Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[Loren Pechtel]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

 

[Toni]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

How? By being female? Because that choice was made by her dad, not her.

 

[Metaphor]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

How? By being female? Because that choice was made by her dad, not her.

My goodness no wonder women are afraid of the patriarchy. Men can decide the sex of their children!

 

[TSwizzle]

Over and over men in this thread have sought to limit discussion to whatever they term is consensual sex.

Nope, but you do want to limit the discussion to be about the incidents where it’s non consensual. And you pretty much view any sexual encounter a woman has with a man as being non consensual and it’s always the man’s fault a woman gets pregnant. It’s just the dumb game you play. You have nothing to offer on the discussion other than that. It’s not relevant, it’s predictable and it’s quite funny in a way. It’s like your catchphrase. #notallpregnanciesoccurbecauseofconsensualsex. #allmenarerapists.

Not all pregnancies occur because of consensual sex.

Some pregnancies are IVF. Still the man’s fault because he jerked off into cup six months earlier. Still non consensual probably. It’s a form of rape I suppose.

And if women don’t want to get pregnant they should do it standing up. That’s what I heard back in high school, if you did it standing up the girl wouldn’t get pregnant.

 

[laughing dog]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

So? That's like dismissing the death of a pedestrian who is killed by a drunk driver while crossing the street with the light and in a crosswalk with "That's the risk they choose to take."

 

[Toni]

Over and over men in this thread have sought to limit discussion to whatever they term is consensual sex.

Nope, but you do want to limit the discussion to be about the incidents where it’s non consensual. And you pretty much view any sexual encounter a woman has with a man as being non consensual and it’s always the man’s fault a woman gets pregnant. It’s just the dumb game you play. You have nothing to offer on the discussion other than that. It’s not relevant, it’s predictable and it’s quite funny in a way. It’s like your catchphrase. #notallpregnanciesoccurbecauseofconsensualsex. #allmenarerapists.

Not all pregnancies occur because of consensual sex.

Some pregnancies are IVF. Still the man’s fault because he jerked off into cup six months earlier. Still non consensual probably. It’s a form of rape I suppose.

And if women don’t want to get pregnant they should do it standing up. That’s what I heard back in high school, if you did it standing up the girl wouldn’t get pregnant.

Please quit trying to tell me what I think or want. You’re wrong and it’s even more embarrassing towards you than it is condescending towards me.

My original statement made no distinction between consensual sex, rape or IVF or other assisted reproductive strategies.

I’m not assigning blame or fault or even responsibility. I’m stating a fact: with the exception of that very tiny number of cases such as Metaphor described with regards to his comatose brother, in order for pregnancy to happen, a man ejaculates, usually inside or near a vagina but sometimes in a sample cup.

Some want to equate ejaculation with ovulation when those are not analogous. Men’s bodies produce sperm on an ongoing basis from puberty onward, with production falling off as the man ages. Women are born with their entire lifetime’s supply of ova already present.

In almost every case, a man must take action in order to deposit his sperm in or near a vagina or sample cup. A woman merely has to be present and ovulating within a time crime of about 5 days. She does not have to actively participate. She can, in fact, actively resist and still be impregnated. She does not need to feel any pleasure or experience orgasm. On the other hand, ejaculation is almost always accompanied by pleasure and release of orgasm.

Ovum and egg must meet in the right environment, at the correct time, in order to fuse and create a zygote which then travels through the Fallopian tube where it may or may not implant in the lining of the uterus.

The man’s efforts/contribution/biological expenditure is sometimes at the point of ejaculation. His body expends no more energy or resources to support the pregnancy. If the fertilized egg implants in the Fallopian tube instead of the uterus, neither his life nor his fertility are at risk. He will not undergo any of the many physiological changes that a woman’s body undergoes during pregnancy, childbirth or the postpartum period. He does not lose his job or nor is his career interrupted. He doesn’t even need new pants or shoes. He doesn’t risk death or disability. He’s simply free to go about his life, however he chooses to live it. There are zero laws or Supreme Court rulings that dictate a single moment of his life as a result of his orgasm.

Of course men and boys can be raped, usually by other men and boys but sometimes by women as well.

Rape is always despicable and wrong, whether it is forcible or statutory., whether the victim is male or female; whether the perpetrator is male or female.

 

[Toni]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

How? By being female? Because that choice was made by her dad, not her.

My goodness no wonder women are afraid of the patriarchy. Men can decide the sex of their children!

