Who Agrees Fourth Wave Feminism is Toxic Femininity And Should Be Abolished?

[Toni]

He was criticising authoritarianism and totalitarianism . What difference does it make whether it is supposedly ‘right’ or ‘ left?’

Agreed! And it is refreshing to see you acknowledge that authoritarianism can come from the left or the right. We should be on guard against both.

So you decided to wake up and read something? I won’t hold my breath that this will take.

 

[Metaphor]

Do women have the right to define masculinity?

"Feminism" is not "femininity".

Now either you believe feminism is about equal rights, in which case you have to fucking start with the equal right to participate in the narrative, or you don't believe it and you think women have special epistemological privilege to define a particular word.

But also, are you joking? Feminists define masculinity continuously (usually as toxic), they are not shy about it, and they do not restrain themselves from advising all of us how to be rid of it.

Further, female feminists appear to believe they know and understand what happens between men where no women are present.

To define what men’s rights and the men’s rights movement encompasses? Means? How it’s defined? Terms?,

Yes, women have as much right to be men's rights advocates and activists as men. I want more women to be men's rights advocates.

 

[Toni]

Do women have the right to define masculinity?

"Feminism" is not "femininity".

Now either you believe feminism is about equal rights, in which case you have to fucking start with the equal right to participate in the narrative, or you don't believe it and you think women have special epistemological privilege to define a particular word.

Nope.

But also, are you joking? Feminists define masculinity continuously (usually as toxic), they are not shy about it, and they do not restrain themselves from advising all of us how to be rid of it.

Some people have defined and use the term toxic masculinity but that is not the same thing as masculinity. The term is not limited to use by feminists or by women, fwiw.

Further, female feminists appear to believe they know and understand what happens between men where no women are present.

That must be one of those things they forgot to point out in the feminists hate men handbook when they issued me mine.

In other words: WTF?

To define what men’s rights and the men’s rights movement encompasses? Means? How it’s defined? Terms?,

Yes, women have as much right to be men's rights advocates and activists as men. I want more women to be men's rights advocates.

Defining men's rights and defining what the mens' rights movement encompasses is not advocating for men.

If you want women to be men's rights advocates, you should embrace feminism.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Leftists believe that war with the Kurds against Turkey will bring peace.

bullshit. I believe NOT WITHDRAWING would have maintained the peace. I do not believe in waging a war against a NATO ally.

You just make shit up.

They believe people are free today, but also enslaved by white privilege.

cite? He asked, fully knowing there was none.

And they believe ignorance about things (there's more than 2 genders) is strength.

disagreeing with your absolutist stance does not equal my being ignorant of your beliefs.

So yes, it is absolutely on the far left.

You have no idea what youre talking about, do you?

 

[Metaphor]

Nope.

"Nope", what? You incoherently compared men defining feminism to women defining masculinity, and this is your defence? The word "nope"?

Some people have defined and use the term toxic masculinity but that is not the same thing as masculinity. The term is not limited to use by feminists or by women, fwiw.

So, we've established that feminists, including female feminists, can and do talk about masculinity and define it on their terms and understanding.

So, back to your original objection: why don't men get to define feminism and or femininity?

That must be one of those things they forgot to point out in the feminists hate men handbook when they issued me mine.

In other words: WTF?

I would have hoped even a feminist had the cognitive wherewithal to realise that women have no fucking idea what goes on behind closed doors among men. Women don't experience the private behaviour of men. So how can female feminists hope to shape a culture they have no experience of?

If you want women to be men's rights advocates, you should embrace feminism.

Holy shit.

First of all, "women" and "feminists" are not the same group.

Feminists routinely oppose any discussion of men's issues that is not on "feminist" terms. See, for example, feminist obstruction of men's issues groups on campuses.

Men and women have the right to reject feminist control of the narrative around men's issues.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

But for men to...

