who is a muslim?

[fast]

You could have made the good moral choices
.

if i had made good moral choice, would god be wrong about my going to hell?

Yes, but that's a big if. It's not that you can't. It's that you won't. You won't make the right choice. You can, but you won't. Knowing you won't don't mean you can't. Infallibly knowing you won't don't mean you can't. Not having the ability to means you cannot. His knowledge doesn't effect your ability.

 

[fast]

I could have said something different. What was stopping me?

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else.
If God didn't know the reasons (or if there are no specific reasons for your behavior*) then ultimately your choices and behavior are a mystery even to God.




*If such a thing is even possible

Take a quarter and throw it across your house. Possibly, it's on the ground tails up. True? Yeah? Remember that.

When you walk around the house and see it heads up, don't have memory loss.

 

[couch_sloth]

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else.
If God didn't know the reasons (or if there are no specific reasons for your behavior*) then ultimately your choices and behavior are a mystery even to God.




*If such a thing is even possible

Take a quarter and throw it across your house. Possibly, it's on the ground tails up. True? Yeah? Remember that.

When you walk around the house and see it heads up, don't have memory loss.

From the standpoint of the omnipotent and omniscient creator God, it could only be 'heads up'; it could be nothing else. This god set in motion (i.e. created) everything that lead to it being 'heads', this god has known from the beginning that it would be 'heads'. There is no chance of it being anything else.

 

[Methinx]

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else.
If God didn't know the reasons (or if there are no specific reasons for your behavior*) then ultimately your choices and behavior are a mystery even to God.


*If such a thing is even possible

Take a quarter and throw it across your house. Possibly, it's on the ground tails up. True? Yeah? Remember that.

When you walk around the house and see it heads up, don't have memory loss.

So, God throws a coin across the floor knowing how it will fall...but the coin has a choice??
Pull the other one.

 

[fast]

Take a quarter and throw it across your house. Possibly, it's on the ground tails up. True? Yeah? Remember that.

When you walk around the house and see it heads up, don't have memory loss.

So, God throws a coin across the floor knowing how it will fall...but the coin has a choice??
Pull the other one.

A coin is not the kind of thing that can make a choice.

 

[Juma]

freewill imply god does not know

There is no such implication. One has nothing to do with the other.

If you know that I will do something, then there is an implication, for knowledge implies truth, so if you know that I will do something, then by implication, it's true that I will do it. If I don't do it, then it's not true that I did it and also not true you knew I would do it. If I do do it, it's not because you knew I would do it. Your knowing something about what I will do doesn't make me do what I will (or what I must).

This is the crap argument I objects to. (Syed arguments is also crap but somehow I expect more from you)

Libertarian free will DO imply that there cannot be an omniscient being.

Knowledge DO require that what is known is true, otherwise it isnt knowledge.

Some definitions of knowledge also requires some causal relationship but that is not interesting here.

 

[Syed]

god knows every thing, god gave human freewill to chose good and bad, so god cant say what he will choose

So, Syed, what particular sect do you belong to? Because Sunni orthodoxy is different. Allah knows everything before the fact, including what you will imagine was your own will.

E.g. from "What must be known about Islam" by Muhammad bin Ali al-Arfaj (http://www.enjoyislam.com/books/islamic_books/what-must-be-known-about-islam.pdf):

... Belief in Al-Qadar (Divine Preordainment) ... This means that the Muslim believes that, before Allah created the creation, He had knowledge of all that was to occur; he believes that whatever Allah wills happens and that Allah has complete power; and he believes that only that which Allah wills takes place in the universe; what He wills happens, what he doesn't will, doesn't happen. ... He is satisfied and calm because he knows that Allah decreed his provision, his life span, and all of the matters that he wants and achieves.