You weren’t aware? I should note that men cannot choose which sperm fertilizes an ovum, one with an X or a Y chromosome. But the male does determine the sex of the baby.

 

[TSwizzle]

Please quit trying to tell me what I think or want. You’re wrong and it’s even more embarrassing towards you than it is condescending towards me.

You’re mostly boring with your repetitive sloganeering. I can’t think what pleasure you get from posting the same crap page after page. Just another sermon. You behave like a chatbot, just interjecting yourself into a long settled point with a “but rape”. Put some effort into it, lazy bones.

 

[Toni]

Please quit trying to tell me what I think or want. You’re wrong and it’s even more embarrassing towards you than it is condescending towards me.

You’re mostly boring with your repetitive sloganeering. I can’t think what pleasure you get from posting the same crap page after page. Just another sermon. You behave like a chatbot, just interjecting yourself into a long settled point with a “but rape”. Put some effort into it, lazy bones.

OTOH, you’ve offered nothing but ignorance and misogyny. As far as I can tell, no one is twisting your arm to deliver bon mots with which to enlighten us all.

 

[Terrell]

If this thread was a horse...

IT would be dizzy from going around in circles.

And it would be named Arvak.

 

[TSwizzle]

Please quit trying to tell me what I think or want. You’re wrong and it’s even more embarrassing towards you than it is condescending towards me.

You’re mostly boring with your repetitive sloganeering. I can’t think what pleasure you get from posting the same crap page after page. Just another sermon. You behave like a chatbot, just interjecting yourself into a long settled point with a “but rape”. Put some effort into it, lazy bones.

OTOH, you’ve offered nothing but ignorance and misogyny.

No I have not. All you have offered is “but rape”. A mantra, not a counter argument.

 

[Metaphor]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

How? By being female? Because that choice was made by her dad, not her.

My goodness no wonder women are afraid of the patriarchy. Men can decide the sex of their children!

You weren’t aware? I should note that men cannot choose which sperm fertilizes an ovum, one with an X or a Y chromosome. But the male does determine the sex of the baby.

I was not aware that men could choose the sex of their children, no, and I am still not aware of any such thing, because aside from selective sex-based abortion (yes it seems humans do have a sex even before they're born), or selective IVF, no man can choose the sex of his children.

But I see you've walked back your claim, which is good, because the claim was ludicrous. Now you are merely claiming that the small motile gamete determines what sex the fertilised egg will become, which is true and trivial to point out.

Toni, you appear quite desperate in your attempts to strip all agency from women with respect to the necessary but not sufficient role they play in conception. It will not work, except to the people who already think exactly like you.

 

[Metaphor]

Some want to equate ejaculation with ovulation when those are not analogous.

Toni, nobody has equated them. YOU made the false analogy. It is ridiculous to compare ejaculation with ovulation, and then declare ejaculation as the voluntary act in order to make some point about men's role in conception.

If you want to compare the involuntary acts that are necessary for conception, they include the production of ova in women and the production of sperm in men. Both involuntary.

If you want to compare the voluntary acts that are necessary for conception, they include a man consenting to ejaculate in a woman's vagina, and a woman consenting to a man ejaculating in her vagina.

But I don't think you want to do that. You appear to want to make a causative beginning for conception with ejaculation and make a point of its 'voluntariness'. You also claim you are not interested in assigning 'blame', but it seems that's exactly what you are trying to do.

Men and women are equal causative agents in conception, biologically speaking and ethically speaking.*

*When the activity is consensual.

Men’s bodies produce sperm on an ongoing basis from puberty onward, with production falling off as the man ages. Women are born with their entire lifetime’s supply of ova already present.

Right. So what?

 

[Metaphor]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

So? That's like dismissing the death of a pedestrian who is killed by a drunk driver while crossing the street with the light and in a crosswalk with "That's the risk they choose to take."

How is it like that in any conceivable sense? It isn't. A drunk driver is at fault for killing the pedestrian (presumably). The drunk driver and the pedestrian did not collude in a voluntary game of 'let's see if you can kill me'.

But unless all penis-in-vagina sex is rape (I know it sounds like satire to say it but such an utterance has passed the lips of a feminist before today), then the actors who volunteered in the penis-in-vagina sex are both equally causative - and equally culpable. Saying "a woman does not consent to pregnancy" just because she has penis-in-vagina sex is true, but it's trivial. She consented to actions that could lead to pregnancy, and she is biologically and ethically as responsible for the pregnancy as the man.