Here comes the toxic side of Feminism. Don't be sexist Toni. It doesn't matter if its men who say this or that. Its what people say that matters, not their gender. And you don't get to ignore what I wrote to instead smear me either. Its not about me. Feminism is a word that has multiple meanings, and the most common meaning of the term is one that keeps people, including most women from calling themselves Feminists. That's a reality.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do women have the right to define masculinity? To define what men’s rights and the men’s rights movement encompasses? Means? How it’s defined? Terms?,

Yes. Yes they do. People define terms and find common understanding of what terms mean. Women have every right to do so, just like men. Don't you believe in equality for women Toni? As for women for the men's right movement? They have just as much right to speak on it as men do. Have you listened to any of Karen Straughan's speeches?

 

[Arctish]

True. But "fuck the sea otters" does mean "fuck the sea otters". "Why can't we hate sea otters?"

Did you actually read that "Why Can't We Hate Men?" article or are you basing your argument on what you imagine it contained? Because by the end of the third paragraph the author had said why.

It kind of does if you enact anti-domestic violence initiatives or build safety shelters and exclude male victims from them.

Perhaps anti-domestic violence initiatives in Canada exclude male victims, but the ones in the US don't.

Recognition of domestic violence against males has been lagging but as it's prevalence becomes apparent, anti-domestic violence organizations in the US are expanding to provide the needed services. More importantly for this discussion, the people spearheading the movement to build shelters for male victims of domestic violence have largely been the same ones who led the movement to build shelters for female victims. Here's the group that opened the first shelter for battered men in Texas. Here's the organization that opened the first one in the country. A little digging reveals they both have deep Feminist roots.

Feminism is a subset of Human Rights advocacy, not something apart from it, and certainly not in opposition to it.

Some who call themselves Feminists are this. Others who claim that label may think they are this or claim to be this, but are actually quite the opposite.

Can you provide any examples? And are these 'opposite' ones common or well known or representative of a persistent strain of thought within the larger movement? Because if all you've got is an extremist or two, so what? Every movement has those.

 

[Arctish]

Feminists routinely oppose any discussion of men's issues that is not on "feminist" terms. See, for example, feminist obstruction of men's issues groups on campuses.

Can you provide some examples? Which men's issues groups were obstructed? Because if you're talking about PUAs or some such, I suspect they were obstructed because they're predatory misogynist assholes, not because they advocate for men's rights.

 

[Metaphor]

Feminists routinely oppose any discussion of men's issues that is not on "feminist" terms. See, for example, feminist obstruction of men's issues groups on campuses.

Can you provide some examples? Which men's issues groups were obstructed? Because if you're talking about PUAs or some such, I suspect they were obstructed because they're predatory misogynist assholes, not because they advocate for men's rights.

Sure: take Ryerson University
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel-banned-from-campus-groups-fight-back

Ryerson’s Men’s Issues Awareness Society (MIAS) was created in 2015 to deal with issues that disproportionately affect men and boys, “such as higher rates of suicide, homelessness, workplace injuries and failure in school.” Nearly half of MIAS’ members are women.

But the club has repeatedly been denied recognition by the Ryerson Students’ Union. The RSU claimed the group could cause an “unsafe” environment for women on campus and has purported links to anti-feminist groups, which it denies. The biggest strike against them, it seems, is that they haven’t drunk the Kool-Aid: they were told it was an RSU requirement to acknowledge the “systemic privilege that men have.”

“They have to acknowledge there’s a systemic suppression of women?” the judge asked incredulously.

He was told that they must.

“Isn’t there something wrong in making someone take an oath on what they believe or don’t believe?” Perrel asked. “Isn’t there something offensive requiring someone to acknowledge someone else’s belief systems?”

There certainly is.

On Oct. 27, 2015, MIAS was informed its application for club status had been rejected.

