Why Atheists Get the Idea of "Faith" Wrong

[abaddon]

Posting a transcript sounds like a desperate cry for attention.

I think it's more like a cry for respect. He thinks the atheists are attacking his intelligence.

My impression is he's an intelligent person. But, unfortunately, the stuff about credentials is another instance of incomprehension -- meaning, that's not to the point at all.

The whole thread is not to the point. Why? Because of @Unknown Soldier's extreme self-defensiveness.

To be in defense-mode is to be suspicious and to be suspicious is to project bad motives into other's minds. And to do that is to make the actual intent of their words invisible to him and that makes rightly understanding people impossible. Which makes constructing apt arguments against their ideas impossible.

For him to make an apt argument against claims of "theists have no evidence", the only reasonable thing to do is first ASK why some atheists say that. It's after he knows (instead of guesses) why they say that that he can more skillfully criticize it.

------

Hint to Unknown Soldier: Ask an atheist who says "no evidence", "why do you say 'no evidence' instead of 'poor evidence'?"

Don't assume you know why until after asking and getting an answer.

 

[steve_bank]

He has some issues, maybe we should just let this all go. Flogging a dead horse.

 

[bilby]

It proves my outstanding ability to learn and know.

...about Business Administration.

So you're a glorified accountant and junior manager.

Do you have any certificates that prove your outstanding ability to demonstrate humility and the limitations of your education?

Didn't think so.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It is interesting you felt compelled to state that you took a physics class in college and show your degree when you also felt that saying that “ten-year-olds know some science” was pertinent to the discussion at hand.

Either understanding science is something so trivial an elementary school student can do it or perhaps it take some training and exercise to develop an expertise in it such that you might need to respect the opinions of those who have done more than simply take a physics class in college.

 

[steve_bank]

Soldier, go here if you want to discus energy. Please read and think before responding.

Energy And Fields - What are they?

In terms of philosophy and science fiction energy is anything you imagine it to be. Not really. Energy is the ability to do work; That is, to accelerate a mass, or to lift it against the acceleration due to the local gravitational field. It's a force applied over a distance. I think they...

iidb.org

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Argument from credentials,

Sheesh, where do I start? First, it was you who started out with an "argument from credentials." (See post #767.) And you did so without one person showing interest. I, on the other hand, was asked by Pood what I've done. I answered his question with documentation to prove what I was saying was true. Your claims have only your word as evidence. And who was it who was criticizing the religious for the low quality of their evidence?

I have a college degree therefore I am right.

I see you have contempt for higher education which doesn't surprise me. And you fail to understand the whole point of college degrees; they serve as proof that the person holding them has demonstrated in an accredited school her or his knowledge. So contrary to your contempt, degrees do indicate that a person is likely right.

Golly, haven;t heard that one before.

Again, you've heard it before because you've done it before.

A lot of people get engineering and science degrees, and a lot of them can't figure out how to do engineering and science.

Are you out too prove it?

A guy who was hired to run a group I was in at Lockheed had undergrad degrees in math and engineering, and masters in business and optics. He was clueless.

People who live in glass houses...

Posting a transcript...

I see you can't tell the difference between a transcript and a diploma.

...sounds like a desperate cry for attention.

Again, I was answering a question. Any jealous fits on your part in reaction to my answer are your own problems.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Posting a transcript sounds like a desperate cry for attention.

I think it's more like a cry for respect. He thinks the atheists are attacking his intelligence.

My impression is he's an intelligent person. But, unfortunately, the stuff about credentials is another instance of incomprehension -- meaning, that's not to the point at all.

The whole thread is not to the point. Why? Because of @Unknown Soldier's extreme self-defensiveness.

To be in defense-mode is to be suspicious and to be suspicious is to project bad motives into other's minds. And to do that is to make the actual intent of their words invisible to him and that makes rightly understanding people impossible. Which makes constructing apt arguments against their ideas impossible.

For him to make an apt argument against claims of "theists have no evidence", the only reasonable thing to do is first ASK why some atheists say that. It's after he knows (instead of guesses) why they say that that he can more skillfully criticize it.

------

Hint to Unknown Soldier: Ask an atheist who says "no evidence", "why do you say 'no evidence' instead of 'poor evidence'?"

Don't assume you know why until after asking and getting an answer.

Bad, again, I posted my diploma to answer a question posed to me by Pood. You're either not paying attention or deliberately twisting the facts. In either case, what you've posted here is an ad hominem. Did you know that ad hominems are mistakes in logic?

 

[steve_bank]

In these times a diploma posted on a forum like this is meaningless.

I go by the quality of what people post over time.You clearly know little science. Go over to the philosophy thread if you want to learn a little science.

Throughout my career once and a while I got a reality check, the vast majority have no clue as to how the technology they use works.

Energy and work are at the foundation of all applied science. If you took a college level calus based intro physics course and did not cover work and energy you need to ask for a refund.

Anybody these days can get a degree. Anybody can get a PHD.


Go over to the philosophy thread and demonstrate your faculty with science.

 

[pood]

Bad, again, I posted my diploma to answer a question posed to me by Pood. You're either not paying attention or deliberately twisting the facts. In either case, what you've posted here is an ad hominem. Did you know that ad hominems are mistakes in logic?