 

[Toni]

Some want to equate ejaculation with ovulation when those are not analogous.

Toni, nobody has equated them. YOU made the false analogy. It is ridiculous to compare ejaculation with ovulation, and then declare ejaculation as the voluntary act in order to make some point about men's role in conception.

If you want to compare the involuntary acts that are necessary for conception, they include the production of ova in women and the production of sperm in men. Both involuntary.

If you want to compare the voluntary acts that are necessary for conception, they include a man consenting to ejaculate in a woman's vagina, and a woman consenting to a man ejaculating in her vagina.

But I don't think you want to do that. You appear to want to make a causative beginning for conception with ejaculation and make a point of its 'voluntariness'. You also claim you are not interested in assigning 'blame', but it seems that's exactly what you are trying to do.

Men and women are equal causative agents in conception, biologically speaking and ethically speaking.*

*When the activity is consensual.

Men’s bodies produce sperm on an ongoing basis from puberty onward, with production falling off as the man ages. Women are born with their entire lifetime’s supply of ova already present.

Right. So what?

Absolutely that's not true. Loren in particular has repeatedly equated ovulation with ejaculation.

Thank you for repeating what I've written before: ova and sperm production are analogous.

OTOH, ejaculation is almost always voluntary and the result of voluntary action on the part of the man. Women, OTOH, do not have to agree to penetration, vaginal penetration or ejaculation without the use of a condom in order to conceive. They are NOT analogous nor are they equal.

In the context of an intimate relationship, it's far more likely that they are both consenting to the possibility of a pregnancy and perhaps have even discussed their potential reactions should whatever birth control they chose fail for whatever reason.

But lots of people have sex outside the boundaries of an established intimate relationship. It is not very likely that he has considered the possibility of a pregnancy aside, perhaps, that of course she'd have an abortion and it's not his problem anyway. She might have considered it and might or might not assume that he will use a condom, use a condom correctly, there will be no 'mistakes' or 'accidents.' They both might assume that they know what they will do if there is an accidental pregnancy. The reality of a pregnancy might awake different emotions in either or both: One might find themselves happy at the idea or guilty at the idea of an abortion, horrified, a whole spectrum of emotions. But honestly, most such cases involve sufficient passion and sometimes, sufficient intoxicants that neither is thinking very much at the time. This lack of foresight is mutual.

Unless it's not. In the case of rape, it certainly is not mutual. If she claims she's using birth control and is not: it's not mutual consent. If he promises to use a condom and does not: it's not mutual consent. If either is mostly using whatever birth control they say they are but make a mistake or use it haphazardly or incorrectly---all of which is much, much, much more likely to occur if they are young. Or if a pill is missed or if she's on certain medications that interfere with the effectiveness of the pill--which she might not be aware of! Nor may she realize she missed a pill. He may well intend to use a condom; he may well intend to pull out in time (which isn't 100% effective as was pointed out earlier). She has very little to zero control after penetration as to whether or not he pulls out in time, has used a condom. She may not be expecting to be penetrated when he penetrates her. All sorts of things go wrong. Young people! Which correlates to the exact time in their lives when both are most likely at the peak of their fertility. But can happen at any time in one's life.

It is indeed heartening to see so many men step up and say that they are equally responsible for any pregnancy. They aren't, really. At least not all the time. Either can lie. Either can fail to keep a promise. Either can be raped but it is almost always the woman who is the victim of sexual aggression.

Men in this thread are saying she should just keep her knees together. Well, he should just keep his dick in his pants.

 

[Toni]

Some want to equate ejaculation with ovulation when those are not analogous.

Toni, nobody has equated them. YOU made the false analogy. It is ridiculous to compare ejaculation with ovulation, and then declare ejaculation as the voluntary act in order to make some point about men's role in conception.

If you want to compare the involuntary acts that are necessary for conception, they include the production of ova in women and the production of sperm in men. Both involuntary.

If you want to compare the voluntary acts that are necessary for conception, they include a man consenting to ejaculate in a woman's vagina, and a woman consenting to a man ejaculating in her vagina.

But I don't think you want to do that. You appear to want to make a causative beginning for conception with ejaculation and make a point of its 'voluntariness'. You also claim you are not interested in assigning 'blame', but it seems that's exactly what you are trying to do.

Men and women are equal causative agents in conception, biologically speaking and ethically speaking.*

*When the activity is consensual.