Or take when the University of York shut down International Men's Day plans after outrage from some staff and students
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...-of-york-cancels-international-mens-day-event

Feminists have near-total control of universities across the Western world (and that was true even twenty years ago when I got my undergraduate degree). Feminism also has a choke-hold on the public narrative about issues faced by men, and like any group with power, they're not giving it up without a fight.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do a google on "women's shelters". You'll get hundreds of hits. Now, do one on "men's shelters". You'll get mostly hits about generic homeless shelters, and even many women's shelters.

Now, check out our local men's shelter (yes ONE) here in Toronto, and you get this: https://menandfamilies.org/

A website about setting up a shelter for abused men. Who fund raised and organized so it could exist? CAFE. That's the same group that the toxic feminists chant "MRA Go away!" at and the one that Chanty Binx's group famously pulled the fire alarm at. "Sexist! Racist! Anti-Gay! MRA Go away!". CAFE's big crime? That they support men as well as women when treated unfairly due to gender. They fully support the equal rights of women. There is no mention of race or sexual orientation from them at all.

Or consider when Cassie Jaye released her movie about MRAs, "Red Pill" and all the hate protests that got from "Feminists" who either never actually watched the film or were dishonest about it in their hatred of male victims who dare speak up.

I dare you to actually watch her TED talk, which is only 15 minutes. It shows her impressions as she made the film. It may not be what you expect, at all.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY[/youtube]

Also as Metaphor pointed out, try to talk about unfair treatment regarding either gender, without doing so within the framework of "patriarchy", and you'll get attacked quite viciously by "Feminists".

 

[Arctish]

Do a google on "women's shelters". You'll get hundreds of hits. Now, do one on "men's shelters". You'll get mostly hits about generic homeless shelters, and even many women's shelters.

I already said that recognition of domestic violence against men was slow in coming and that now people are realizing how prevalent it is, shelters for male victims are being built. It will take some time for places that provide those services to catch up to the need for them.

Now, check out our local men's shelter (yes ONE) here in Toronto, and you get this: https://menandfamilies.org/

A website about setting up a shelter for abused men. Who fund raised and organized so it could exist? CAFE. That's the same group that the toxic feminists chant "MRA Go away!" at and the one that Chanty Binx's group famously pulled the fire alarm at. "Sexist! Racist! Anti-Gay! MRA Go away!". CAFE's big crime? That they support men as well as women when treated unfairly due to gender. They fully support the equal rights of women. There is no mention of race or sexual orientation from them at all.

Or consider when Cassie Jaye released her movie about MRAs, "Red Pill" and all the hate protests that got from "Feminists" who either never actually watched the film or were dishonest about it in their hatred of male victims who dare speak up.

I dare you to actually watch her TED talk, which is only 15 minutes. It shows her impressions as she made the film. It may not be what you expect, at all.

You dare me to check out a source? Seriously?

You, who refused to listen to what Chanty Binx was saying because you didn't like the way she was saying it, but keep bringing up as an example of someone who refuses to listen to others? You, who didn't even watch the Sargon of Akkad video you posted in support of your criticism of Anita Sarkeesian's videos, which you also didn't watch, while I not only watched them, I provided you the timestamp and context of specific statements you were quoting?

Tell you what, Jolly: how about you watch that video of Cassie Jaye's TED talk again, take her advice about listening to your 'enemies' to heart, and then watch Chanty Binx reading from her list. When you've done that and can tell me the specific issues on which Jaye and Binx completely agree with MRAs, then we'll talk.

Also as Metaphor pointed out, try to talk about unfair treatment regarding either gender, without doing so within the framework of "patriarchy", and you'll get attacked quite viciously by "Feminists".

I've done it plenty of times and was never attacked, 'viciously' or otherwise. Not even when people thought I was male. I have been challenged to explain my reasoning and justify my conclusions, but that's what discussion forums like this one are all about.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Tell you what, Jolly: how about you watch that video of assie Jaye's TED talk again, take her advice about listening to your 'enemies' to heart, and then watch Chanty Binx reading from her list.