Let me point out that you got the ad hom ball rolling by suggesting that Steve could not understand your arguments beause of poor eyesight. Also, it was you who got the credentials ball rolling by asking Steve, “What have you really done,” plainly implying that you think he is lying about his credentials. That’s why I asked you what you had done. It was entirely a rhetorical question, a way of showing you that two can play the game that you started.

 

[pood]

And you fail to understand the whole point of college degrees; they serve as proof that the person holding them has demonstrated in an accredited school her or his knowledge.

In reality bunchs of people with degrees and even advance degrees often don’t know their ass from their elbows. And some of the most intelligent and accomplished people are college dropouts.

 

[steve_bank]

Adding to Soldier.

There are some on the forum who know more about science than I do in some areas, like cosmology, QM, and relativity.

That fact does not bother me, what others post is an opportunity to learn something new.

Sometimes I post something somebody else corrects me on. That does not bother me either. I'd rather be criticized than stay ignorant.

You are truth seeker? I don't see it.

I understand clearly as do others. You are not listening and refuting our debunking your reasoning.

Yes we know religious offer evidence, they always do on the forum. If at all possible tell us something we do not know.

As a seeker of da truth and nothin' but da truth, is it truth that religious and scientific conclusions are equally credible?

The image I have of you is an adult holding your head with a hand while you are wildly swinging and screaming hitting nothing.

Right now I am coding Discrete Fourier Transforms, mathematics. I heard it said years back the best entertainment is learning something new. A good philosophy.

If my eyes were betterr I'd delve into relativity and cosmology.

Red any science lately Soldier? I mean mathematical science books not the net stuff.

I always had a pile of books I was going through. Never played video games.

I eagerly awaitt your scintalting inciteful commntray on the philosphy thread.

 

[bilby]

contrary to your contempt, degrees do indicate that a person is likely right

...if making claims in the very narrow field in which their degree was awarded.

Business Administration isn't physics, and a degree in the former says bupkis about a person's abilities with the latter.

 

[steve_bank]

My doctor says I qualify for a visual disability but I have not filed for it. I walk with a cane but have blance issues form nerve damage. I don't whine about it and don't now anybody who does about their disabilities.

I went through rehab ina nursing home followed by assisted living. I knew and know people with mild to severe disabilities in my senior building.

So Soldier you will not get any sympathy points from me.

As your tag is Unknown Soldier are you a disabled combat vet? A good friend I had in assisted living got his feet shot up in VN and had hearing loss. A Marine I also took meals with went through drug addiction and homelessness, and worked his way out.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I believe their argument is...

Perhaps you should stop concentrating on your beliefs, and find out for sure what their argument is by, for example, paying attention to what they say?

Evidence is, generally, a better guide to reality than belief.

Naw, I've heard all types of evidence are equal, even if not the same in manners of quality, veracity, legitimacy, or even existence.

 

[lostone]

I believe their argument is...

Perhaps you should stop concentrating on your beliefs, and find out for sure what their argument is by, for example, paying attention to what they say?

Evidence is, generally, a better guide to reality than belief.

Naw, I've heard all types of evidence are equal, even if not the same in manners of quality, veracity, legitimacy, or even existence.

I don't know where you heard that, but if you really want a laugh, some of the atheists here say evidence isn't evidence!

The quality of the evidence is quite often challenged in all academic disciplines. One of the criteria of the quality of the evidence is that is must be repeatable, universally observed, and able to survive rigorous criticism from a hostile audience.

 

[pood]

I don't know where you heard that, but if you really want a laugh, some of the atheists here say evidence isn't evidence!

Which ones? The bible says that faith itself is the evidence. In that case, yes, atheists would deny that faith is evidence, but that’s not the same as denying that evidence is evidence. As to evidence itself, there’s good and bad evidence. When a young earth creationist says he has evidence that the earth is 6,000 years old and then trots it out, it’s really bad evidence, if you can call it evidence at all.

 

[Swammerdami]

I apologize to one and all, as my post appears to be off-topic. I'll hide my inappropriate comments in a spoiler pending hard-delete by a Moderator.

Spoiler

Something this message board has shown me is that some atheists are as blindly dogmatic as the theists they ridicule. OP is correct to point out misconceptions about faith.

There are various things to say on this topic; and obviously faith is often misplaced. I'll just say that religious faith -- even when it is faith in a fiction -- can sometimes make someone a better and happier person.

Religious faith can take various forms, and may require a "suspension of disbelief." Some smart people may deliberately ignore that the Christian salvation myth is probably fictional in order to achieve -- through a process like self-hypnosis -- the well-being that faith can provide. I suspect that a reason for Christianity's success is that the "letting Christ enter our soul" experience happens to resonate with human psyche.

 

[DBT]

That faith can bring comfort and meaning to the believer is not in question.

 

[pood]

Something this message board has shown me is that some atheists are as blindly dogmatic as the theists they ridicule. OP is correct to point out misconceptions about faith.

There are various things to say on this topic; and obviously faith is often misplaced. I'll just say that religious faith -- even when it is faith in a fiction -- can sometimes make someone a better and happier person.

Religious faith can take various forms, and may require a "suspension of disbelief." Some smart people may deliberately ignore that the Christian salvation myth is probably fictional in order to achieve -- through a process like self-hypnosis -- the well-being that faith can provide. I suspect that a reason for Christianity's success is that the "letting Christ enter our soul" experience happens to resonate with human psyche.

All of the above is true, yet has nothing to do with the argument in the OP.

 

[Thomas II]

That faith can bring comfort and meaning to the believer is not in question.