Why are "refugees" still having children?

[Bomb#20]

Has there ever been a poor and oppressed people that stopped making babies?

Just wondering if there's a precedent for what Derec is asking for.

Last years of the Soviet Union.

 

[ZiprHead]

Has there ever been a poor and oppressed people that stopped making babies?

Just wondering if there's a precedent for what Derec is asking for.

Yes, during the Great Depression, no one had any babies in our own ancestral histories. That's because President Derec Roosevelt said, "Hey people, stop having babies" and they listened.

True story.

Ah, so that's why Derec's image is on Mt. Rushmore.

 

[iolo]

That is a mantra that doesn't really bear out. Negotiation and trade is much more practical than war for that purpose. US did not invade Saudi Arabia for example, but negotiated concessions to develop oil.

If the robbers manage to get their victims to die, who are they going to steal from?

Huh? Is this like that Jesus parable about first binding the strong man and then robbing a place?

Why should anyone attack his own serf? I don't have your reactionary Bible, by the way. What are you talking about?

 

[DrZoidberg]

As soon as things stabilise around them and they feel safe again the behaviours go away. So they're no more unsafe to take in than any other person. These aren't permanent traits. They're traits that appear in people under tremendous stress who live in very insecure surroundings.

Is anyone anywhere ever responsible for their own actions, or are people just mindless rocks rolling with their environment?

You're mixing ideas. We can hold people responsible for their actions, even though people are effected by what happens around them. Take you for instance, wouldn't you rather have been a rockstar or a wealthy playboy living the dream? I'm just assuming you're not now. Sorry if you actually are these things. We all need to deal with the hand that we've been dealt. People handle themselves differently well under stress. Do you really have as a cool head under stress as you do when you're not? How about prolonged stress over many months or years? Do you even know? People have studied this. We know from studies how certain activities increase in prevalence in certain situations. That's not taking away responsibility from people, that's accepting reality. We can still hold mothers responsible for getting children in an unsafe environment. But we can't create a system where that won't happen, and they only have themselves to blame when it happens. Sometimes humans don't behave rationally. The more stress the less rationality.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Sometimes humans don't behave rationally.

Sometimes?

The more stress the less rationality.

100% true.

 

[JonA]

Is anyone anywhere ever responsible for their own actions, or are people just mindless rocks rolling with their environment?

You're mixing ideas. We can hold people responsible for their actions, even though people are effected by what happens around them. Take you for instance, wouldn't you rather have been a rockstar or a wealthy playboy living the dream? I'm just assuming you're not now. Sorry if you actually are these things. We all need to deal with the hand that we've been dealt. People handle themselves differently well under stress. Do you really have as a cool head under stress as you do when you're not? How about prolonged stress over many months or years? Do you even know? People have studied this. We know from studies how certain activities increase in prevalence in certain situations. That's not taking away responsibility from people, that's accepting reality. We can still hold mothers responsible for getting children in an unsafe environment.

How can you justly hold someone responsible for something their environment is making them do?

But we can't create a system where that won't happen,

But from your first post that sounds like something we absolutely can do.

Didn't you say that as soon as things stabilise around them and they feel safe again the behaviours go away.?

So can't we, according to your earlier post, just create a system with the requisite stability?

 

[DrZoidberg]

You're mixing ideas. We can hold people responsible for their actions, even though people are effected by what happens around them. Take you for instance, wouldn't you rather have been a rockstar or a wealthy playboy living the dream? I'm just assuming you're not now. Sorry if you actually are these things. We all need to deal with the hand that we've been dealt. People handle themselves differently well under stress. Do you really have as a cool head under stress as you do when you're not? How about prolonged stress over many months or years? Do you even know? People have studied this. We know from studies how certain activities increase in prevalence in certain situations. That's not taking away responsibility from people, that's accepting reality. We can still hold mothers responsible for getting children in an unsafe environment.

How can you justly hold someone responsible for something their environment is making them do?

This actually should be obvious to anybody. The fact that you don't think it's obvious is down to Christian brainwashing. We're so steeped with old Roman Christian jurisprudence that we forget that we fail to realise that it doesn't make sense. It's not just you, it's the entire western world. It took me many years to unlearn. Our Christian culture feeds us with the idea that we have, what Christian philosophers call "free will". I'm not going to go into the free will debate now. But within Christianity it has special meaning. The ancient Greeks realised that people aren't rational. And we've (humanity) have spent countless tomes of books trying to explain human nature. We're weird. It's everything from cognitive biases to hormone fluctuations.

Christian jurisprudence rests on this idea that a healthy and normal human is free from any compulsion. That's ludicrous. Of course we're not. Nobody is. And that's where we get idea that if you are mentally ill somehow, (ie not free from all compulsion) you shouldn't be punished, because you couldn't help it. The insanity plea. The ancient pagans would have laughed at us. Anybody not steeped in Christian philosophy would laugh at us. Who cares if they can be held responsible according to some convoluted Christian theological argument that didn't even make sense to the Romans?

All we need to establish that society somehow improves if we punish people for it. If yes, then we should. If not, then no. If we punish this in that way do they stop doing whatever.

Humans have babies because it's in our genetic programming. A species that hasn't got this programming die out. It's as simple as that. People who think it's a conscious choice they made when deciding to have a baby are deluded, and have made an after the fact argumentation for it. All the evidence suggests it. People do not have babies when it's practical or convenient to have them. So punishing people for having babies is like punishing people for breathing. They're not going to stop, no matter what hoops we put in their way.