You mean that list she tried to read to attendees at the CAFE event that she and her friends had moments before shut down by pulling the fire alarm after chanting at them that they are sexist racist and anti-gay, an event she was invited to politely attend and ask civil questions at? An event that was in no way shape or form sexist much less racist or anti-gay, which she would have seen had she bothered to actually look into it at all? The Chanty Binx that pretended to care about suicidal men after singing "cry me a river" to them? That she pretended to care about custody double standards and false paternity claims and domestic abuse against men, but only by insisting that these are part of "patriarchy" and the fault of men who deserved everything they got? Why would ANYONE take that lady seriously?

It's like when Richard Spencer says he isn't at all racist. Binx was a prime example of Feminsits seeking not to help MRAs on men's issues, but to shut them down. Her actions spoke louder than her very rude words.

Actually maybe that comparison is unfair to Spencer. As far as I know Spencer never shut down a BLM event by pulling a fire alarm and doesn't chant irrelevant accusations of sexism or anti-homosexuality at people who have not said anything gender or sexuality related.

 

[Arctish]

Tell you what, Jolly: how about you watch that video of assie Jaye's TED talk again, take her advice about listening to your 'enemies' to heart, and then watch Chanty Binx reading from her list.

You mean that list she tried to read to attendees at the CAFE event that she and her friends had moments before shut down by pulling the fire alarm after chanting at them that they are sexist racist and anti-gay, an event she was invited to politely attend and ask civil questions at? An event that was in no way shape or form sexist much less racist or anti-gay, which she would have seen had she bothered to actually look into it at all? The Chanty Binx that pretended to care about suicidal men after singing "cry me a river" to them? That she pretended to care about custody double standards and false paternity claims and domestic abuse against men, but only by insisting that these are part of "patriarchy" and the fault of men who deserved everything they got? Why would ANYONE take that lady seriously?

It's like when Richard Spencer says he isn't at all racist. Binx was a prime example of Feminsits seeking not to help MRAs on men's issues, but to shut them down. Her actions spoke louder than her very rude words.

So did you put aside your preconceptions and negative views about your 'enemies' as Jaye urges people to do in her TED talk, and actually listen to what Chanty Binx was saying, or not?

It sounds like you didn't and want to justify that choice.

I haven't watched The Red Pill yet, but I'll probably get to it tomorrow since it's now part of this discussion. Should be interesting.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Yes. I did. I explained it to you above. She pretends to care about men's issues. She even says men should advocate for those issues and just not attack women in doing so. She says this after she specifically targeted and shut down that CAFE event with her smears, an event that was exactly what she pretends she would be ok with, and a group (CAFE) that has always been open to feminist speakers and has plenty of female members. Her initial reaction to being asked about mens issues is "cry me a river" followed up with insisting that mens issues are not due to feminism or held in place by it (not an allegation anybody at CAFE made, but a point she disproves with her own actions).

As Cassie says, MRAs are consistently presumed to be anti-woman, but rarely actually are. Feminists frequently and almost universally react to MRA issues being raised as hostility towards women regardless of what the MRAs actually say. Cassie herself was widely attacked for making this film and it was declared by many feminists (who likely never watched it) as misogynist propaganda.

As Metaphor pointed out, Ryerson continues to deny a men's issues group because they presume (with no basis whatsoever) that it must by its very nature pose a threat to women.

As much as Feminists may want to think Feminism primarily stands for equality, it very often seeks to oppose it.

 

[Arctish]

Yes. I did. I explained it to you above. She pretends to care about men's issues. She even says men should advocate for those issues and just not attack women in doing so.

She "pretends" to care about men's issues? What makes you doubt her sincerity when she composed that list of common ground Feminists and MRAs share?

She says this after she specifically targeted and shut down that CAFE event with her smears, an event that was exactly what she pretends she would be ok with, and a group (CAFE) that has always been open to feminist speakers and has plenty of female members.

She shut the event down? With smears? Bullshit.