Men’s bodies produce sperm on an ongoing basis from puberty onward, with production falling off as the man ages. Women are born with their entire lifetime’s supply of ova already present.

Right. So what?

No, I compared/contrasted the two events, one of which is voluntary and one of which is not.

They are not equal, as I have stated

 

[Toni]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

How? By being female? Because that choice was made by her dad, not her.

My goodness no wonder women are afraid of the patriarchy. Men can decide the sex of their children!

You weren’t aware? I should note that men cannot choose which sperm fertilizes an ovum, one with an X or a Y chromosome. But the male does determine the sex of the baby.

I was not aware that men could choose the sex of their children, no, and I am still not aware of any such thing, because aside from selective sex-based abortion (yes it seems humans do have a sex even before they're born), or selective IVF, no man can choose the sex of his children.

But I see you've walked back your claim, which is good, because the claim was ludicrous. Now you are merely claiming that the small motile gamete determines what sex the fertilised egg will become, which is true and trivial to point out.

Toni, you appear quite desperate in your attempts to strip all agency from women with respect to the necessary but not sufficient role they play in conception. It will not work, except to the people who already think exactly like you.

It's the only thing I actually claimed. The father determines the sex of the baby. I just did not go into details. Honestly, I cannot win. Some get very upset if I make broad statements; others get upset if I go into detail. I mean, some were complaining about the frequency with which I used the word ejaculate or ejaculation.

Men get so emotional about these things.

 

[Metaphor]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

How? By being female? Because that choice was made by her dad, not her.

My goodness no wonder women are afraid of the patriarchy. Men can decide the sex of their children!

You weren’t aware? I should note that men cannot choose which sperm fertilizes an ovum, one with an X or a Y chromosome. But the male does determine the sex of the baby.

I was not aware that men could choose the sex of their children, no, and I am still not aware of any such thing, because aside from selective sex-based abortion (yes it seems humans do have a sex even before they're born), or selective IVF, no man can choose the sex of his children.

But I see you've walked back your claim, which is good, because the claim was ludicrous. Now you are merely claiming that the small motile gamete determines what sex the fertilised egg will become, which is true and trivial to point out.

Toni, you appear quite desperate in your attempts to strip all agency from women with respect to the necessary but not sufficient role they play in conception. It will not work, except to the people who already think exactly like you.

It's the only thing I actually claimed. The father determines the sex of the baby. I just did not go into details. Honestly, I cannot win. Some get very upset if I make broad statements; others get upset if I go into detail. I mean, some were complaining about the frequency with which I used the word ejaculate or ejaculation.

Men get so emotional about these things.

You said being female was "a choice made [for her] by her dad". There was no 'choice' involved on anybody's part. Men do not choose the sex of their children.

 

[Toni]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

How? By being female? Because that choice was made by her dad, not her.

My goodness no wonder women are afraid of the patriarchy. Men can decide the sex of their children!

You weren’t aware? I should note that men cannot choose which sperm fertilizes an ovum, one with an X or a Y chromosome. But the male does determine the sex of the baby.

I was not aware that men could choose the sex of their children, no, and I am still not aware of any such thing, because aside from selective sex-based abortion (yes it seems humans do have a sex even before they're born), or selective IVF, no man can choose the sex of his children.

But I see you've walked back your claim, which is good, because the claim was ludicrous. Now you are merely claiming that the small motile gamete determines what sex the fertilised egg will become, which is true and trivial to point out.

Toni, you appear quite desperate in your attempts to strip all agency from women with respect to the necessary but not sufficient role they play in conception. It will not work, except to the people who already think exactly like you.

It's the only thing I actually claimed. The father determines the sex of the baby. I just did not go into details. Honestly, I cannot win. Some get very upset if I make broad statements; others get upset if I go into detail. I mean, some were complaining about the frequency with which I used the word ejaculate or ejaculation.

Men get so emotional about these things.

You said being female was "a choice made [for her] by her dad". There was no 'choice' involved on anybody's part. Men do not choose the sex of their children.

My apologies: A better word would have been determined. In human reproduction, sex is determined by the father.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

There are a LOT of situations where a woman may end up having ejaculate in her vagina without having consented to it. They run tha gamut from forcible rape to "oops I lost control and didn't pull out in time".

That's a risk she chose to take.

How? By being female? Because that choice was made by her dad, not her.

By choosing to use withdrawl as contraception. Sometimes the guy doesn't pull out on time.