Who Should Pay Child Support? (Split from Roe v Wade is on deck)

[TomC]

You still have not cited any law that says that a fetus becomes a child if and when the mother decides.

It's referred to as RoevWade.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

You still have not cited any law that says that a fetus becomes a child if and when the mother decides.

It's referred to as RoevWade.
Tom

No, Roe v Wade basically decides when a fetus becomes a child - the mother had nothing to do with it.

 

[TomC]

You still have not cited any law that says that a fetus becomes a child if and when the mother decides.

It's referred to as RoevWade.
Tom

No, Roe v Wade basically decides when a fetus becomes a child - the mother had nothing to do with it.

That's really quite nonsensical.
When the mother chooses to gestate the fetus(or chooses not to terminate parental responsibility, or however you want to phrase that) the fetus is a child in need of support. Sometimes, choosing not to choose is making a choice.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Seeing this thread is about a child that has been born, I'm not certain why the delineation of when it becomes viable or a "child" is relevant. Unless child support payments are required at the date a fetus is deemed viable.

The question is, with a child born, who is responsible for supporting the child?

1) Just the mother
2) Just the father
3) The mother and father
4) Parent(s) and the state
5) Child on its own

The child is here. That really is all that matters, now the question is how to ensure the child experiences a first world childhood.

 

[laughing dog]

You still have not cited any law that says that a fetus becomes a child if and when the mother decides.

It's referred to as RoevWade.
Tom

No, Roe v Wade basically decides when a fetus becomes a child - the mother had nothing to do with it.

That's really quite nonsensical.

Not to those who actually think.

When the mother chooses to gestate the fetus(or chooses not to terminate parental responsibility, or however you want to phrase that) the fetus is a child in need of support. Sometimes, choosing not to choose is making a choice.
Tom

While it is a choice to allow a fetus to mature, the maturation (a biological process) determines when the fetus is legally or socially determined to be a child. Your response ignores reality.

Your persistent defense of the abdication parental responsibility for support on the part of the unwilling male parent ignores the needs of the child. It appears your butthurt over the legality of abortion clouds whatever reasoning faculties you have.

 

[laughing dog]

Seeing this thread is about a child that has been born, I'm not certain why the delineation of when it becomes viable or a "child" is relevant. Unless child support payments are required at the date a fetus is deemed viable.

JH - you fail to understand the principle that no male should have to support some child just because he voluntarily impregnated a woman just because.

 

[TomC]

While it is a choice to allow a fetus to mature,

Let's stop right there for a reality check.

That's the choice I'm talking about. It doesn't happen at a particular moment. But it's a choice made exclusively by the mother.

the maturation (a biological process) determines when the fetus is legally or socially determined to be a child. Your response ignores reality.

The biological process doesn't determine whether the human being created at conception is a child or not. "The life cycle of a Primate" is a well understood concept. That's reality. "Child" is a vague word.

Whether any particular human being has inherent worth is a very subjective determination. I tend to err on the side of "inherent worth and dignity of all human beings". Not everyone does.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

While it is a choice to allow a fetus to mature,

Let's stop right there for a reality check.

That's the choice I'm talking about. It doesn't happen at a particular moment. But it's a choice made exclusively by the mother.

Ultimately, but not necessarily exclusively. Also, this thread is assuming that that decision to give birth. So, if your position is that if a woman chooses to give birth and, as a consequence, is on her own, then you need to pussyfooting and own the position.

 

[Gospel]

but not necessarily exclusively

I'd like the details. I'm very much interested.

 

[laughing dog]

While it is a choice to allow a fetus to mature,

Let's stop right there for a reality check.

That's the choice I'm talking about. It doesn't happen at a particular moment. But it's a choice made exclusively by the mother.

That choice does not mean the mother is choosing when a fetus becomes a child.

the maturation (a biological process) determines when the fetus is legally or socially determined to be a child. Your response ignores reality.

The biological process doesn't determine whether the human being created at conception is a child or not. "The life cycle of a Primate" is a well understood concept. That's reality. "Child" is a vague word.

