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Why Atheists Get the Idea of "Faith" Wrong

Why not "Intellect over fear" or Knowledge over fear." "Hope over fear" can work but even that takes a modicum of knowledge and reflection and awareness. Does religious faith, faith without credible evidence, include some degree of desperation and surrender? It would appear so to me. Is it like being a POW?
 
But life is short and anxious for those who forget the past, neglect the present, and fear the future. --Seneca

Man is not worried by real problems so much as by his imagined anxieties about real problems. --Epictetus

Today I escaped fear. Or no, I discarded it, because it was within me, in my own perceptions, not outside. --Marcus Aurelius
 
Thread locked while we clean up the mess of ad homs, derails and complaints about derails.

If someone is derailing a thread, you can turn the conversation back to the topic (AND DON’T QUOTE THEM!), or if it is interesting but off-topic you can copy the post and start a new thread with it, leaving a link to the new topic; or if it is ongoing and egregious, you can report it. But don’t add to it by talking about a derail and adding more off topic posts quoting the off topic posts.

Thread re-opened. Address the topic, not the character of others.
 
Why not "Intellect over fear" or Knowledge over fear." "Hope over fear" can work but even that takes a modicum of knowledge and reflection and awareness. Does religious faith, faith without credible evidence, include some degree of desperation and surrender? It would appear so to me. Is it like being a POW?

Escapism, I guess. Turning to fiction that's being presented as truth (religious organizations, priests) as a means of escaping the harsh realities of life and the world.
 
Why not "Intellect over fear" or Knowledge over fear." "Hope over fear" can work but even that takes a modicum of knowledge and reflection and awareness. Does religious faith, faith without credible evidence, include some degree of desperation and surrender? It would appear so to me. Is it like being a POW?

Escapism, I guess. Turning to fiction that's being presented as truth (religious organizations, priests) as a means of escaping the harsh realities of life and the world.
But if someone is practicing escapism, something we all do to some degree, we're aware that we are practicing escapism. We're pretending.

I watched a movie last night on Tubi, very entertaining, but I know it's all fictional. I don't think someone is practicing escapism when they tell someone else that a dead man came back to life then crawled out of his cave, then flew away like Superman. Something else is going on. The best comparison is a kid telling about Santa. The kid actually believes what he's saying.
 
Why not "Intellect over fear" or Knowledge over fear." "Hope over fear" can work but even that takes a modicum of knowledge and reflection and awareness. Does religious faith, faith without credible evidence, include some degree of desperation and surrender? It would appear so to me. Is it like being a POW?

Escapism, I guess. Turning to fiction that's being presented as truth (religious organizations, priests) as a means of escaping the harsh realities of life and the world.
But if someone is practicing escapism, something we all do to some degree, we're aware that we are practicing escapism. We're pretending.

I watched a movie last night on Tubi, very entertaining, but I know it's all fictional. I don't think someone is practicing escapism when they tell someone else that a dead man came back to life then crawled out of his cave, then flew away like Superman. Something else is going on. The best comparison is a kid telling about Santa. The kid actually believes what he's saying.

Yet here we are, we have countless people who do believe in a literal afterlife, a heaven, a God who answers prayers, angels and demons, that Jesus died for our sins, Mohammad is a prophet of God, etc, etc....
 
I think people do think thier escape is reality.

Taylor Swift and her 'Swifties'. The Beatles in the day.

I listeened to an interview with a daytime soap actor who said people walk up to him on the street and talk like he is the chaacter he played.

Or Leonard Nemoy's book I Am Not Spock.

I remember an old SNL skit where Shatner playing himself told a group of Trekies to 'get a life' that it was fiction.


There was a minor shit storm. He was messing with people 's self and group identity.

 
I think people do think thier escape is reality.

Like the kid who thinks Santa is real there are no doubt "adults" who's brains work identically. How such conditions continues to occur into adulthood is a good whodunnit for neurobiologists. Honestly, where is it written that at age 18 we automatically start functioning on a higher cognitive level? It isn't. That kid who still believes sincerely in Santa obviously hasn't acquired sufficient experiences to know otherwise, but his behavior is identical to an adult who believes in a literal Superman from his bible.

we have countless people who do believe in a literal afterlife, a heaven, a God who answers prayers, angels and demons, that Jesus died for our sins, Mohammad is a prophet of God, etc, etc....