I'm not going to try and find now the relevant stuff about how despite all this Sunni orthodoxy affirms human free will, acknowledges that it seems to contradict Al-Qadar but holds that the contradiction is only apparent, although only Allah knows how to resolve it. IOW it's a mystery of faith, although scholars see it prudent not to mention it too much in front of the flock, just as Catholic theologians have to be pressured to admit that the Catholic Church teaches predestination alongside free will, declaring the obviously non-existent reconciliation idea to be a mystery of faith.

i was born to sunni family

the quran does not gave any detail about what is Al-Qadar, muslim scholars come up with their own understanding and makes lot of mistakes

here is MY understanding of Al-Qadar

all human will died is Al-Qadar

judgement day is Al-Qadar

all human get sickness is Al-Qadar ( that does not mean god make you sick )

all human will die and resurrect again is Al-Qadar

all human will go to either heaven or hell Al-Qadar

their are many more thing about Al-Qadar


a individual will not go to hell or heaven as a predestination

 

[Syed]

if i had made good moral choice, would god be wrong about my going to hell?

Yes, but that's a big if. It's not that you can't. It's that you won't. You won't make the right choice..

do you think from ETERNITY i made a choice to go to hell?

IF god show me hell and heaven do you think i will STILL chose hell ?

 

[fast]

Yes, but that's a big if. It's not that you can't. It's that you won't. You won't make the right choice..

do you think from ETERNITY i made a choice to go to hell?

IF god show me hell and heaven do you think i will STILL chose hell ?

You don't make that choice, at least not directly, but if you choose to make decisions that make you hell-worthy, and if He decides, then well, there ya go. You still have this notion that you have no say in how you will behave--if God already knows. If God knows you will misbehave, then it's true you will make decisions of your own accord to misbehave, not because you have no choice in the matter.

 

[Syed]

God knew you were going to say that and you couldn't have said anything different.

I could have said something different. What was stopping me?

according to YOU, you cant do anything else, what god already knew what you going to do

 

[fast]

I could have said something different. What was stopping me?

according to YOU, you cant do anything else, what god already knew what you going to do

This reminds me of a child not knowing the difference between, "can I go to the bathroom," and "may I go to the bathroom." Distinctions are important.

Can versus cannot
In this instance, if you cannot go to the bathroom, you do not have the ability to go, even if you have permission. For instance, if you are chained to a desk, you cannot leave the room of your own accord.

Can versus can not
In this instance, you have a choice, regardless of permissibility. You can go, or you can not go ... choice is yours ... but be prepared to suffer the consequences of your choice.

May versus may
In one context, the issue is an issue of permissibility, and in another context, the issue is an issue of reasonable plausibility. For example, "you may go to the bathroom" expresses permissibility. Another example: "quick, hide the pot, for we just ran a red light and the law enforcement officer may pull us over and find it."

May versus might
Might: your house might be on fire, but I'm not going to call you up merely because it's possible. I won't be calling 911 or the fire department, and the reason is because despite the possibility that it is on fire, I have no good reason to think that it may be on fire. Caution: people often conflate the two, so outside of philosophical discussions, if someone says your house might be on fire, treat it as someone saying that your house may be on fire.

Will versus must
anyone wanna give it a shot?

 

[fast]

There is no such implication. One has nothing to do with the other.

If you know that I will do something, then there is an implication, for knowledge implies truth, so if you know that I will do something, then by implication, it's true that I will do it. If I don't do it, then it's not true that I did it and also not true you knew I would do it. If I do do it, it's not because you knew I would do it. Your knowing something about what I will do doesn't make me do what I will (or what I must).

This is the crap argument I objects to. (Syed arguments is also crap but somehow I expect more from you)

Libertarian free will DO imply that there cannot be an omniscient being.

Knowledge DO require that what is known is true, otherwise it isnt knowledge.

Some definitions of knowledge also requires some causal relationship but that is not interesting here.

The notion of a Libertarian free will is a confused notion.

 

[Juma]

This is the crap argument I objects to. (Syed arguments is also crap but somehow I expect more from you)

Libertarian free will DO imply that there cannot be an omniscient being.

Knowledge DO require that what is known is true, otherwise it isnt knowledge.

Some definitions of knowledge also requires some causal relationship but that is not interesting here.

The notion of a Libertarian free will is a confused notion.

So what version of free will are you discussing then?

 

[bilby]

Will versus must
anyone wanna give it a shot?