Her initial reaction to being asked about mens issues is "cry me a river" followed up with insisting that mens issues are not due to feminism or held in place by it (not an allegation anybody at CAFE made, but a point she disproves with her own actions).

Incorrect. That "cry me a river" was very late in the recorded part of the back-and-forth on the sidewalk, and the recorded part ( or at least the part making the rounds on the internet) did not include the beginning of the exchange. Her initial reaction in the posted video was frustration that people kept interrupting her as she read her list of concerns Feminists and MRAs share that, in her opinion, they should be working together to address.

I don't think you put aside your preconceptions and negative views and actually listened to her.

As Cassie says, MRAs are consistently presumed to be anti-woman, but rarely actually are. Feminists frequently and almost universally react to MRA issues being raised as hostility towards women regardless of what the MRAs actually say. Cassie herself was widely attacked for making this film and it was declared by many feminists (who likely never watched it) as misogynist propaganda.

As Metaphor pointed out, Ryerson continues to deny a men's issues group because they presume (with no basis whatsoever) that it must by its very nature pose a threat to women.

I've been looking into that incident, and there's more to it than that one article indicated. Apparently some of the content on the MIAS Facebook page was a factor. Also, I can't find that alleged quote from the judge anywhere else. And he ruled in favor of Ryerson, so there's that.

As much as Feminists may want to think Feminism primarily stands for equality, it very often seeks to oppose it.

Do you have any other examples besides Chanty Binx being "mouthy"? Because she wasn't opposing equality, she was loudly pointing out areas where MRAs and Feminists can, and in her opinion should, work together to achieve it.

 

[ruby sparks]

Can you provide any examples? And are these 'opposite' ones common or well known or representative of a persistent strain of thought within the larger movement? Because if all you've got is an extremist or two, so what? Every movement has those.

Various things are going on here. One is that 'what feminism is', as regards what we might call its objectionable aspects, is being exaggerated. We can see this. It has been repeatedly said, without any proper justification, that most feminists are not egalitarian, or don't care about men, or something along those lines. Now, if this assertion can't be backed up, it is a clue as to what's really going on here. Overreaction & skewing.

The other thing that's going on is the equating, more or less, of men's issues with women's. This is made abundantly clear in statements like 'the patriarchy does not exist', but also in other statements, usually about men's rights. More skewing, essentially.

We can agree that men's rights are as important, in principle, but also agree that in practice, on the whole, that women face greater issues.

As to feminism, I partly share the feeling that it would be better if it gradually morphed into egalitarianism, but I am not so opposed to it remaining as feminism as some here. It is, obviously, not up to me in any case, it's just my opinion. And even if egalitarianism did become the more popular descriptor, if men's rights activists and women's rights activists could 'join forces' (or if there was at least a movement on that basis, alongside feminism and MRA) it should not, imo, mean equating the issues for the two sexes. Women generally face greater disadvantages. If someone can't concede that imbalance, then it's not actual egalitarianism, imo. It's something else. Ditto if pretty much all you do is complain about feminism.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

She "pretends" to care about men's issues? What makes you doubt her sincerity when she composed that list of common ground Feminists and MRAs share?

Her actions.

Incorrect. That "cry me a river" was very late in the recorded part of the back-and-forth on the sidewalk, and the recorded part ( or at least the part making the rounds on the internet) did not include the beginning of the exchange.

It wasn't the first time she said it. It was a catch phrase of hers that she said many times at many events and in interviews.

Her initial reaction in the posted video was frustration that people kept interrupting her as she read her list of concerns Feminists and MRAs share that, in her opinion, they should be working together to address.

As I wrote above, she does this insisting it happen on her terms, within her framework of patriarchy, immediately after she interrupted an event she was invited to politely attend and instead she screamed at and protested it, and her group cheered after the fire alarm was pulled, ending the event. That you can take her at all seriously or see her "agreement that mens issues matter" says a lot more about you than me. Do you find Richard Spencer genuine when he says he likes black people and only wants to help them? Would you take Fred Phelps seriously had he said he isn't against homosexuality?