Or that the 2020 U.S. presidential election was stolen. There is obviously something different in the brains of people who are attached to these unevidenced beliefs, be they religious, political or something else such as believing in Santa. It's more than just having a conscious social identity. People who believe in a literal biblical Superman cannot be aware of the ridiculousness of their beliefs, same as the kid with his Santa. Excluding the shysters using the con simply to enrich themselves, we've all known people who hold onto these ridiculous beliefs as passionately as a kid holds onto Santa. These are not rational informed conscious decisions.
 
Don't you sort out the believers you know into (at least) two camps? One camp, which in my extended family is the larger, are the Social Christians. They may or may not attend church; they'll make the speech about the positive value of religion in public morality; they grew up in a setting where religious belief was a sign that you were 'proper' and 'upright'; challenging a religious narrative is to be avoided always, because it is a sign of being either offensive or 'radical' or both. They want to believe, but I do not hear them discussing religion as a factor in their daily lives. The smaller group would be Eric Hoffer's True Believers, which range all the way up to zealots. This group probably actually reads scripture; their bookshelves probably contain popular titles like the Left Behind series or the Purpose-Filled Life books; if they aspire to deeper sources they have annotated Bibles and scholarly works of theology. This crowd uses the religious reasoning that has been commented on in the last 800 (or is it 80,000) posts to this thread.
I know a lot of nominal Christians and am related to a fair number of same. In my experience, the ones who give voice to a belief in the absolute reality of the invisible characters and locales that make up the faith are the minority. (Unfortunately, they are apt to go along with the oppressive political positions held by the True Believers.) If there is a rapture coming, you have to wonder how many of the social Christians will be stuck with me, looking up at the sky as the neighborhood proselytizers go sailing up to meet Jesus -- assuming they don't hit a windmill blade on the way up.
 
See the attached photocopy of my college diploma. Note that I graduated "Summa Cum Laude" which in English is "with highest honors." I earned a perfect 4.0 GPA. It proves my outstanding ability to learn and know. I don't expect you to recognize that fact, of course.
This has been bugging me since I read it.

It's simply not true, and represents a serious misunderstanding of what a college degree actually is.

A college degree isn't proof that the holder is outstanding in their ability to learn and know, it's proof that they're not necessarily completely incompetent at so doing, within the narrow confines of the subject(s) in which the degree was awarded.

A 4.0 GPA implies test scores above 93%; A student who routinely scores 95% on every test is, in his academic setting considered as good as any other student, and is ranked at the very top of the school.

But an engineer working (for example) at Boeing, whose work is correct and accurate 95% of the time, is a total screwup, and will spend his very brief career explaining to the boss why one in every twenty of the designs he signs off on are, in fact, substandard.

The pass mark in real workplaces is 100%. That's not the mark for being the best; It's the minimum mark for being there at all.

Of course, nobody's perfect; the way to achieve 100% is to collaborate (in college, this is called "cheating") by looking at other people's work, and using their answers to show you where yours are going wrong.

The guy with the brand new shiny degree "Summa Cum Laude" in Aviation Engineering from MIT, arriving for his first day at Boeing, will find himself the least qualified and least respected member of the engineering team. He's not there to show the other engineers what outstanding knowledge he has; He's there to start to learn how to do Aviation Engineering in real aircraft, with real engineers looking over his shoulder to make sure each and every one of his mistakes is caught and corrected.

His degree gets him in the door, as a person who is fairly likely not to become a complete liability to the team, and who might one day learn enough to be useful.

And far more important than his degree, or his knowledge, or the things he gets right, is his attitude (particularly when he gets things wrong).

If his response to being corrected by a more experienced engineer is to wave his diploma and say "This proves my outstanding ability!", then he's going to have a very brief career indeed.

Humility is far more valuable as a skill than anything you could learn in college. Indeed, the whole structure of colleges seems to be counterproductive in teaching this valuable skill to its most lauded graduates.

Your degree whispers "outstanding ability to learn", but it's drowned out by your ego yelling "I don't want or need to learn a damn thing anymore!"

If it's not telling us the truth about you, then you should definitely try to rein it in so we can make out what actual abilities you have, other than just the demonstrated ability to brag about surprisingly mundane achievements.
 
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