 

[Derec]

Humans have babies because it's in our genetic programming. A species that hasn't got this programming die out. It's as simple as that. People who think it's a conscious choice they made when deciding to have a baby are deluded, and have made an after the fact argumentation for it. All the evidence suggests it. People do not have babies when it's practical or convenient to have them. So punishing people for having babies is like punishing people for breathing. They're not going to stop, no matter what hoops we put in their way.

That's nonsense. Human beings can make choices. Many people make the choice to delay having children or avoid them altogether.
These migrants are making the poor choice to have all these children and then want the EU to take them all in "because the children are suffering". But EU is not responsible for them breeding like rabbits in the middle of a fucking civil war!

 

[laughing dog]

Humans have babies because it's in our genetic programming. A species that hasn't got this programming die out. It's as simple as that. People who think it's a conscious choice they made when deciding to have a baby are deluded, and have made an after the fact argumentation for it. All the evidence suggests it. People do not have babies when it's practical or convenient to have them. So punishing people for having babies is like punishing people for breathing. They're not going to stop, no matter what hoops we put in their way.

That's nonsense. Human beings can make choices. Many people make the choice to delay having children or avoid them altogether.
These migrants are making the poor choice to have all these children and then want the EU to take them all in "because the children are suffering". But EU is not responsible for them breeding like rabbits in the middle of a fucking civil war!

More hysterical crapola. The refugees are leaving their homes because of war. They want a safe and stable place to live where they have a chance of living a decent life.

The EU is not responsible for the plight of refugees, regardless of whether the refugees have children or not. I realize that this may be difficult for people who think like you to comprehend, but humane people should feel sympathy for anyone in this situation, and try to help them reach their reasonable goals.

 

[ksen]

Some might say that it's more rational to have children in a relatively safe refugee camp than in the middle of a warzone and with ISIS nearby.

 

[credoconsolans]

Some might say that it's more rational to have children in a relatively safe refugee camp than in the middle of a warzone and with ISIS nearby.

It's MORE rational, but only like 1% more rational.

 

[credoconsolans]

It should be. Studies show children do best in a stable environment.

Again, in the real world, we deal with how people actually behave, not how we'd like them to behave.

Yep, we have to deal with stupid people making stupid decisions who then ask for help with the results of their stupid actions.

It's like dealing with children who don't know any better, except they're adults and should.

So they should expect a lot of negative attitudes toward them and their idiocies.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Anne Frank was born during the worst depression in history in a time when people were crazy. One could predict the outcome of her life with some accuracy. Tragic. However, her parents were right that she should be born. And the world is better off for her being alive.

 

[laughing dog]

Again, in the real world, we deal with how people actually behave, not how we'd like them to behave.

Yep, we have to deal with stupid people making stupid decisions who then ask for help with the results of their stupid actions.

It's like dealing with children who don't know any better, except they're adults and should.

Are you saying that people who flee for lives from violent wars because they are in danger for the lives are somehow stupid?

So they should expect a lot of negative attitudes toward them and their idiocies.

Only from the short-sighted, the hard-hearted and moralizing hypocrites.

 

[Underseer]

Anne Frank was born during the worst depression in history in a time when people were crazy. One could predict the outcome of her life with some accuracy. Tragic. However, her parents were right that she should be born. And the world is better off for her being alive.

Her parents should have known better.

I am ashamed to admit that I exist. I have ancestors who procreated during the Great Depression. I should not even be here.

I'm sure every right winger posting here had ancestors who were wealthy during the Great Depression, and thus they deserve to exist.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Humans have babies because it's in our genetic programming. A species that hasn't got this programming die out. It's as simple as that. People who think it's a conscious choice they made when deciding to have a baby are deluded, and have made an after the fact argumentation for it. All the evidence suggests it. People do not have babies when it's practical or convenient to have them. So punishing people for having babies is like punishing people for breathing. They're not going to stop, no matter what hoops we put in their way.

That's nonsense. Human beings can make choices. Many people make the choice to delay having children or avoid them altogether.
These migrants are making the poor choice to have all these children and then want the EU to take them all in "because the children are suffering". But EU is not responsible for them breeding like rabbits in the middle of a fucking civil war!

Don't you have any vices? Do you go to the gym everyday? Do you only eat healthy food? Do you waste money on things you don't need? Have you turned down a lucrative job because it wouldn’t make you happy?

Happiness is how our genes control us. Do what the genes want = happiness. Otherwise = anxiety, sadness and emotional numbness.

The less people have the more we fall back on basic needs. And fundamentaly humans are baby making machines. The less we have the more we'll be prone to making babies. The less we have and the more shit life is the more babies will be the only source of joy.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Some might say that it's more rational to have children in a relatively safe refugee camp than in the middle of a warzone and with ISIS nearby.

And how exactly can they calculate nine months earlier that they could be in the exact safe place to have the baby? Should they also somehow arrive there after six months if they can actually predict it will arrive prematurely.

 

[Arctish]

Does anyone else keep hearing Jeff Goldblum in their heads?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMjQ3hA9mEA

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Does anyone else keep hearing Jeff Goldblum in their heads?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMjQ3hA9mEA

Now I do.

 

[credoconsolans]

Yep, we have to deal with stupid people making stupid decisions who then ask for help with the results of their stupid actions.

It's like dealing with children who don't know any better, except they're adults and should.

Are you saying that people who flee for lives from violent wars because they are in danger for the lives are somehow stupid?

No, people who have unprotected sex while fleeing for their lives from violent wars are stupid.

So they should expect a lot of negative attitudes toward them and their idiocies.

Only from the short-sighted, the hard-hearted and moralizing hypocrites.

Or from soft-headed idiots who support anyone no matter how stupid their decision. Some of us expect people to take responsibility for their own actions and when they don't, why should we like it?