Sure:

Will is a document describing how to distribute the assets of the deceased; and must is a state of arousal experienced by bull elephants during mating season.

You're welcome.

 

[fast]

Will versus must
anyone wanna give it a shot?

Sure:

Will is a document describing how to distribute the assets of the deceased; and must is a state of arousal experienced by bull elephants during mating season.

You're welcome.

You're awesome!

- - - Updated - - -

The notion of a Libertarian free will is a confused notion.

So what version of free will are you discussing then?

1.0

(Outdated, but hey, I'm old school)

 

[Juma]

Sure:

Will is a document describing how to distribute the assets of the deceased; and must is a state of arousal experienced by bull elephants during mating season.

You're welcome.

You're awesome!

- - - Updated - - -

The notion of a Libertarian free will is a confused notion.

So what version of free will are you discussing then?

1.0

(Outdated, but hey, I'm old school)

Care to make an actual response? >-(

 

[fromderinside]

fast is fasting. Me? Will?

 

[Barbarian]

So, Syed, what particular sect do you belong to? Because Sunni orthodoxy is different. Allah knows everything before the fact, including what you will imagine was your own will.

E.g. from "What must be known about Islam" by Muhammad bin Ali al-Arfaj (http://www.enjoyislam.com/books/islamic_books/what-must-be-known-about-islam.pdf):

... Belief in Al-Qadar (Divine Preordainment) ... This means that the Muslim believes that, before Allah created the creation, He had knowledge of all that was to occur; he believes that whatever Allah wills happens and that Allah has complete power; and he believes that only that which Allah wills takes place in the universe; what He wills happens, what he doesn't will, doesn't happen. ... He is satisfied and calm because he knows that Allah decreed his provision, his life span, and all of the matters that he wants and achieves.

I'm not going to try and find now the relevant stuff about how despite all this Sunni orthodoxy affirms human free will, acknowledges that it seems to contradict Al-Qadar but holds that the contradiction is only apparent, although only Allah knows how to resolve it. IOW it's a mystery of faith, although scholars see it prudent not to mention it too much in front of the flock, just as Catholic theologians have to be pressured to admit that the Catholic Church teaches predestination alongside free will, declaring the obviously non-existent reconciliation idea to be a mystery of faith.

i was born to sunni family

Interesting choice of words, with no clear implication for the present. For instance I was born into a Christian family but I'm not a Christian. Are you still considering yourself a Sunni? (For the purposes of this discussion let's just consider Wahhabis to be Sunnis; after all, they aren't that far from their source, the madhhab or ibn Hanbal.)

the quran does not gave any detail about what is Al-Qadar, muslim scholars come up with their own understanding and makes lot of mistakes

I almost started here to defend those scholars, because although you are right that al-Qadar is not in the Qur'an, it still is based on the Qur'an. Basically, those islamic scholars whose views won in the end thought they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience and free will, and they chose the latter.

here is MY understanding of Al-Qadar

all human will died is Al-Qadar

judgement day is Al-Qadar

all human get sickness is Al-Qadar ( that does not mean god make you sick )

all human will die and resurrect again is Al-Qadar

all human will go to either heaven or hell Al-Qadar

their are many more thing about Al-Qadar


a individual will not go to hell or heaven as a predestination

So basically it is preordained that shit shall happen in general, but no particular person is coerced by Allah's will into any one of the possible outcomes? As in, humans in general will end up in either Heaven or Hell but Allah did not make a separate predetermination as to where every particular person is going? There shall be sickness in the world by Allah's decree, but no particular individual is determined by Allah to become sick, it just happens according to happenstance?

That's a very thin version of predestination. It is, in fact, more like the other extreme, claiming essentially God created the worlds and their laws, then left us to our devices, not interfering with details. So what does insh'allah refer to, then, if Allah doesn't actually take an interest in deciding the outcomes of individual happenings?

Actually, I think I could argue that holding this opinion is tantamount to the greater shirk. Free will is a supernatural claim, proposing an ability to supply small first causes. But this is the prerogative of God alone; by claiming that humans (and jinn) can do so amounts to associating them with Allah, believing that they partake in Allah's power.