Whether any particular human being has inherent worth is a very subjective determination. I tend to err on the side of "inherent worth and dignity of all human beings". Not everyone does.
Tom

Your religious beliefs are yours. That does not mean they trump rationality or the bodily integrity of others.

 

[TomC]

but not necessarily exclusively

I'd like the details. I'm very much interested.

I too will be interested to hear how Jimmy explains how that works, given RvW.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

but not necessarily exclusively

I'd like the details. I'm very much interested.

I too will be interested to hear how Jimmy explains how that works, given RvW.
Tom

Exclusively means that the woman decides entirely one her own. She has ultimate authority over her body, but she can take input from other people, such as a boyfriend, husband, friends, parents, etc... to help guide her to the choice she needs to make for herself.

You do understand how decisions are made right?

 

[Gospel]

I think both TomC and I know how decisions are made. We also know the difference between the person who makes the final decisions and the person(s) offering input.

Edit: For the record. I'm fine with the current way of things. That being the woman makes the final choice and I have no power over that decision. Just wanted to mention that before the women on this form rip me a new one.

 

[TomC]

choice does not mean the mother is choosing when a fetus becomes a child.

Mothers don't choose the exact moment.

But yeah, the mother decides if the fetal child will live or die.

Your religious beliefs are yours. That does not mean they trump rationality or the bodily integrity of others.

Have you any idea how annoying it is when elementary science is described as religious beliefs?

How much you sound, to me, like a creationist? Someone who ignores fundamental science because it interferes with their "sincerely held beliefs"?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

choice does not mean the mother is choosing when a fetus becomes a child.

Mothers don't choose the exact moment.

But yeah, the mother decides if the fetal child will live or die.

Your religious beliefs are yours. That does not mean they trump rationality or the bodily integrity of others.

Have you any idea how annoying it is when elementary science is described as religious beliefs?

Yes, I read your responses. It is not science to describe a fetus as a human being. Perhaps the problem here is that you are under the impression that since you use scientific terms that your beliefs are scientific.

How much you sound, to me, like a creationist? Someone who ignores fundamental science because it interferes with their "sincerely held beliefs"?
Tom

That one broke every irony meter that has ever existed and will break every one that will exist.

 

[TomC]

Exclusively means that the woman decides entirely one her own.

That's been my point all along.
The mother decides for herself, the child, and the father.

I think that both adults made a choice. A choice that involved another human being, who had no options, and so both of the adults now have a responsibility.
Tom

 

[TomC]

It is not science to describe a fetus as a human being.

Feel free to explain this.
Without referring to your ideological views of preference. Just explain why "Life Cycle of a Primate" doesn't refer to human beings.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Exclusively means that the woman decides entirely one her own.

That's been my point all along.
The mother decides for herself, the child, and the father.

I think that both adults made a choice. A choice that involved another human being, who had no options, and so both of the adults now have a responsibility.

I love it! Text with no meaning. If you pussyfoot anymore, we'll need an NC-17 rating for this thread. I'd ask what that "responsibility" is, but I know better than to expect an actual response/position on this from you.

 

[Jarhyn]

While it is a choice to allow a fetus to mature,

Let's stop right there for a reality check.

That's the choice I'm talking about. It doesn't happen at a particular moment. But it's a choice made exclusively by the mother.

the maturation (a biological process) determines when the fetus is legally or socially determined to be a child. Your response ignores reality.

The biological process doesn't determine whether the human being created at conception is a child or not. "The life cycle of a Primate" is a well understood concept. That's reality. "Child" is a vague word.

Whether any particular human being has inherent worth is a very subjective determination. I tend to err on the side of "inherent worth and dignity of all human beings". Not everyone does.
Tom

Tom, I'll note you haven't answered my discussion on that where it stands.

Parasitism is something that only engenders mercy, not an expectation of dignity.

And allowing something to be a parasite on mercy means nothing if you will not extend that mercy beyond their parasitism.

Children don't just need wombs, they need loving, well stocked homes.

 

[laughing dog]

It is not science to describe a fetus as a human being.

Feel free to explain this.

A human being is generally recognized as

a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance. (Definition of a human being

While I can hope that will stop you from appropriating scientific terms to couch your religious beliefs as "science", I am prepared to have my hopes disappointed.