fuzzy a concept. Do I "genuinely dislike" someone because I honestly believe they are mentally inferior due to their skin color, for instance? I may well "like" someone without respecting them, or without hiring them, or without wanting my daughter to marry them.
Good point. Damn good point. Getting past this might prove monumental. First, let me dig a hole and say that skin color is just a visually observable proxy for the real underlying issue. Racism is about race; it's not everything about it, but it certainly pertains to an extent. Racism has to do with cultural predisposition. There may be racists who speak as if skin color is the thing that matters. I don't think so. I think it's the things that prevails in thought regarding cultural characteristics. But regardless, not hiring someone precisely because they're black (or rather because they belong to a member of that race) is an act, a prejudicial act.

The other two are not acts, but by my own account, it's what's in the heart that signals whether an act based upon it is racist or not. That being said, there's still the nagging issue as to whether or not that's sufficient. If a white man refuses to accept that his white daughter wants to date a black man, and if he truly has absolutely no issue with blacks so long as they stick to their own kind, then this brings us full circle to needing precision to the conditions that determine the presence of racism. The position I've been putting forward (still testing the waters, so to speak) is that racism isn't just any bigoted position regarding race. The prevailing new age perspective, apparently, is that all negative thoughts and negative consequences are worthy of being deemed racist. I'm just somewhat hesitant, somewhat resistent, and somewhat apprehensive to caving to such an idealized all-encompassing view that allows too much in. But yes, I presume it's inline with newer thoughts on the matter, kind of like how old definitions of "atheist" were narrower in scope but now include weak atheists.

Should I get off scot free simply because I can make some sort of case for "liking" them? I "like" my cat a great deal, but I wouldn't consider her to have the same rights or be due the same moral considerations as a fellow human. This would be true even if I honestly convinced myself that I consider her an equal; my actions would still out me at the end of the day, or at least the next time I stuff her in the kennel before going on a business trip. I guess my point here is, someone who earnestly believes in racist ideology doesn't need to dislike anyone personally to be discriminatory on the basis of racist pseudoscience.

And frankly the whole thing starts to sound like thought policing when you put it that way. I honestly do not care whether people like each other. You can dislike me all you like, as long as you treat me equally and without prejudice. Your thoughts are your own, it is your actions and statements that affect me, so they are the only things I really care about.
Oh goodness no. Punish people for what they do, not what they think; however, if I treat you badly and because it's out of predjudice, that's especially egregious.
 
A bigoted view of race isn't racism.

And the problem is Other People offering their own definitions of racism...
 
What about tribalism in actual or perceived lean times or because of long standing ethnic tensions. Serbians and Bosnians for example. I doubt that Bosnians think Serbs are dumber, maybe more morally depraved.
 
Here are two definitions that I can support:
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
 
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Why the and? And the extra clause? It is the easiest part to deny, and the least relevant in my opinion. I see no reason not to consider anyone and everyone who accepts the pseudoscience of "race" as a racist, just the same as people who believe in a special creation are creationists, those who believe in government conspiracies are conspiracy theorists, etc.
 
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Why the and? And the extra clause? It is the easiest part to deny, and the least relevant in my opinion. I see no reason not to consider anyone and everyone who accepts the pseudoscience of "race" as a racist, just the same as people who believe in a special creation are creationists, those who believe in government conspiracies are conspiracy theorists, etc.
I don't know. I thought that was peculiar too. It's a direct quote.

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Racism&submit.x=0&submit.y=0
 
Back
Top Bottom