 

[DrZoidberg]

who is a muslim?

islam mean submission or surrendered to god

muslim mean one WHO surrendered or submitted to god

EVERY thing in the universe is a muslim sun,moon, galaxy, universe, earth, star, dust, sky, water, plants, animals, birds,insect, human, jews, christians, hindus, atheists,budhists, jinn, satan, all prophets and muslims are MUSLIM

SUN is a muslim surrendered to god

sun will not die UNTIL god command to die

a human will not die UNTIL god command to die

EVERY ATOM in the universe is a muslim ( that simply mean that god control or god have power over every atom )

ONLY human and jinn god's gave limited free will

EVERY knowledge that human have math, science, art, languages are given by god to human

human are like robot, god's programed our brain with 1000s of software and our software in our brain gave us ability to walk, talk, dance, write,read, see, smell, hear,feel pain, feel happy, feel sad, calculate, do math, love, INVENT, and with limited free will

( human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do )

we are robot with LIMITED free will ( god did not surprised when we invented iphone or computer or walked on the moon )

Lol, Al-Ghazali nonsense. What Al-Ghazali managed to prove was that the fact that a theology is logical doesn't mean it makes sense. Logic alone isn't proof. He just moved all causal chain's to God making it impossible to draw any conclusions about anything. Ie, whatever happens is because it's the will of God.

The problem is that the same logic can be used to disprove it. I can invent a new God and just claim that everything that happens is because this new God wills it. And then make up whatever qualities I want of that God. I can make up an infinity of Gods and keep going. Each as logical as the rest. The result is that I haven't proven anything.

Nice try, but no cigar.

edit: BTW, Al-Ghazali's nonsense was picked apart and criticised by other Muslim philosophers of his own day. Especially by, (the most famous one) Ibn Rushd.

 

[Syed]

who is a muslim?

islam mean submission or surrendered to god

muslim mean one WHO surrendered or submitted to god

EVERY thing in the universe is a muslim sun,moon, galaxy, universe, earth, star, dust, sky, water, plants, animals, birds,insect, human, jews, christians, hindus, atheists,budhists, jinn, satan, all prophets and muslims are MUSLIM

SUN is a muslim surrendered to god

sun will not die UNTIL god command to die

a human will not die UNTIL god command to die

EVERY ATOM in the universe is a muslim ( that simply mean that god control or god have power over every atom )

ONLY human and jinn god's gave limited free will

EVERY knowledge that human have math, science, art, languages are given by god to human

human are like robot, god's programed our brain with 1000s of software and our software in our brain gave us ability to walk, talk, dance, write,read, see, smell, hear,feel pain, feel happy, feel sad, calculate, do math, love, INVENT, and with limited free will

( human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do )

we are robot with LIMITED free will ( god did not surprised when we invented iphone or computer or walked on the moon )

Lol, Al-Ghazali nonsense. What Al-Ghazali managed to prove was that the fact that a theology is logical doesn't mean it makes sense. Logic alone isn't proof. He just moved all causal chain's to God making it impossible to draw any conclusions about anything. Ie, whatever happens is because it's the will of God.

The problem is that the same logic can be used to disprove it. I can invent a new God and just claim that everything that happens is because this new God wills it. And then make up whatever qualities I want of that God. I can make up an infinity of Gods and keep going. Each as logical as the rest. The result is that I haven't proven anything.

Nice try, but no cigar.

edit: BTW, Al-Ghazali's nonsense was picked apart and criticised by other Muslim philosophers of his own day. Especially by, (the most famous one) Ibn Rushd.

i dont read books and i dont think ghazali said this

EVERY knowledge that human have math, science, art, languages are given by god to human

human are like robot, god's programed our brain with 1000s of software and our software in our brain gave us ability to walk, talk, dance, write,read, see, smell, hear,feel pain, feel happy, feel sad, calculate, do math, love, INVENT, and with limited free will

( human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do )

we are robot with LIMITED free will ( god did not surprised when we invented iphone or computer or walked on the moon )