I don't think you put aside your preconceptions and negative views and actually listened to her.

I don't think you have checked your own bias. Have you watched Cassie's film yet? It may help you.

As much as Feminists may want to think Feminism primarily stands for equality, it very often seeks to oppose it.

You may want to acknowledge this. Your not doing so makes you look like an ideologue in denial of reality.

Because she wasn't opposing equality, she was loudly pointing out areas where MRAs and Feminists can, and in her opinion should, work together to achieve it.

After she did her all to see to it such actual effort (CAFE) is shut down, and while demanding people listen to her instead of letting anyone else speak.

You have not commented on the shutting down of a "men's day" to call attention to these issues at York that Metaphor provided you a link to.

 

[laughing dog]

Sure: take Ryerson University
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel-banned-from-campus-groups-fight-back

Ryerson’s Men’s Issues Awareness Society (MIAS) was created in 2015 to deal with issues that disproportionately affect men and boys, “such as higher rates of suicide, homelessness, workplace injuries and failure in school.” Nearly half of MIAS’ members are women.

But the club has repeatedly been denied recognition by the Ryerson Students’ Union. The RSU claimed the group could cause an “unsafe” environment for women on campus and has purported links to anti-feminist groups, which it denies. The biggest strike against them, it seems, is that they haven’t drunk the Kool-Aid: they were told it was an RSU requirement to acknowledge the “systemic privilege that men have.”

“They have to acknowledge there’s a systemic suppression of women?” the judge asked incredulously.

He was told that they must.

“Isn’t there something wrong in making someone take an oath on what they believe or don’t believe?” Perrel asked. “Isn’t there something offensive requiring someone to acknowledge someone else’s belief systems?”

There certainly is.

On Oct. 27, 2015, MIAS was informed its application for club status had been rejected.

Or take when the University of York shut down International Men's Day plans after outrage from some staff and students
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...-of-york-cancels-international-mens-day-event

Feminists have near-total control of universities across the Western world (and that was true even twenty years ago when I got my undergraduate degree).

I suppose one's view of the accuracy of that claim depends on how one interprets "near-total", "control" and "across the Western World". In my experience in academia for over 30 years, that appears more like hyperbolic rhetoric or a delusional outburst than an accurate description of reality.

 

[Metaphor]

Sure: take Ryerson University
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel-banned-from-campus-groups-fight-back

Ryerson’s Men’s Issues Awareness Society (MIAS) was created in 2015 to deal with issues that disproportionately affect men and boys, “such as higher rates of suicide, homelessness, workplace injuries and failure in school.” Nearly half of MIAS’ members are women.

But the club has repeatedly been denied recognition by the Ryerson Students’ Union. The RSU claimed the group could cause an “unsafe” environment for women on campus and has purported links to anti-feminist groups, which it denies. The biggest strike against them, it seems, is that they haven’t drunk the Kool-Aid: they were told it was an RSU requirement to acknowledge the “systemic privilege that men have.”

“They have to acknowledge there’s a systemic suppression of women?” the judge asked incredulously.

He was told that they must.

“Isn’t there something wrong in making someone take an oath on what they believe or don’t believe?” Perrel asked. “Isn’t there something offensive requiring someone to acknowledge someone else’s belief systems?”

There certainly is.

On Oct. 27, 2015, MIAS was informed its application for club status had been rejected.

Or take when the University of York shut down International Men's Day plans after outrage from some staff and students
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...-of-york-cancels-international-mens-day-event

Feminists have near-total control of universities across the Western world (and that was true even twenty years ago when I got my undergraduate degree).

I suppose one's view of the accuracy of that claim depends on how one interprets "near-total", "control" and "across the Western World". In my experience in academia for over 30 years, that appears more like hyperbolic rhetoric or a delusional outburst than an accurate description of reality.

I'm shocked to hear this. Nobody has ever used hyperbole on a message board before.